Honda: Development and Technology News
#1121
#1122
Senior Moderator
A valid point. But it has to tell us something (I don't know the answer) but it must tell us something that Honda seems to be the only large scale manufacturer to build their own transmissions. So either everyone else is out to lunch or there's a business case to be made for outsourcing. The numbers tell me there must be a benifit to outsourcing. Yet somehow Honda disagree's. I'd be interested to hear their reasoning.
And Colin, IMO if you come to a site like this with any regularity to hear about and discuss car news you are IMO an enthusiast. Of course your definition may be different.
#1123
It's probably because till the current generation of engines, all Honda's crankshafts rotated the opposite of the automotive norm. They had no choice but to make their own.
#1124
The sizzle in the Steak
Most have gone off to purchase vehicles from other makes, or have stated they will when it comes time for the new vehicle.
You can understand why they are a little bent.
#1126
AZ Community Team
What you will find here is that most of the Honda "critics" are "jilted Honda lovers". Die hard Honda/Acura fans that are so upset to watch Honda go off the rails, with crazy off the wall designs, falling behind in engine & tranny tech....etc and so on.....while meanwhile domestic and Korean mfg. are leapfrogging them.
Most have gone off to purchase vehicles from other makes, or have stated they will when it comes time for the new vehicle.
You can understand why they are a little bent.
Most have gone off to purchase vehicles from other makes, or have stated they will when it comes time for the new vehicle.
You can understand why they are a little bent.
Other critics and enthusiasts (myself included) don't like everything at Honda/Acura but can acknowledge the good stuff currently out there (CRV, Civic, MDX, Odyssey,...) and not good (TL, cancellation of NSX,...).
To be a decent critic you have to be subjective and look at all aspects of something.
#1127
My only car is a Bus
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Honda builds a solid car but a 6 speed AT should have been standard back in 2004 when the new TL came out. Dropping the diesel I agree with, the Power Plenum grille I don't. Also Acura should not have killed off the NSX/CL/RSX without a replacement. When you're trying to sell these cars for a living it makes it tough when your line-up is getting smaller while that of your competition is growing. Maybe management thought they could let Acura coast while they worked on the new Civic and Fit for Honda but they made a big mistake I think.
#1128
Senior Moderator
Some of the Honda critics can see the good and the bad. However you are just like an annoying skipping record constantly bitching about all the bad Honda/Acura does, never seeing any good at all from them. That just points that you're just a heavily biased, nothing more or less.
Other critics and enthusiasts (myself included) don't like everything at Honda/Acura but can acknowledge the good stuff currently out there (CRV, Civic, MDX, Odyssey,...) and not good (TL, cancellation of NSX,...).
To be a decent critic you have to be subjective and look at all aspects of something.
Other critics and enthusiasts (myself included) don't like everything at Honda/Acura but can acknowledge the good stuff currently out there (CRV, Civic, MDX, Odyssey,...) and not good (TL, cancellation of NSX,...).
To be a decent critic you have to be subjective and look at all aspects of something.
#1129
Senior Moderator
Sorry to hear about this.
Hopefully when the economy comes back a little more, Honda will reconsider.
Hopefully when the economy comes back a little more, Honda will reconsider.
#1130
Burning Brakes
Civic vs. Elantra
Accord vs. Sonata
CR-V vs. Tuscan
Pilot vs. Santa Fe
I'm not even into Honda's but to me the Honda wins every comparison here^
![Dunno](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/dunno.gif)
The Genesis vs. TL now thats a different story lol
#1131
how handsome I am
fit and civic are better than accent and elantra, accord is a powerhouse but the Sonata is no pushover anymore, and I think the Santa Fe is an excellent SUV. Not sure about the Tuscan.
And the Genesis is absolutely stunning. Exteriorwise, Genesis all the way. Interior though, still gotta hand it to Acura. At least they haven't fucked THAT up yet.
And the Genesis is absolutely stunning. Exteriorwise, Genesis all the way. Interior though, still gotta hand it to Acura. At least they haven't fucked THAT up yet.
