Edward'TLS

But this is a very unusual case for Acura here. Acura took a bet on the daring signature grille, and failed.

Buyers balk simply by looking at the front-end of the current TL, even before they're willing to waste their time test-driving the car. In this case, buyers have already "frozen" several years ago, and is independent of whatever comes out or not.

phile

:shakehead

Colin

I was only referring to January's relative low numbers. But why not take every opportunity to get on the soap box.

Legend2TL

One of my wife's co-workers is a S/W engineer who had a RSX, which she really liked. When she heard Acura was discontinuing the RSX, she bought another and gave her old one to her niece. However she had to wait a few months for the model/color she wanted since they were ramping down production and demand spiked up again. I wonder if similar things happened to the NSX and S2000 at the end?

Colin

I think the cost of the NSX pretty much negated any last minute 'buying frenzy', but I'm not sure about the S2000. We had planned to get one last one, but the end of production coincided with the beginning of the downturn and we made a wise decision to cut our costs.

Edward'TLS

Interesting.

When I looked back to Post #2159, you were replying to Neuronbob who said the following:

There must be some hidden message somewhere between the lines. But just by reading on the lines, it seemed that you were referring more to "in the market for a TL" more than to "January's relative low numbers".

Colin

OK I can see you're having a hard time so I'll try to slow things down so you can keep up.

In post #2146 TSX69 posted his traditional monthly recap (thanks again btw)

Then immediately after Bob writes in post #2147 that the "MMC can't come soon enough" Obviously responding to the information on January's sales numbers posted directly above. See how that works?

After which, we began (in post #2153) discussing the merits of waiting or getting a 2011 at a discount. Do you get it now?

phile

^

TSX69

Honda Fit Beats Toyota Prius to Top Japan Sales

Honda's Fit subcompact overtook Toyota's Prius gasoline-electric hybrid as Japan's top-selling car in January, its 1st return to that spot in nearly 2 years.

The figures released Friday by the Japan Automobile Dealers Association show how the end of government subsidies for green cars have hurt sales of the Prius after holding the top spot in Japan for 20 straight months. It remains the world's top-selling hybrid.

Fit sales in January surged nearly 14% from a year earlier to 14,873 vehicles, about half of them hybrids, the Tokyo-based maker of the Odyssey minivan, Accord sedan and Asimo robot said.

The last time the Fit was a top-seller was in March 2009.

"It's better to be No. 1," said Honda Motor Co. President Takanobu Ito after also playing down its importance.

"My priority is that all our models record solid sales," he told reporters.

Government-backed incentives for green cars mostly ended in September, hurting sales of the Prius, which fell 38% in January to 13,711 cars.

Fit sales didn't suffer as much because it is cheaper and it went through remodeling relatively recently - going on sale in October in Japan, including gas-electric hybrid versions as well as regular gas-engine models. It goes on sale this year in Europe as the Jazz model, but the new hybrid Fit is not set to go on sale in North America.

The Fit from Honda, Japan's No. 3 automaker, is the cheapest hybrid at 1.59 million yen ($19,000), making it an attractive buy for many, especially with additional dealer discounts.

The latest Prius, which went on sale in May 2009, starts at about 2 million yen ($25,000).

Toyota said it will continue to do its best to woo customers to its models, including the Prius.

"We are grateful to our customers for having made the Prius the top-selling model for 20 consecutive months," the world's biggest automaker said in a statement.

The end of such incentives is hurting overall Japanese car sales, including Honda models. Worries are growing about a further plunge in auto demand in coming months.

While the special incentives have ended, tax breaks for green cars continue until April 2012.

Toyota Motor Corp., which also makes Lexus luxury models and Camry sedans, sold 315,669 Prius cars in its home market last year, up 51% from 2009 - and a record in Japan's auto history for a nameplate.

Toyota's reputation in Japan has held up relatively well despite the massive recalls that have dented its image in North America.

Earlier this week, Honda reported a nearly 40% drop in quarterly profit, hit by a strong yen and fading sales in Japan.

But it was upbeat about the full fiscal year through March and raised its profit forecast, crediting cost cuts and better model offerings.

Toyota reports earnings Feb. 8.

Type34

I have to admit, I'm addicted to this thread. TSX69, we appreciate your efforts in providing this information.

