Honda: Development and Technology News
04-06-2009, 08:34 PM
#921
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...06/455943.html
BREAKING STORY: Honda Suddenly Kills Fuelmaker In Stunning Move That Outrages CNG Movement
This continuing coverage of America’s oil crisis arises from the The Plan: How to Save America When the Oil Stops—or the Day Before (Dialog Press).
WASHINGTON, DC - April 6, 2009: Amidst charges that embattled American Honda is systematically suppressing its compressed natural gas (CNG) vehicle program, the company has suddenly fueled that impression by throwing into bankruptcy its wholly-owned CNG refueling company, Fuelmaker.
Toronto-based Fuelmaker was arguably the lynchpin of CNG’s future as a bridge solution to alternative fuel. The firm manufactured and distributed the essential refueling appliance that allowed home-based and fleet refueling of CNG vehicles, including the Honda Civic GX, heralded as the “greenest car in America
Fuelmaker appliances at home or at companies excised the need for traditional neighborhood filling stations. The compact, home garage-based CNG refueler is called "Phill." The commercial version called the Vehicle Refueling Appliance could fast fill several vehicles. Some 14,000 Fuelmaker devices around the world are now suddenly stranded by Honda’s action.
Fuelmaker employees, CNG industry leaders, and CNG advocates who learned of the move on the weekend are all outraged. The details, pieced together by this reporter, are as follows:
Last Thursday, April 02, 2009, without notice, American Honda called its loan to Fuelmaker, according to Fuelmaker and Honda employees familiar with the facts. Honda in essence owned and controlled Fuelmaker through a so-called “numbered corporation.” A “numbered corporation, almost unheard of in the U.S., is a commercial entity especially enabled under Canadian law that exists without a recognizable name, identified only by a number. Calling the multi-million dollar note allowed American Honda to walk into a Canadian bankruptcy court and throw Fuelmaker, its own alt-fuel company, into receivership. The well-known receivership firm Alvarez and Marsal was then called in to liquidate everything as fast as possible.
That day, April 2, a lone Alvarez and Marsal receiver, Melanie MacKenzie, arrived at the company offices with the necessary papers. All Fuelmaker employees were abruptly fired without severance or warning, and given just a few hours to gather up their belongings and leave the premises. All Fuelmaker operations were suspended without notice to dealers, clients or suppliers. All assets were immediately placed on the auction block for liquidation.
“I think it is unconscionable,” stated one shocked Fuelmaker employee, who declined to have any name published for fear of retaliation from Honda. Explaining the fear of Honda, the employee stated, “I don't trust those guys. I don't trust them as far as I can throw them. They have lied to me every which way.” One employee added, “Quite simply, Honda has used the bankruptcy courts to avoid paying its employees severance. We were all absolutely blind-sided.”
An American CNG industry source who regularly works with Honda and has defended the company in the past, conceded, “It’s clear. Honda is doing their best to minimize the CNG market. What else can I say.” A Canadian CNG industry source sent cross-border emails, obtained by this reporter, protesting, “Nothing has been communicated to customers and we can expect that dealers will soon be dealing with very irate customers who cannot get parts,” adding, “This was handled very poorly and all of the former 60 employees are left with nothing.”
Torrance, California-based American Honda is the U.S. branch of the fabled Japanese car company. Honda’s glistening record of excellence was severely tarnished after widespread allegations that it was consciously suppressing its advanced Honda Civic GX, a CNG vehicle designed to work with the home-refueling unit manufactured by Fuelmaker. The company refused to manufacture more than about 90 Civic GX cars per month in 2008, and would mainly sell those few cars to select dealers in New York and California. A long list of alt-fuel advocates lined up to purchase the car, especially during the nerve-wracking triple-digit per barrel oil prices of 2008. But Honda would not increase production.
In one much-publicized case, the Spokane Community College tried for a year to buy a single Honda GX to train a cadre of alt-fuel specialists to help America get off of oil. Honda adamantly refused to sell the school even one car. In response to media revelations about the affair, a senior Honda executive posted snide remarks in a CNG chat room which included enough four-letter words to require multiple “expletive deleted” notations by the moderator. In a bizarre twist, the Honda exec also mocked the assassination of President John F. Kennedy as part of an effort to marginalize media reports. Later, Honda corporate spokesman apologized for the conduct.
Then, in an embarrassing revelation in late fall 2008, Honda internal communications were published showing the carmaker was artificially manufacturing a Honda GX shortage for the summer of 2009. First the company suspended GX production altogether, then it announced it would double annual output to 2,000 vehicles. But by enforcing a tight quota, Honda ensured that a shortage would occur, which it acknowledged in a fax to dealers. The company made clear it was refusing to make enough vehicles to satisfy the market demand that had mushroomed as part of the escalating movement to break the national oil addiction.