#1133
The sizzle in the Steak
Some of the Honda critics can see the good and the bad. However you are just like an annoying skipping record constantly bitching about all the bad Honda/Acura does, never seeing any good at all from them. That just points that you're just a heavily biased, nothing more or less.
Other critics and enthusiasts (myself included) don't like everything at Honda/Acura but can acknowledge the good stuff currently out there (CRV, Civic, MDX, Odyssey,...) and not good (TL, cancellation of NSX,...).
To be a decent critic you have to be subjective and look at all aspects of something.
Other critics and enthusiasts (myself included) don't like everything at Honda/Acura but can acknowledge the good stuff currently out there (CRV, Civic, MDX, Odyssey,...) and not good (TL, cancellation of NSX,...).
To be a decent critic you have to be subjective and look at all aspects of something.
![Why Me](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/whyme.gif)
...but you have to have your head burried in the sand if you think Honda's past few years have produced anything to "write home about".
The Acura line-up is a mess.....except for the MDX.
The Honda line-up is a mess....except for the Oddy, Fit, Civic.
IMHO the Fit is the best thing Honda has going for it right now.
I'd venture to bet that I have owned more Honda products over the years than you.....if that means anything.
....and a couple of them currently reside in my garage.
Fanboy I am not. Auto enthusiast....yes.
Don't be a tool.
#1134
The sizzle in the Steak
#1135
The sizzle in the Steak
#1136
It does. It says that they don't really want to go 'head to head' and like Mazda, they try to skirt around the edge of a segment. It just makes good business sense. Acura does it too. The TSX for example lands in a strange 'nether-region' between the other brands (Lexus, BMW etc) entry level cars in terms of size, price, and feature content.
#1138
Senior Moderator
It does. It says that they don't really want to go 'head to head' and like Mazda, they try to skirt around the edge of a segment. It just makes good business sense. Acura does it too. The TSX for example lands in a strange 'nether-region' between the other brands (Lexus, BMW etc) entry level cars in terms of size, price, and feature content.
Acura clearly plays this game.
#1139
I didn't mention Honda but I agree, in certain segments they try to avoid direct comparisons. Ridgeline yes, Element maybe. LOL, I'm not sure what segment they were avoiding (or aiming for) with that one.... Ironically, the MDX is aimed squarely at the crossover SUV market and does quite well.
#1141
The sizzle in the Steak
#1142
#1143
Senior Moderator
The 5AT works fine now. Honda has always built their own transmissions and except for the 5AT, I don't recall any history of major issues in their 50 years of existence. In the last 5-6 years, Honda has quietly fixed the 5AT, developed the new 6AT, developed the new dual clutch for motorcycles, and (if my sources are correct) the new dual clutch for the NSX. That's not bad, but I'm sure we'll find a way to see the 'glass half empty"
Also, outsourcing doesn't insure reliability. BMWs ZF sourced transmission has it's share of problems with "no reverse". We can look into every company's history and find problems. This argument is the equivalent of saying that Toyota should outsource their V-6 engines because of their past sludge problem.
Sure honda builds a few decent products, but they seem to be going backwards while others are moving forward.
Oh and i do know that Honda does have a trans out sourced to a company (I have a friend in the power train field for the military division of Oshkosh Truck ) that said the company he visited is working on a trans for Honda, and a 7/8 speed for GM (thats all the info i have)
#1144
On a side note. This site has some of the most negative Moderators around. I'm not saying that as enthusiasts, you're not entitled to an opinion but having Mods chime into so many threads to say the same thing over and over again, is anything but "Moderate".
Moderate \Mod"er*ate
1. To restrain from excess of any kind; to reduce from a state of violence, intensity, or excess; to keep within bounds; to make temperate; to lessen; to allay; to repress; to temper; to qualify; as, to moderate rage, action, desires, etc.; to moderate heat or wind. [1913 Webster]
1. To restrain from excess of any kind; to reduce from a state of violence, intensity, or excess; to keep within bounds; to make temperate; to lessen; to allay; to repress; to temper; to qualify; as, to moderate rage, action, desires, etc.; to moderate heat or wind. [1913 Webster]
#1145
AZ Community Team
![Blah Blah](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/blahblah.gif)
And great Honda products in the last few years, the current gen Civic and CRV are two excellent examples.
