pttl

^
You posted the same article in 2 different threads.

biker

Relative to their goal of selling 2000-3000 Equus models per year the 196 they sold last month is right on track - not sure how that could be considered a failure. Hyundai would like to play in the full size luxury flagship sedan market with the Equus - at 200-300/mo they'd be in 4th place behind the LS, 7 series and S class. Weather the Equus deserves to be in that class is debateable.

Biker, who is bored today and doesn't mind debating.

Bitmevn

5th place, behind S, LS, 7 and A8

biker

^ forgot about the A8.

YEH

How is the Genesis (sedan) a failure?

For 2010, sales of the Genesis sedan nearly hit the pre-great recession target of 20K units, making it the 3rd best selling RWD, luxury mid-size import sedan after the E Class and 5 Series (it outsold the Lexus GS by a 3x margin and continued to outsell the Infiniti M, even tho it was all new for 2010).

As for the coupe, it's a failure considering the initial sales goal, but even so, over 9K units sold in 2010 is a lot better then what Nissan did w/ the Z or Mazda w/ the RX-8.

As for the Equus, Hyundai is just trying to keep it "exclusive", just like what Acura is trying to do w/ the RL these days.

PortlandRL

My Hyundai sales chart is a bit more extensive this month as we now have full calendar year data which indicates Hyundai set a full-year sales record. Also, Genesis is celebrating 18 consecutive months of month-over-month sales increases.

As always, green equals a sales increase over the same month of the previous year. Red equals a drop and gray means no change or not applicable. December, 2010 figures are first with December, 2009 figures in parenthesis.

Full Story and Press Release

December, 2010 Sales Figures

Accent: 2,784 (4,149)
Sonata:15,964 (10,485)
Elantra: 13,096* (5,763)
Santa Fe: 5,284 (9,264)
Azera: 162 (330)
Tucson: 4,041 (903)
Veracruz: 852 (531)
Genesis: 2,423 (2,354)
Equus: 196 (n/a)

* 4,724 of these are the new 2011 body style Elantra.

Same game as before...red equals a drop and green equals an increase. C/Y 2009 results are in parenthesis. The Equus is not featured in this list as it just went on sale.

Accent: 51,975 (68,086)
Sonata: 196,623 (120,028)
Elantra: 132,246 (103,269)
Santa Fe: 76,680* (80,343)
Azera: 3,051 (3,808)
Tucson: 39,594 (15,411)
Veracruz: 8,741 (10,210)
Genesis: 29,122 (21,889)

* Considering there were several months of reduced production and then a gap of several weeks with no production as the Santa Fe was shifted to Kia's Georgia plant, I'd say it did pretty well.

Calendar Year 2010: 538,228
Calendar Year 2009: 435,064

Legend2TL

These Genesis sales figures should be a wakeup call for Acura.

pttl

Tucson: 39,594 (15,411)

That is an impressive gain.

SSFTSX

When you consider technology, free maintianance of rivals compared to RL like A6/BMW 5/MB E. It is not cheaper than its rivals despite beng car in its 7th year.
Equus is around $25K cheaper than its competitors despite having similar tech leve, optionsl and Compeletely new. Come back how Equus sale with same shape after 7 years even with $25k cheaper in its class with home delivery.

SSFTSX

Sonata miss the 200K mark in its first year. where is Chukopoi and his assurety of 200k. It was 2011 model all along in 2010.

Hapa DC5

Genesis sales should have Acura doing a double take.

Honda's CEO even admits the Sonata is a true competitor to the Accord.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Do we really want Acura to build a luxury car with a copycat design?
Sure, the Genesis looks upmarket. It looks luxurious. And it might look better than current Acura models. However, I can see a MB front grille, BMW side profile, and Infiniti rear end. If Acura is still seeking its identity, is it a good move to do the same as Hyundai, and copy designs from other cars?

Do we want an Acura luxury car that doesn't deliver top notch quality?
After sitting in a Genesis, I think in general, the build quality is good. And for most consumers looking for a budget luxury car, it's more than good enough. People in general have lower expectations for a Hyundai anyway, so people would give more praise to the Genesis. I guess "perception" is the correct word. But when you look at the small details, then I'm not sure if I want an Acura flagship to be like the Genesis. For instance, when I look into the trunk, the inner surface is quite poorly trimmed. The leather used inside the car doesn't feel as nice as other luxury cars too. Again, people buying the Genesis might not care too much. But I don't think you guys want the Acura flagship model to employ the same grade of leather?

