HPP

This is a debate that is ongoing in most forums Honda or not. But the general consensus is never use them. I will install them for customers, but I will only do so with first suggesting to not to use them. I do not like them, and will never recommend to anyone to install a non dampened crank pulley.

It is less about balance, and more about the dampening the dampened pulley's provide. I'd think twice about using them.


I've replied to your email.

HPP

Yup, and yeah I remember. What is your time frame for a job? I am not hiring now, and not sure if/when I would be looking to do so, but I will definitely keep you in mind.

swift22

thanks so much Razzi!!! I will so let you drive the ol' 5sp legend for this LMAO! yeah i figured every shop should have a real mechanic/engine specialist to bolt on kits at the very least.

swift22

momin*HPP*

I am looking right now but trying to keep busy if you know what i mean. Tax returns are going towards bills and my tools. Then the guy doing the turbo kit has a solid job outta chicago so he is funding the machining etc. I use contacts to do my outside work. So right now i have a good friend in NY cutting the flanges we need so we can get them cheaper in bulk. I also work with a great company in town here that does ceramic coating and a special ThinFilm coating on the intercooler piping in any color to keep heat down. The car should be ready by May 10th for HIN in chicago with the kit.

But yeah i would like to get settled in at a shop in April..by then the snow should be gone!!! Like any business as i am sure you know you need to create an extra product or service or increase volume of customers to hire an employee. So I understand with economy etc you may not be hiring now.

Ben

Razzi

here's the number for the West Side place swift (651) 488-2555
no guarantees but i will keep my eyes out for any shop looking for an extra set of hands

GLowrdr

Hey Ken - next time you guys come over, I outta grab your camera card and get some of those pictures from ya. Hopefully that's the last time I will ever need to see some of those areas of my car..lol


Hey HPP - you should make me an exhaust, and as a favor, I would show it off to everyone for you...lol

Rims and exhaust.. it's pretty bad when I got no money burning a hole in my pocket. (Does that mean it's more of a smoldering? )

Razzi

few random pics

dan vs 11mm plastic tabs

it's all about technique man

notice the strongbow, it's like his achilles heel

brian trying to pry the bumper off

meanwhile dan wandered and snapped photos of cars



sadly the only pic of george's baby

with his help it was smooth sailing

half and half

all done

josh had been grilling me all day about senseless stuff, so i zipped up my hoodie and went emo

asujosh1

LOL, that's some funny shit Razzi!

That's funny about the pulley's, I have never heard that from any of the people here on the forum, and quite a few of them have it installed. Of all of the people on this site that have it installed, I have not heard of any of them having any issues because of them.

underst8

Yeah, I mean I would avoid an ebay pulley but I feel pretty safe with the Unorthodox Racing pulley.

Ken, nice job with the uploads dude, I like the pics a lot. U got the one of Brian's car with the trunk closed after the lights install?

swift22

I am in talks with unorthodox right now about cam gears for another engine and will quiz them a little bit. My understanding is that a standard crank pully offers dampening and IS balanced. So you put a lighter pully on that is not balance?? Sure your motor would be fine day to day but it MAY shorten the lifespan and cause problems in higher RPM band. I ran a super lightwieght underdrive pulley once and i had nice torque but topend was GONE. GONE.

thanks for the number razzi!! and love the group pics and effort!!!!!

HPP

It is not something that kills motors quickly, it is something that will take it's toll slowly.


It has nothing to do with who makes it, it has to do with the balancing and the rubber dampening within the pulley.


Pretty close.

I am fairly concerned with you guys being OK with running these pulleys, so I dug up a couple threads/articles regarding them. I would HIGHLY suggest not to use them. Read the stuff I am posting below and I think you may think twice before you bolt it up to your crank.

Here is a thread on the Supra Forums regarding dampened vs. non dampened(specifically the Unorthodox). You may need to log in for this, but not sure:

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...t=crank+pulley


I am attaching a write up written by a respected NSX race car driver/builder/guru.