You have no right to tell anyone he's a tool.
![Why Me](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/whyme.gif)
...but you have to have your head burried in the sand if you think Honda's past few years have produced anything to "write home about".
The Acura line-up is a mess.....except for the MDX.
The Honda line-up is a mess....except for the Oddy, Fit, Civic.
IMHO the Fit is the best thing Honda has going for it right now.
I'd venture to bet that I have owned more Honda products over the years than you.....if that means anything.
....and a couple of them currently reside in my garage.
Fanboy I am not. Auto enthusiast....yes.
Don't be a tool.
#1146
Three Wheelin'
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![Why Me](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/whyme.gif)
...but you have to have your head burried in the sand if you think Honda's past few years have produced anything to "write home about".
The Acura line-up is a mess.....except for the MDX.
The Honda line-up is a mess....except for the Oddy, Fit, Civic.
IMHO the Fit is the best thing Honda has going for it right now.
I'd venture to bet that I have owned more Honda products over the years than you.....if that means anything.
....and a couple of them currently reside in my garage.
Fanboy I am not. Auto enthusiast....yes.
Don't be a tool.
#1147
Senior Moderator
So what do you want me (or anybody) to say? Shoulda Coulda? I'm sorry, but I choose to focus on being neutral and, while not ignoring the negative, understand we can't change what happened in 2001. We can either remain fixated on this or we can move on.
On a side note. This site has some of the most negative Moderators around. I'm not saying that as enthusiasts, you're not entitled to an opinion but having Mods chime into so many threads to say the same thing over and over again, is anything but "Moderate".
Anyway, try to take this as an observation and a simple call for some 'self-reflection'. If you feel that I'm way out of line for suggesting this, no problem.... moving on.
On a side note. This site has some of the most negative Moderators around. I'm not saying that as enthusiasts, you're not entitled to an opinion but having Mods chime into so many threads to say the same thing over and over again, is anything but "Moderate".
Anyway, try to take this as an observation and a simple call for some 'self-reflection'. If you feel that I'm way out of line for suggesting this, no problem.... moving on.
I am neutral. I still own my 2000 TL with 320,000 miles on it. I just bought a prelude, My family has hondas. I however will not buy a honda product (other than their lawn mowers) until they build something that I am looking for and like.
Side note, we as moderators are ENTITLED to our opinion JUST like you are. Our job is to help keep this site running and by doing so that doesnt mean we have to agree with the likes of those that have different opinions as us. We DONT have to like every thing honda builds. We have just as much right to scrutinize them as we do to rave about them.
![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
Moving on.
Last edited by fsttyms1; 10-09-2009 at 10:55 PM.
#1148
Honda Fanboy
You're are correct for the most part and sales are backing what you're saying up. Acura's sales are in the toilet, except for the new V6 TSX, and Honda's aren't anything to write home about. The only Honda selling at an impressive rate (for it's class) is the Fit, but the Mazda2 and Fiesta are coming next year which might make the Fit lose some of it's thunder. Acura is saying the ZDX will only sell 6000 units a year so Acura doesn't have anything in the near term to save their sales.
![Roll Eyes](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
#1149
No you cant change what happened in the past BUT honda back then when they knew of the problems they should have done more to try to solve it. Im not asking for them to change what they did (other than make a better product in the future)
I am neutral. I still own my 2000 TL with 320,000 miles on it. I just bought a prelude, My family has hondas. I however will not buy a honda product (other than their lawn mowers) until they build something that I am looking for and like.
Side note, we as moderators are ENTITLED to our opinion JUST like you are. Our job is to help keep this site running and by doing so that doesnt mean we have to agree with the likes of those that have different opinions as us. We DONT have to like every thing honda builds. We have just as much right to scrutinize them as we do to rave about them.![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
Moving on.