This may have been mentioned, but we should put an asterick by January sales as many of these are new fleet purchases. For example, the Impala outsold the Accord

And it's sad that Acura is at or near the bottom in four of its respective sales categories (ZDX, RL, RDX, TL) and barely in the top-3 of its two most popular (MDX, TSX).

YEH

Really - for an F segment sedan?

$35K in 1990 is equivalent to $59K today or the price of an Equus.

That $35K MSRP did not only undercut the S Class and 7 Series, but also undercut the higher models of the E Class and 5 Series.

The German makes thought that Toyota was subsidizing Lexus b/c they thought there was no way that Toyota wasn't losing $$ on the LS400, esp. since Toyota had to factor in the cost of a new brand and dealer network (if Hyundai had launched the Equus under a new brand/network, they would have had to tack on an additional $8K to the pricetag).

Aside from the fact that the RL is supposed to compete w/ the flagship sedans, the RL's 2011 MSRP starts at $47,200 while the 2011 MSRP for the E Class starts at $49,400.

What automaker would agree to sell its flagship sedan to a competitor for a rebadge job as Nissan recently decided to do w/ the Infiniti M/Nissan Fuga to Mitsu, unless they were in need of revenue?

That would be akin to BMW agreeing to rebadged 5 Series as VWs (probably more like SEATs).


Maybe Nissan should concentrate on its home market first.

1. Toyota 1.531.722
2. Honda 647.289
3. Nissan 645.369

In addition, Toyota still sells more passenger cars than Nissan in China (Nissan's sales figures includes commercial vehicles) and w/ much of the sales going to lower end models w/ at least half of the profits going to the Chinese JV partner, not exactly a great source of cash flow (esp. converting back into the yen).

Evidently you care enough to repeatedly post erroneously about the Genesis sales figures.

I've been just correcting what you have been erroneously arguing and in no way have talked about how great the Genesis is (the Genesis is a fine car, but there are many fine cars out there and like all others, it has its flaws).

If you hadn't been so insistent about it, I wouldn't have had to repeatedly try to correct your misinformation (funny, now that you have no footing on which to argue, you now try to change the argument about how no one carees - typical change of topic by the losing arguer - lol!).

Are you really trying to talk about incentive spending/fleet sales and say that has nothing to do w/ resale value? lol

As for the resale value of the Sonata, its been climbing every generation and ALG predicts the resale value for the new Sonata to be at the higher end of its segment.

As for the Equus, Hyundai thus far is on target to meet its annual sales goal.

Again, yeah, I guess the LS400 wasn't a real competitor to the Germans.

And more people can buy the cheaper RL, but they don't.

YEH

Fleet sales/% for mainstream sedan segment in 2010.

<TABLE border=1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=301><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width=64 align=middle>Rank</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=83 align=middle>Nameplate</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=80 align=middle>Fleet sales</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=75 align=middle>Fleet mix</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width=64 align=right>1</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=83 align=right>Impala</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=80 align=right>124905</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=75 align=right>72.60%</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width=64 align=right>2</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=83 align=right>Fusion</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=80 align=right>68364</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=75 align=right>31.20%</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width=64 align=right>3</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=83 align=right>Malibu</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=80 align=right>63935</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=75 align=right>32.20%</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width=64 align=right>4</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=83 align=right>Camry</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=80 align=right>56799</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=75 align=right>17.30%</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width=64 align=right>5</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=83 align=right>Altima</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=80 align=right>43707</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=75 align=right>19.10%</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width=64 align=right>6</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=83 align=right>Focus</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=80 align=right>42889</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=75 align=right>24.90%</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width=64 align=right>7</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=83 align=right>Corolla</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=80 align=right>32622</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=75 align=right>12.20%</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width=64 align=right>8</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=83 align=right>Sonata</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=80 align=right>21738</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=75 align=right>11.10%</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width=64 align=right>9</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=83 align=right>Accord</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=80 align=right>11525</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=75 align=right>4.10%</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width=64 align=right>10</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=83 align=right>Civic</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=80 align=right>8044</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width=75 align=right>3.10%</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Camry - 56,799/17.30%
Altima - 43,707/19.10%
Sonata - 21,738//11.10%
Accord - 11,525/4.10%

Basically, the Accord and Camry are tied for retail sales at 271,005.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...edans-of-2010/

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

The 5 series base (528i) MSRP is $46k though......