Do we want an Acura luxury car that is 25-35% cheaper than a comparable Bimmer, MB, Lexus?
I thought we want Acura to advance and not rely on cheap pricing. If Acura does what Hyundai did to the Genesis, it will not move the brand up.

Do we want an Acura luxury car to feel and drive like a Lexus?
I'm sure most of you would agree that the best part of the Genesis is its optional V8 engine and RWD chassis. Its chassis is particularly stiff. It's really good with sound insulation and its ride is very soft - like a Lexus. Despite its RWD layout, its tuning means that it understeers early in corners; the driver is isolated from the road, again, like a Lexus. Do you guys really want that? Or do you guys prefer something that can handle well? Something that is a little bit more engaging?

biker

The Genesis reported numbers are for the sedan and coupe combined. As YEH pointed out the sedan had just under 20K sales for the year - still in 3rd behind the 5 series and E class but not that far ahead of the M. Also, with the new E coupe the E class sales numbers include both the sedan and coupe whereas till last year the coupe was reported seperately. The 5 series and E class sedans are always neck-neck, it just looks like the E class has a big lead because of the coupe.

pttl

What's wrong with paying less for more? I don't know about you but I like to get a bargain. Do you like paying more for less?
Do you really believe a BMW and an Audi are worth the upcharge? As you mentioned...perception is everything, and everyone has their own perceptions as to what is and isn't valuable. Some people will pay thousands more just for a badge...some won't. Some people think the very definition of the word luxury is a soft, isolated, quiet ride.

I don't think anyone wants Acura to be "like Huyndai". But we don't want variations on the same theme over and over and we don't want assed alternatives either.

YEH

Also, have to keep in mind that only 250 or so Hyundai dealerships met the requirements to sell the Equus.

In addition, these dealerships got an initial allotment of either 2 or 3 Equus sedans (w/ 1 being kept as the demo) and considering that the Equus only started to hit the dealer lots around mid-December, 196 Equus sold isn't bad.

The 2011 Sonata only started to hit dealer lots partway into February (and at limited supply); w/ a full year at normal supply, it would have hit 200K.

Honda seems to have no problem using the BMW greenhouse/Hofmeister kink on the Accord (or the new Civic), not to mention Audi (MDX, RDX) or Volvo (CR-Z) style taillights on its CUVs.

As for the "MB" grill, pretty much all luxury grills have either vertical or horizontal slats (or for sports trims, mesh).

Take a look at the grills on Lexus models; vertical slats on the GS, IS, RX, etc. similar to Buick, Jaguar or horizontal slats such as on the LS (stick a vertical divider down the LS grill and you get an MB grill).

The LS430, in particular, was considered an S-Class clone; it looked so much like the S-Class that the head of Mercedes design at the time, Bruno Sacco, made public comments as to such - which is a rarity in the auto design world.

The same applies to Infiniti; some of their models such as I30 and G20 had grills which looked like the came off of a Jaguar.

Going "conservative" in design early on when launching a premium/luxury brand is a true and tried strategy since prospective buyers are usually unwilling to try a new luxury brand/new luxury model and a new/unfamiliar design language at the same time.

Isn't it already at that level (well, that is if one considers the RL to be a "flagship" sedan)?

And that's w/ incorporating the added cost of a separate brand/dealer network (if Hyundai launched a separate brand, the MSRP on the Genesis and Equus would go up by $5-7K).

It worked for Lexus w/ the LS400; having an initial MSRP of $35K.

The price on the Genesis will see a bump w/ the 5.0 Tau and the next gen Genesis (and Equus) will see a price bump.

Depends on which Lexus you are talking about.

The last thing Genesis owners would say about the ride of the Genesis is "soft" (tho, they do applaud it for being a great highway cruiser).

The 2009 Genesis had handling similar to that of the Lexus GS and E Class; a bit sporty but nothing like the E60 5 Series.

Since then, Hyundai has tightened up the handling on the 2011 Genesis; people who own the 2011 and had previously owned the 2009 have commented on the upgraded handling.

And for those who own both the Genesis and F10 5 Series say the diff. has narrowed (esp. w/ BMW ruining the steering feel on the F10, and making the F10 5 Series handle more like the 7 than the 3).

For the 2012 refresh, the Genesis w/ the 5.0 Tau will also reportedly be available in an R-Spec version w/ a sports tuned suspension.

PortlandRL

Not likely. Nothing else seems to have worked...what makes you think a 1425% difference in sales between the two cars will? Hell...Hyundai sells more Genesis in a month than Acura sells RLs in a whole year.

PortlandRL

Well I guess that's it...they failed. I presume we'll be getting an announcement any moment now that the CEO has hung himself and the company will be leaving the country.