I am neutral. I still own my 2000 TL with 320,000 miles on it. I just bought a prelude, My family has hondas. I however will not buy a honda product (other than their lawn mowers) until they build something that I am looking for and like.
Side note, we as moderators are ENTITLED to our opinion JUST like you are. Our job is to help keep this site running and by doing so that doesnt mean we have to agree with the likes of those that have different opinions as us. We DONT have to like every thing honda builds. We have just as much right to scrutinize them as we do to rave about them.
![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
Moving on.
#1150
Senior Moderator
This isn't hondalovefest.com
IMO Acura hasn't given enthusiasts much to be happy about lately so that's played into this 'negativity'?
Put aside the styling issue for a second. They don't IMO have anything resembling something sporty. Am I the only one who feels that way? A 4000lb sedan with AWD doesn't exactly stir the senses.
Of course you'll argue that Honda never made the car we're now looking for so we should just move on. I get that point but at the same time don't agree with it. I am/was a loyal customer and feel its the manufactuers responsibility to meet my needs as the customer, not my responsibility to settle for what they have. Ultimately, they either will or won't and life goes on. Sure we bitch now but we'll get over it.
But understand that these forums are here for us to discuss things like this. Look at their lineup and try to understand why.
Jeff over at TOV has had that site for how long now? I'm guessing 10+ years. Even he has a hard time remaining postive these days. I don't think Honda enthusiasts come any bigger.
IMO Acura hasn't given enthusiasts much to be happy about lately so that's played into this 'negativity'?
Put aside the styling issue for a second. They don't IMO have anything resembling something sporty. Am I the only one who feels that way? A 4000lb sedan with AWD doesn't exactly stir the senses.
Of course you'll argue that Honda never made the car we're now looking for so we should just move on. I get that point but at the same time don't agree with it. I am/was a loyal customer and feel its the manufactuers responsibility to meet my needs as the customer, not my responsibility to settle for what they have. Ultimately, they either will or won't and life goes on. Sure we bitch now but we'll get over it.
But understand that these forums are here for us to discuss things like this. Look at their lineup and try to understand why.
Jeff over at TOV has had that site for how long now? I'm guessing 10+ years. Even he has a hard time remaining postive these days. I don't think Honda enthusiasts come any bigger.
#1151
In the case of Jeff, he may not be overly pleased with the direction, but he doesn't jump into every thread with his opinion either. I know what his opinion is because if directly asked, he'll tell you. But he doesn't pepper every post with redundant comments.
Again, as I mentioned earlier. If, after considering what I said, you come to the conclusion that I'm out of line, we're cool. I was only asking for the Mods to take a "step back" for a second.
#1152
No, there has to be more to this. It seems as if there is a yearning for Acura to make an S4 version of the TL. Even though nobody would really buy it, this seems to offer some comfort that they could have and this somehow makes the A4 acceptable. I don't know.
#1153
6G TLX-S
If Acura were to make a S4 version 340hp V8 AWD TL, I would run to the dealership and order one in my pyjamas. If not of the shitty tranny on my TL-S, I won't be so desperate.
#1154
6G TLX-S
I was overwhelmed by the V8 that I totally forgot about how freaking ugly the front of the current TL looks. I won't buy any ugly car even if it could fly.
My correction as below :
If Acura were to make a S4 version 340hp V8 AWD TL with a redesigned good-looking front end, I would run to the dealership and order one in my pyjamas.
#1155
I'm the Firestarter
Separate post for this (since its back to cars). If this is not the recipe for 'stirring the senses' what about the A4? This is a similarly heavy AWD car, yet some (not saying you) fawn over it.
No, there has to be more to this. It seems as if there is a yearning for Acura to make an S4 version of the TL. Even though nobody would really buy it, this seems to offer some comfort that they could have and this somehow makes the A4 acceptable. I don't know.