VTEC Racer

Accord retail sales are almost 300,000 units while the Camry is at 271,000 units. How is a 29,000 unit difference basically a tie? The Accord was number 1 in retail sales for 2010.

YEH

^ TTAB didn't include sales of the Crosstour for Accord sales (which is what it should be, otherwise, would have to add sales of the Venza to that for the Camry).

Camry
327,804 - 56,799 = 271,005

Accord
282,530 - 11,525 = 271,005


Still, the price of a 5 Series goes quite a bit higher and the 5er w/ the same HP rating (535i) starts at over $50K; besides, isn't the RL supposed to compete against the flagship sedans (7 Series, etc.)?

Also, for January, Hyundai likely sold just as many (if not more) Genesis and Equus sedans as Lexus did GS and LS sedans (any way you cut it, it's a pretty impressive automotive feat).

VTEC Racer

Why would you "have" to add Venza sales to the Camry? The Venza is not a Camry. The Accord doesn't have a Hybrid variant so should we discount the Camry Hybrid sales also? The Accord Crosstour is just another variant of the Accord. So we now have a sedan, coupe, and wagon variant of the Accord.

This is not like Toyota with the Solara and Matrix of which neither say Camry or Corolla on any part of the car but was always included in the sales total.

As for the Equus, Hyundai sold 254 while Lexus sold 734 LS's. Please don't give "likely" information when the actual information is widely available.

VTEC Racer

The RL is Acura's flagship. That doesn't mean it competes with the flagships of other manufacturers. Every company has what they call their flagship but there is no set definition of what a flagship should consist of. The RL has always been aimed at mid-size luxury sedans as Acura has never had a competitor in the full-size luxury class.

Flagship is used to identify the top offering from a manufacturer. For example, the flagship Lexus is the LS600H. However, the flagship Lexus doesn't even come close to the flagship Mercedes. So a flagship for one company might not be anything like the flagship of another company.

SSFTSX

1990 Toyota Landcruiser cost $25K. It costs now $68K. so how is $35K equal to $59K?

LS forced the Germans to give more value. lower the prices and better bhp with better service even 4 year free maintainance. Hyundai has no impact on competition. Just because Hyundi has lower price and with home delivery service doesnot mean any one else is bothered by it.
perhaps German has to look at Volume of Toyota in 1980s. Germans had far lower volume than Japanese in 1980s. (Japan home market was twice the size which is now. It was whole different society)

show me the monthly lease deals with fuel economy savings. Only these two things matter.
You forget that RL is 2004 model year car.


Nissan/Infiniti will be using engines/components from Diamler for flagship cars. It does not mean they will have same designs/ride/handling characteritics. Designs will be Original Nissan with French influence.
where this information coming from? Renault-Nissan-Autovaz has upperhand. they will get what they want one way or another.


Dont change the subject. You made stupid claim of Toyota being stronger than Nissan in emerging markets. Japanese market is dead market without government subsidies. there is no point for Nissan to concentrate on it.


where is the misinformation?. You made random assumptions of $35K being equal to $59K in 2011. just to show Hyundai looks better.


RL is not cheap car. It is AWD car with heavy fuel economy and maintainace penalty with 10 year old technology.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I try not to reply to you, but youre comparing apples to oranges.

Youre assuming that a 1990 Land Cruiser has gone unchanged for 21 years, thus only inflation is to blame for the price. Thats not the case. A 1990 Land Cruiser didnt have a quarter of the things a 2011 model has.

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

SSFTSX

Those inflation numbers are irrelevant to Auto industry as it is unique. Just look at model line up.
so ur claiming that Landcruiser has changes than Lexus LS thats why its prices have increased faster? but underneath the Landcruiser body it isnt. Landcruiser lack the rid height adjustment of LX.
Both LS and Landcruiser has evolved from 1990 with pretty similar path. Both are Japanese built. There is far more changes in Lexus LS than LandCruiser.
Show me 8speed transmission of LandCruiser or DI engine? or Lexus like Telematics or HID headlights of LandCruiser. or Fuel economy improvement in LandCruiser.
Lexus give you more options that cost extra. LS can go upto $100K.
It cost money to design engine for quietness , fuel economy. and balance it with performance.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Of course. When presented with logic you brush it off as irrelevant. Gotcha.