Courtesy of DALMotorsports:

Balancer- I’m not sure if this issue has been previously addressed, but I have seen many harmonic balancer failures with other NSX’s, and one of our Cup cars. Some engines are internally balanced and some use the balancer to counterweight the rotating assembly of the pistons, rods and crank. Externally balanced engines need a balancer. Internally balanced engines do not… hold on and read more. The NSX is very well balanced from Honda, but can be improved even more. On an internally balanced engine like the NSX, the balancer is not really a balancer and serves no balancing function. It’s a pulley that’s weighted like a flywheel. Flywheel weight is used to retain load torque when on or off the throttle by utilizing the inertia weight that wants to keep spinning. but it takes more torque to get and keep that weight spinning, thus sacrifices overall torque and throttle response. Like a weed eater, it spins at high RPM with little torque and would stop if it encountered a finger sized twig. If you put a flywheel weight on it, it would torque through that twig… but may need more torque to get to speed. The other purpose of the Balancer is to absorb harmonic vibrations, tiny vibrations are measured in frequency like sound, and all high rpm motors will have increased activity at a specific frequency. This harmonic frequency can do damage similar to the results seen from detonation or cavitation, or simply explained as more damage then seems feasible. The way the balancer combats this Harmonic is by insulating it with rubber. The balancer is made of three parts; an outer and inner ring pressed together with a thin rubber ring sandwiched between. Similar to cutting a brake rotor with a band wrapped around it. This is a low cost way of combating harmonics within our rpm range. You can also minimize harmonics within this range by doing a good job balancing… as Honda does. I think this balancer feature is there as insurance incase time or unknowns change the tolerance of the internal balance. Many race engines eliminate this weight as a performance gain, without problems. In fact other factors such as a flywheel, clutch, or driveshaft. Would have a greater impact then this balancer. In any pro level race car, this balancer would be replaced with something more reliable. I can tell you that all of the Famous super NSX’s you know have replaced or modified this part to be solid. On the World Challenge engine, I turn down the outer ring and the compliant rubber, machine a high tolerance centering lip, tap holes and bolt an off the shelf 8-rib Vortech pulley for a solid part.
The reason- Heavy loads produce heat, heat melts the rubber and causes the OE balancer to fail. The DAL Motorsports cup engine had a balancer fail because the alternator belt was tightened too much. It will also eat up more horsepower. The tighter you go the more heat you will produce. This is even more common with the supercharged NSX’s everyone knows that when the belt isn’t tight the SC slips and wont make as much boost. I tend to only tighten the belt until it stops making noise, and if supercharged I tighten the belt while on the dyno, until I stop seeing a rise in boost. I then feel how tight that is for the next adjustment without a dyno. If you are doing this without the dyno, lean towards too loose rather then too tight. In fact tonight I need to make an adjustment because my wife’s car is screeching at start-up. Another way to increase your belt strength is to go with more ribs. The cheapest way for minimal improvement would be to use the Goodyear Gatorback belt. They have a patent on a ribbed design that gives more grip then the rest of the brands. Most of the failures cause minimal damage; Balancer, belt, and usually some cosmetic damage to the front cover… But recently the balancer on Wei Shen’s car (NSXCA President), separated in the opposite direction towards the engine (Likely had something to do being in a high G turn). Well it went through the plastic front cover and made the timing belt skip, bending valves, hurting pistons, etc. I wont divulge the actual cost, but I will say that if you are unfortunate this lesson can cost you over $10,000 to fix it the right way.

*****************

ls1sizzledizzle

Looks good Brian. I'll be honest, I didn't think there would be much different when I saw them in the garage. Looks way better! Now you just have to figure out how to convert your TL from wrong wheel drive. lol

GLowrdr

^^^^ That's my buddy Luke. He's the guy with the badass firebird I think I've told you guys about. He's got one of those cars that's more engine than car currently.

Makes my car look stupid whenever we are zipping around town together

asujosh1

So, based on what I am reading, the Honda motors are well balanced and the balancer on the pulley is an insurance policy for your motor in case things get out of whack internally and it needs a bit more balancing? I read the thread on the Supra forums about the pulleys, but I can honestly say that I do not know nearly as much about that engine as I do the Honda/Acura, and I do not know how well balanced the engine is internally to know if it is just a case of wrong part on the engine or not.

If a race engine can handle it reliably, I think my street motor can deal with it.