With the Turbo out now and the Hybrid due any day along with a healthy supply, breaking 200,000 next year is almost a certainty.

Colin

I wonder what Acura can take from this? Could they have made a new chassis and V-8 and brought it to market at a similar price? I'm guessing the answer is no. Maybe it's the Yen exchange rates vs. the Won, maybe it's the Korean governments support of the 'national' brand, or maybe it's a corporate philosophy that rejects the thought of losing money on a car/chassis to gain market share? I can only wonder if the same car would have made a good Acura (just because it's a good Hyundai)?

Type34

I hear ya Colin, but I can't imagine Acura is making money on the RL...which means they're losing money AND market share...

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind paying less for more. It's just that from what I can see here, a lot of people want Acura to follow what Hyundai did with the Genesis - to create a luxury sedan that is significantly cheaper than the equivalent European models. On the other hand, I see the very same people who are saying Acura is not advancing because they keep relying on price advantage. I'm not sure if people want Acura to move upmarket (and thus in price), or they want Acura continue to do the same and build luxury cars that have great value.

People keep saying how Acura needs an identity and how the it has been searching for its own image for far too long. If Acura follow Hyundai's way, then Acura will still be stuck in the same phrase, it will still be looking for its identity.

I totally understand what when you are new to the market, you either do something radically different, or just copy what others have been doing. Hyundai chose the latter for the Genesis, no problem with that. I was just saying, for Acura to do the same, it probably wouldn't be a good idea.

Anyways, we will obviously see the same design elements on different vehicles. But IMO the Genesis just looks so similar to some other luxury cars. Then again, styling is subjective.

What level are we talking about here? Sorry...got a little bit confused there...
On the other hand it didn't quite work out for Infiniti and Acura...

It's good that they have tightened up the handling. I'm a bit disappointed with the F10...the 5 series was the only mid-size luxury sedan that is really sporty...not anymore now...

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Hyundai didn't have a choice but to build more expensive cars to increase profit margin. The exchange rate was unfavourable.....workers demand higher and higher wages....in short, the cost of making cars has gone up a lot. Hyundai cannot reply on building cheap economy cars. The profit is too little. They must expand the line-up and also move cars more upmarket.

Colin

Probably true, but it's not guaranteed that they're losing money. IMO, the major difference is that they didn't enter into the RL 'planning' to lose money, which is something that Hyundai probably accepted on the Genesis (and Toyota with the LS 20 years ago)

yohan81718

i didn't know building expensive car leads to an increase in profit, especially when it's first introduced in the market (uncertainty to succeed)


and for the record, equus has been around (not that long but it has) in korea for about decade.. in the similar price range all along

pttl

Maybe they should remember what it's like to take a risk. To try to develop something new for the 'crazy' few enthusiasts in the world. Heaven forbid that they develop a RWD platform or even crazier....a RWD Coupe.

Of course they won't. They might lose a dollar, while trying to enter a new market. Or, their 'risk' might not turn an acceptable profit. Honda is sickening because they have the resources and technical prowess to bring a new platform to market in the blink of an eye. They just don't have the balls to do it.

This is why Hyundai deserves props, whether it's a "national" brand or not....They are showing some balls and are bringing varying platforms to multiple markets. Maybe it will prove to be foolish in the long run. I hope not. I would love to see Hyundai become the Honda of old.

SSFTSX

200K is certainity? let see. Hyundi better pray that Honda/Nissan/Toyota do not upgrade there line up. otherwise you will be looking at under 100K sales very soon. as early as in third year of Sonata sales.
Toyota sales as much Prius per month as Hyundai Sonata and Prius expensive car than Sonata.

SSFTSX

yup there are boat loads of 2011 RL that were available for sale in every dealership in december.

Colin

Um, it takes 'no balls' to take a risk if there is no risk. Hyundai can lose money all day long and the gov't will take care of them. Did I say that I'm not giving them credit when it's due? I don't believe I ever said the Genesis wasn't a good car. I said that just because it's a good Hyundai, doesn't mean it would have made a good Acura.

This "Hyundai Lovefest" is getting old. Yes, the brand is on the move because there was nowhere to go but up. Up in quality, resale value, and price because they were near the bottom of these categories 10 years ago. In other words, they sucked shit, but now they suck less. They could introduce new designs like the Sonata that are 'groundbreaking' because they had NOTHING to lose. (again, no risk) How many previous gen Sonatas were they selling? 40K? 70K? All rentals? If this new car flopped, how many Sonata customers would they lose?