Hapa DC5

Every industry is unique lol. Look at what a computer today can do compared to one sold 20+ years ago. The computer today is much cheaper and much more capable.

Point being car prices increase due to amount of materials, design, tooling, dealer network, increases in safety, regulations, features, electronics, testing, etc etc.

smarty666

I never gave erroneous information on the Genesis sales ever. I never disputed the numbers on the vehicle so thats a massive epic fail for you. All I tried to do is try to think outside the box when you, Hyundai, and others say how best in class its sales are when its price is incredibly cheaper then its "suppose competitors". I've said that the Genesis is a decent car myself, just nothing to write home about and no where near the refinement and reputation the M, E, 5, and A6 have. I've test driven it several times and came away wanting more for the price they want.

No the LS was not a great equal competitor when it first came out. It took many years of polishing, refinement, price increases, and building up of a reputation to get to where it is today as a true 7-Series, S-Class, and A8 competitor. The same can be said for the Genesis and now the Equus as well. You can't just snap your fingers, like Hyundai has, and say, "hey this is the class competitor to vehicles that have been in this business a long time". Granted its a nice step in the right direction for Hyundai but its still got a way to go to get even more refined and a better reputation. It's going to take years of consistent positive/decent sales to get it, just like the LS did. Plus, the price difference is vast between its suppose competitors. In time it needs to be raised to see if people still buy it at a higher price and then it will be a true competitor to those flagship luxury sedans. Patience is a virtue!

VTEC Racer

Exactly. Even until this day I wouldn't call the LS a TRUE competitor to the Germans. For example, it is $25,000 cheaper than an S class but it still has a hard time managing to outsell it. It is significantly cheaper than the German counterparts and it needs to be. People won't by a Lexus if it's the same price as a BMW, MB, or even Audi in the rest of the world.

Same goes for Hyundai. People are buying cars like the Genesis and Equus because they can get the performance, features, and space of a luxury brand but are priced at the entry and mid-level luxury car point.

I think Hyundai is doing great and really showing their balls with their latest cars, but lets be serious here. Nobody would buy one if it was in the same price field as the cars it was competing against.

SSFTSX

I didnto brush of your claim. I clearly said that Toyota pricing has pretty simlar path for Japanese made luxury models.
$35K is simply not equal to $59K. as clear evidence provided.

When you compare The priceing of RL lease deal with Equus. Equus is cheaper because you get 12k mile per year for Equus with RL you get 10k mile per year. With RL there is no 10 year warranty or home delivery maintainance. and RL has significant EPA fuel economy penalty. (In real world 2011 RL is faster, quieter and more fuel efficient than Equus).

http://www.hyundaiusa.com/financial-...al-offers.aspx
http://www.acura.com/tools/shopping/CurrentOffers.aspx

SSFTSX

Yes today computer is cheaper because it is 100% Made in China/Taiwan rather than made in Japan/USA. and there is massive volume increase as even lower middle class can afford it.
Even Japanese built laptops use parts made accross East Asia.
How many people can afford LandCruiser like SUV in 1990 and in 2011. Not that much volume increase like laptop and it is 100% built in Japan.

smarty666

I tend to agree with you, especially about Hyundai, since they are just beginning their upward trend its going to take time for them to build a solid reputation here but it will happen. I agree with Lexus for the most part though I wouldn't say people would not pay for it if it was priced up at the German top trim levels, but then the questions becomes, how many people in this country can actually afford the top trim levels of the S, 7, A8, LS, etc? Not many, so it isn't advantageous, even from a luxury reputation standpt to focus on that too much, even BMW and MB sales are mostly from their entry and mid level models, not the top line ones.

SSFTSX

It is not the price of car but monthly pmts that matter.
BMW 535 0 down is $749 while 0 down RL is $620. you get 4year of maintaiance with BMW. which for three year about $2k. and BMW 535 is 30% more fuel efficient than RL.

financially speaking RL isnt cheaper than BMW.



http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...ialOffers.aspx
$749*/month for 36 months $0 Down payment. Vehicle Registered outside N.Y.
• $749 First months payment
• $0 Down payment
• $0 Security Deposit
• $749 Cash due at signing

YEH

Uhh, the Venza, being built on the Toyota K platform (the same chassis used for the Camry) is just as much a Camry as the Crosstour is an Accord (neither looks much like the sedan that they are related to).