I have posted a thread and poll in this forum asking how many people have a pulley and how many have experienced any issues due to it, and I have also contacted the local vendor for the pulleys on the site (Excelerate) to see if he has ever heard of any issues.

My thought is that I will hear back that no one has had any issues because I have not been able to find any by searching on this forum and people on here don't have any problem voicing issues they have.

asujosh1

Here is a post by THE resident guru on our motor and car in general.

GLowrdr

I think fsttyms1 is a liar.

I've never had a car worth putting pulleys on - but I know quite a few friends that are pushing 400+ HP in firebirds and mustangs that all swear by the pulleys. I've never once heard of this concern.

Granted - I am no grease monkey myself, but I do get around the block enough to hear the complaints when they are there (and my understanding is they are not)

Is there a risk? Probably. But then again there is a risk everytime I go WOT because I like the sound my intake makes. I don't get my oil analysed, so there is a risk that I'm taking since it may tell me my car is going to blow up soon by having 50% oil / 50% block material.

I'm gonna do it - not to discredit anything you've said HPP, but I don't see this as an issue of catastrophic proportions as it seems to sound. You have some very valid points, but I think nobody is a clear winner in this one - so we've all got to just pick a side since you're either in or out - there is no half pulley to mull over.

underst8

from the DALMotorsports essay posted above: "Many race engines eliminate this weight as a performance gain, without problems. In fact other factors such as a flywheel, clutch, or driveshaft. Would have a greater impact then this balancer. In any pro level race car, this balancer would be replaced with something more reliable. I can tell you that all of the Famous super NSX’s you know have replaced or modified this part to be solid. On the World Challenge engine, I turn down the outer ring and the compliant rubber, machine a high tolerance centering lip, tap holes and bolt an off the shelf 8-rib Vortech pulley for a solid part."

This seems to support the use of a solid aftermarket pulley.

HPP

There are valid points on both sides of the discussion, I'm not denying that. I just usually stay on the safer side of things. If there is a risk that can possibly take out my crank, I stay away because when you have crank issues, you end up with other issues and large labor/parts charges(or in my case, a pain in the a$$ time consumer).

But the DAL quote above isn't noting they use something more reliable because they are better for what we are talking about. It's the fact that the stock unit when old or put through many extreme heat cycles from racing is prone to failure(coming apart).

And race motors get rebuild reasonably often, so it's not a apples to apples comparison.

I'm not trying to say one is the absolute answer, I'm just trying to warn against possible scenarios. I'm generally more conservative when it comes to my motor and my $.

Razzi

well you being a professional mechanic i can see why. i wouldnt want my customer's cars blowing up.

no i dont have that pic dan, i dunno what happened

and welcome to the other side of the pond luke

asujosh1

Hell, aside from the costs, I would love to get a chance to tear into that motor, stroke it and add some much needed torque to it. Lighten and further balance the crank, lightweight rods and pistons and a full radius valve job. If I won the lottery I would get the head ported and see what kind of juice I could pull out of this baby.

But, again, that's if cost wasn't an issue...

asujosh1

Would anyone be interested in heading up to Brainerd for a wednesday night drag session on a real track? Cost is $20 per person that wants to race and $5 for those that just want to watch.

asujosh1

Ohh, and another thing, I am looking for a place around here to do a horsepower shoutout on the dyno, shoot me a PM if you are interested in it. Hopefully we would be able to get a deal on dyno time if we brought a group.

GLowrdr

I'd probably be down for both. Although the Brainard on Wednesday might be a bit tricky - that's a haul unless there is some time off work involved somewhere.

Hey - may want to check out at raceway park - I think they have spectator drags too, and it's not quite so far away. Would be on a Sunday night instead, although there are some special events that take place on fridays and sat.

As for the dyno - I will check with my buddy Luke. He's with a car club MNFBody, and they do fairly regular dyno sessions. Since they are a club, they get good deals from local vendors/dealerships, as well as they have guys in the club that specialize in computer work and such.

I'll ask - maybe we can be friends with the americans.. lol

ls1sizzledizzle

Thanks for the welcome. I don't think I will be on here to much as I need to attend to the local muscle forums. I just wanted to register to chat with you guys when Brians sends me a link.