It will be interesting to see what the brand does if they do start selling 300,000 Sonatas? How will they follow up this car? Another 'groundbreaking' design? Go conservative (cause now they actually have customers to lose)? Yeah, I think they'll find that its more fun to be the 'scrappy underdog' than a segment volume leader. It happened to GM, it happened to Toyota, and (arguably) Honda, and it will happen to Hyundai but the people 'eating their lunch' will be the Chinese.

yohan81718

what kind of business logic is that? "oh we have nothing to lose, let's go ape shit on groundbreaking design and see where it goes"

HondaOnWORKS

Agreed.

Its not going "ape shit". Think of it this way. Hyundai sucked shit, so that logically means their sales sucked. Meaning they aren't going to lose anymore sales, because they are already lacking sales. So if they decide to go "crazy" with their next generation cars, they won't lose anything. Its either still keep the same X amount of sales or increase. Its much easier to start at the bottom than to keep hold of the top. At the bottom, you can only go up but at the top you have to find a way to stay at the top or you go down.

VTEC Racer

Legend2TL

The biggest take away from the Genesis sales would be the market potential for the mid-sized luxury class vehicle with literally no legacy. Lexus and Infiniti both have 2 decades of being in that space, although Infiniti has a spotty reputation for many vehicles that seem to change alot with no presense like the 5/E. The M56 seems to be changing this. But the main point is Hyundai took a gamble and sales are doing well, I do not know the financials so i too would be curious if they are losing money on the Genesis.

The Won/Yen exchange rates are a good point, I didn't think about that. The Yen rate really affected the Acura prices in the early years. The 1989 Legend was ~$30K, 2005 TL was ~$32K for a vehicle that was similar in size/features and not accounting for inflation. Shows how much an advantage of building in the US and not being affected as much by the exchange rates.

I've only looked at the Genesis from the outside, haven't had a chance to look closely inside (besides through the windows) or the engine bay.

Legend2TL

Honda is trying to get into the jet aviation business, if that's not business balls then I don't know what is

Legend2TL

Agree, just finished a business book about the commercial aviation fight between Boeing and Airbus. Very similar story, Airbus gets a guaranteed "development" loan which from their Euro country governments.

In the last decade Hyundai have executed very well mostly due to their US CEO, who surprisingly is a lawyer (he was originally their CLO). He steered the company toward better products and quality. They've improved but to me they are still behind Honda and yes even Toyota in overall quality. I rented a Sonata last summer for a week and it was a pleasant surprise to drive.

pttl

All the more reason why Honda is dissappointing. They want to go build jets, but they won't bring a new car platform to market. That's just ridiculous.

@Colin - I'm not having a Hyundai love fest. I'm just giving them the proper recognition for being aggressive with their approach. So what if they "sucked shit: 10 years ago...that they had no place to go but up. The fact that they ARE on the move deserves props. The fact that Honda sits back with their current "philosophy" deserves derision. Plain and simple.

There is not a single Honda/Acura that I want to even consider buying at this point. BTW - I'm taking the ugly factor out of the equation. They just don't build anything that has any appeal to me...other than their reputation for reliability...they have nothing attractive.

This is from a guy who has owned a Honda/Acura off an on for the past 20 years.

@ H/A fanclub - Perhaps, if the blind loyalty for Honda would stop, and consumers would hold Honda's feet to the fire, so to speak, we would see them stop building planes, and build an exciting car. Perhaps something exciting would come from a once innovative, creative car maker.

VTEC Racer

Can you think of any other car manufacturer that is more innovative and diverse than Honda? Honda didn't start itself as a car company and never has been just a car company.

pttl

Why do I care about their diversity?

I ride their motorcycles and drive their cars. What have they done for me lately...car wise? *crickets*

VTEC Racer

Uhhhhhhhhhh without innovation, you wouldn't have diversity. If they didn't have any diversity, you would only be riding their motorcycles, no cars.

I can see why it would be a question you would want to avoid answering though.

pttl

Seriously? Get real. I understand that R&D in one area leads to "innovation" in other areas. Brilliance!

I'm not getting dragged into the "greatness of Honda as a corporation" argument.

I'm talking about their cars, and their unwillingness (ball-less-ness) to do something new. It's that simple. It's because of their greatness as a corp. that makes their lack of risk taking in the automotive arena, disgusting.

Of all the car makers in the world one would think that Honda would be excited to "Advance" ...not sit back and cower, wondering "what should we do now?"

It's ok that you fan club members are here keeping the flame alive.

VTEC Racer

^^^^ Still no answer.

pttl

^
Still no comprehension.