No, there has to be more to this. It seems as if there is a yearning for Acura to make an S4 version of the TL. Even though nobody would really buy it, this seems to offer some comfort that they could have and this somehow makes the A4 acceptable. I don't know.
What the TL does lack is balance, it's a front-heavy design and it looks that way. As the latest A4 grew in size, Audi got away from that and balanced their design along with adding a rear-biased AWD option. The car's balance is quite nice now, weight wise and with fairly short front overhang which gives it a nice balanced look.
Acura on the other hand keeps putting more power at the front, but they put even more weight and visual mass at the front and compensate (on some models) with some fancy AWD assist at the back. That kind of design doesn't seem as sporty and elegant as balancing the weight towards the rear, it's more of a brute-force approach.
I think the plenum design would look a hell of a lot better if the nose of the car didn't have to be so huge.
#1156
You're are correct for the most part and sales are backing what you're saying up. Acura's sales are in the toilet, except for the new V6 TSX, and Honda's aren't anything to write home about. The only Honda selling at an impressive rate (for it's class) is the Fit, but the Mazda2 and Fiesta are coming next year which might make the Fit lose some of it's thunder. Acura is saying the ZDX will only sell 6000 units a year so Acura doesn't have anything in the near term to save their sales.
Lexus- 149,408
BMW- 144,223
Mercedes- 135,413
Acura- 76,628
Cadillac- 73,024
Buick- 72,389
Infiniti- 59,886
Audi- 59,518
Lincoln- 59,236
Volvo- 46,729
Saab- 6,928
#1157
#1158
Senior Moderator
I never said it had to be lovefest.com. I never said not to express your opinion, in fact, specifically detailed your right to do so. AND I never said you have to be positive. I said, that I try to be positive. Dom, I don't really get into flame wars, read carefully please.
In the case of Jeff, he may not be overly pleased with the direction, but he doesn't jump into every thread with his opinion either. I know what his opinion is because if directly asked, he'll tell you. But he doesn't pepper every post with redundant comments.
Again, as I mentioned earlier. If, after considering what I said, you come to the conclusion that I'm out of line, we're cool. I was only asking for the Mods to take a "step back" for a second.
In the case of Jeff, he may not be overly pleased with the direction, but he doesn't jump into every thread with his opinion either. I know what his opinion is because if directly asked, he'll tell you. But he doesn't pepper every post with redundant comments.
Again, as I mentioned earlier. If, after considering what I said, you come to the conclusion that I'm out of line, we're cool. I was only asking for the Mods to take a "step back" for a second.
Flame war? I'm hardly trying to argue with you. If thats how it came across I apologize. I think you know how much I respect your opinion. (don't always agree
![Big Grin](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
![Shrug](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/shrug.gif)
I've seen Jeff offer his opinion without being asked much more frequenly. He seems to be having a difficult time remaining objective these days. Point is, there are reason's to complain.
And no you're not out of line, at least that's how I feel.
Last edited by dom; 10-10-2009 at 08:28 AM.
#1159
Senior Moderator
I was generalizing. I'm fully aware that most sedans tip the scales at close to 4K these days.
But like you said, even if they weigh the same, the A4 IMO has a far sportier presence. Having the S4 around doesn't hurt with that perception.
But like you said, even if they weigh the same, the A4 IMO has a far sportier presence. Having the S4 around doesn't hurt with that perception.
#1160
Senior Moderator
Separate post for this (since its back to cars). If this is not the recipe for 'stirring the senses' what about the A4? This is a similarly heavy AWD car, yet some (not saying you) fawn over it.
No, there has to be more to this. It seems as if there is a yearning for Acura to make an S4 version of the TL. Even though nobody would really buy it, this seems to offer some comfort that they could have and this somehow makes the A4 acceptable. I don't know.
No, there has to be more to this. It seems as if there is a yearning for Acura to make an S4 version of the TL. Even though nobody would really buy it, this seems to offer some comfort that they could have and this somehow makes the A4 acceptable. I don't know.
Having said that the 09 A4 I drove had absolutely terrible overly light steering. Although I'm told that was due to the lack of a sport package.