As far as underdrive pulleys go, I say go for it. As with any performance part, it will make the motor react different than the engineers intended. I have an SLP underdivre on my LS1 which is a balancer/pulley combo. It is a very nice piece, even better than the oem part. I would be more worried about how the pulley is installed.

ls1sizzledizzle

Call MAP in plymouth. I had my Trans Am dynoed there last year. I paid $40 for 3 runs and you can also have your tuner ther as well.

Here is the link
http://www.maperformance.com/store/home.php

Razzi

they dont do pulls on the weekends josh? not all of us can play GT5 and call it work

underst8

I've checked out MAP, it seems like they have some pretty intense project cars going on. Maybe we can get a group dyno session out of that place.

GLowrdr

All I can say is.. Damn. A 700 HP Eagle Talon?

Hey guys - gimme all your money and we'll see what they can turn my car into. lol

asujosh1

GT5 isn't out yet. And besides, what are you doing, playing NBA Basketball on the PS3 demo while you work?

The shootout would be on a weekend, and it is MAP that I have contacted about it. Brainerd only does the 'show up and run' thing on Wednesday nights, they have events on Fri, Sat nights.

I'll let you know what I hear back from them, hopefully it will be pretty soon.

asujosh1

Alright, heard back from the guys at MAP about a dyno day, what does everyone think about July 5 or 12? Both are Saturdays (we have any Sat to work with). Each person would get 3 pulls for $50. Winner would have a year worth of bragging rights and a large bullseye painted on their back for next year.

The plan is that we average the numbers from the three pulls and that is your value. We can break it up by 1st gen, 2nd gen (Type S and not), 3rd gen (Type S and not) and RL if anyone shows up to play with Ry4an. We would have an overall winner for the person who nets the highest average number.

Any and all betting would be for people to set up on their own.

If someone has a portable grill we could prolly BBQ in their lot while they are running cars and have a decent day of it.

Let me know if you are down

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GLowrdr

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Hey - I will check with Luke too - He may add a number to that for us, and also he can probably get a discount (unless they complain that we're all not in the club)

Either date works for me at this time. Unfortunately I won't know that far in advance - but just bring it up a few times here and there and I will not make any plans for that day.

asujosh1

From the rates provided to me, $50 for 3 pulls is a discount. Of course, if we have a good turnout, next year we can probably negotiate a better rate.

Razzi

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i'll just take josh's pull, subtract about 120 hp and call it mine. use the 50 bucks and buy some meat for the grill

ls1sizzledizzle

I'll go. Don't know if I will run the dyno as I plan to get a dyno tune around April. I'll find a mod or two to put on by July, then I will run. lol

Do I get my own class?

HPP

lol, while that is good hp, that is nothing new in the Eclipse/Talon/Laser arena. My daily driver is 571whp only because I chose a setup that isn't laggy. When Shane worked for me years ago he was over the 700whp range way back then..

MAP will treat you good, post up your whp numbers after the dyno day.

GLowrdr

Holy crap - I went onto the acura website to check on the clips I need for the bumpers and trunk. I noticed it said quantity - 10, $3.04. I was like sweet. I'll bring my 3 and change and grab some new clips.

No.... there are 10 in a bag, and they require that you buy them by the bag. 10 x 3.04 = $30.40 for a freakin bag of clips. WTF?

At that price I better count to see how many I actually need. Any ideas of where else I can find them? I'm gonna try eBay, but I'm not sure if Tim can get these for us or not. Checked the web site but didn't see anything.

GLowrdr

Damn... it still stings a little. But - I found them on eBay. I'm getting a bag of 20 for $15.00 (+3.75 shipping)

Razzi

that's why i said it's all about the techiniques man, remove em without mashin em

underst8

someone on the boards found a substitute at a hardware store that fits perfectly, is easier to remove, and is less expensive. I don't know where the post is but I'll try and find it, or i guess try searching

ls1sizzledizzle

[QUOTE=GLowrdr]Holy crap - I went onto the acura website to check on the clips I need for the bumpers and trunk. I noticed it said quantity - 10, $3.04. I was like sweet. I'll bring my 3 and change and grab some new clips.

No.... there are 10 in a bag, and they require that you buy them by the bag. 10 x 3.04 = $30.40 for a freakin bag of clips. WTF?
./QUOTE]


Just use zip ties dude.