As for the Camry hybrid; it's not Toyota's fault that sales of the Accord hybrid were so dismal that Honda stopped selling the Accord hybrid, esp. since all the other major players in the segment have hybrid variants (Fusion, Altima, Sonata, Impala) while they don't have wagon variants.

I'm well aware of that, but I was talking about combined Genesis sedan and Equus sales compared to sales of the GS and LS (plus the Hyundais don't have available AWD while the Lexus models do).

Try sticking to the issue at hand.

Yeah, it's not perfect, but Honda/Acura messed that up (and against the midsize luxury, the RL is an even bigger fail).

Let's not go overboard. While many think the S Class is better, the LS460 competes quite respectably.

Yeah, you didn't doubt the Genesis (sedan) outselling the GS or M or state that Hyundai had the highest fleet % - not at all.

Make sure to tell that to the editors of auto publications back in the day; the LS400, when it debuted, routinely beat the Germans in comparison tests.

SSFTSX

Venza is different than Camry. Accord Crosstour is wagon of Accord.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Even Honda calls the Crosstour the Accord Crosstour. Toyota makes no mention that the Venza is related to the Camry.

http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-crosstour/

http://www.toyota.com/venza/

PortlandRL

Ah...forget this thread. I was going to post my monthly Hyundai update but it's clear nobody in here will do anything with it other than get pissed, act like spoiled, bratty children and post pictures of random dashboards. Some of you in here make SSFTSX look like a fucking genius. I'm done with this abortion.

smarty666

Yeah the Venza is a Camry, even others on here are starting to point out your ridiculousness.

You really need to pay attention what people post, I said I never gave erroneous information on Genesis sales, now your bringing up fleet sales which is another matter. I never disputed the actual numerical sales numbers of the Genesis so don't try to spin it that I did. I NEVER said the M and GS outsold it. That is what I'm talking about, not fleet sales, incentives, or what ever other topic you care to throw in there to try and switch topics and confuse the discussion at hand.

Your comparisons aren't even right to begin with so its no wonder your all over the place with Hyundai. The Equus is "suppose" to be compared to the LS, not the GS and LS. The GS is "suppose" to be the competitor to the Genesis. So get the models correct that are "suppose" to be compared to with sales numbers.

I really hope for all the PR you are doing for Hyundai, and all the trash talk and put downs your saying about Toyota, Honda, and Nissan that you actually own a Hyundai and drive one and are not spewing a bunch of BS and don't even own the product

smarty666

Just b/c its written in a magazine does not make it so. Many German and Japanese buyers at the time did not feel it was a on level competitor when it first came out. We are talking about reputation and perception in the market here, not simply sales figures, and its price in the luxury market place. Because its written in a magazine does not make it so. The public has to decide that and in time it will, but the huge difference in price is a big factor right now that can explain their sales success.

By the way, I would like to see some links for the fleet sales and other numerical data you have been posting so I can check them out b/c I have not been able to find them. <iframe style="border: 2px inset; width: 540px; height: 250px;" tabindex="1" id="vB_Editor_001_iframe"></iframe>

Legend2TL

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...cura_rl_page_5

This is getting old, but when the 2G RL came out it was very competitive to the mid-size luxury market. It's more the prestige and marketing than the product which is still OK but the competition has caught up and moved forward. Sorta like Seiko making a really nice mechanical watch and competing against Rolex.

Legend2TL

That's a great bar graph, really illustrates the sales volume of the luxury market. Intersting that there are three distinct sales tiers.

The Lexus fall does not surprise me in light of Toyota's massive PR problem which they didn't take head-on at first.

Legend2TL

Minivan sales look to be improving. Amazing the Chrysler mini-van sales, hard to believe they're #1 despite a sub-par design/product.

SSFTSX

This scans are worth read. Acura was selling twice as many cars as BMW in 1980s. and LS400 loaded price was $38K in 1989. Loaded BMW 535 was $45K.
Today full opitioned BMW 535 is $69K.

http://www.q45.org/1989automobilemag

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

Can we start a new thread but with smarty666 and SSFTSX excluded from it?

smarty666

Can we start a new thread but exclude people that have to waste a post whining about other people's post, namely Pure Adrenaline?