Critics accuse Honda of mere token Civic production inasmuch as the company generally sells more than 1.5 million vehicles annually, and in 2008 would only produce 1000 CNG cars. Even though its sales plunged last year, Honda still sold 1,428,765 vehicles. There are more than 8 million CNG vehicles worldwide, but only Honda makes them in America.
Edwin Black
The same criticism leveled against Honda for refusing the build and sell cars was lodged against Honda-controlled Fuelmaker for declining to sell the Phill refueling units in most locales that wanted them. The combination of no car and no refueler ensured that production and sales were suppressed. One executive in the Honda-Fuelmaker combination with knowledge of sales quipped, “Suppression? That's True. I can't tell you the number of times we could not sell product because the cars were not made available.”
Critics have suggested that Honda refused to produce more Honda GX units because as consumers fled to alternative vehicles, sales of the company’s most profitable gas guzzler cratered. These included the Ridgeline and the Pilot, both among the most fuel inefficient vehicles in the nation. These models in some instances suffered more than a 40 percent decline in one month during last year’s oil price run-up.
Honda’s conduct was further challenged during a much-vaunted push by T. Boone Pickens to proliferate natural gas vehicles. Pickens’ company, Clean Energy, tried to purchase Fuelmaker for $17 million, which would break the shackles imposed on the CNG market. But at the last minute, the deal fell apart, reportedly because Honda refused to provide the ordinary financials required in due diligence.
“Honda wanted to sell the company to any of several investors,” confirmed an employee at the Honda-Fuelmaker combination with access to financial information. Clean Energy was just one of the firms that showed interest, the employee added. “But they always screwed up the negotiations. Honda attorneys always ended up pissing people off.” The employee asked that no name be used for fear of retaliation by Honda, a common refrain of those interviewed for this story.
• SEE ALSO: Author Edwin Black Blasts SUVs as National Security Risks
One disheartened Fuelmaker technical support manager sent an email, obtained by this reporter, protesting to bankruptcy receiver MacKenzie, “We are convinced that Honda of America does not understand or appreciate the impact of ceasing all FuelMaker activities without considering some type of contingency plan for existing users who require parts and services to maintain their equipment until such time as they can make alternate fuelling arrangements.”
In Ontario Canada alone, more than 300 FuelMaker stations serve a variety of fleets, including such special purpose off-road vehicles as ice resurfacers and forklifts. Many of these vehicles are exclusively fueled by natural gas and “are totally dependant on the FuelMaker equipment that refuels them,” according to a Canadian Fuelmaker service employee. More one thousands forklifts and 100 ice resurfacers will be effected. Ice resurfacers require refueling every two days. “If a defective refueling system is not repaired in this time frame,” a Fuelmaker service expert confirmed in a written statement circulated to dealers, then “ice grooming operations cease and municipalities have no choice but to cancel tournaments, events and bookings for their arenas. There is no alternate vehicle that can be used to carry out the functions of an ice resurfacer.” He added, “Forklifts carry approximately four hours worth of fuel on board. There are often dozens of them in factories running 24 hours per day. Immediate response to breakdowns in forklift applications is critical. Without forklifts, factory operations grind to a halt in very short order.” Ironically,” the email pointed out, “Two Honda of Canada auto plants in Alliston and their main parts supplier Simcoe Parts Supply directly across the street, jointly operate close to 100 forklifts and make use of four large FuelMaker refueling stations.”
An email distributed by a Fuelmaker employee to CNG circles in North America about the effected Honda factories in Canada harshly chided Honda management. “How ironic that Honda of America in their infinite wisdom,” stated the email, “is now crippling two of their own auto plants because they refuse to exercise responsible management of their affairs!”
One Fuelmaker employee reported about conversations with shocked customers. “When they heard FuelMaker had gone bankrupt they were absolutely livid towards Honda of America that provisions for spare parts and repair services had not been considered as part of the wind down,” he stated.
According to a written statement drafted over the weekend by an executive in the Honda-Fuelmaker combination, and obtained by this reporter, “FuelMaker alone had three full-time service technicians covering over 250 stations in Ontario. Each technician handled 2-3 service calls per day. Therefore between 3 PM Thursday afternoon when operations at FuelMaker ceased and now, Sunday morning, there are at least fifteen calls that have gone unanswered and therefore fifteen facilities with dedicated natural gas vehicles that are in serious trouble RIGHT NOW! Ontario represents only a fraction of the world population of equipment. In twenty years, FuelMaker manufactured over 13,000 compression units and sold them in more than thirty countries. Most of those units are still in operation today. The Ontario market represents less than 10% of the world market so as you can imagine, what I am describing above is also happening all over the world.”
Safety sources in Canada wondered if makeshift solutions to the disappearance of spare parts and service would pose an explosive hazard. “There is a serious risk,” wrote one source involved in addressing refueling safety, “that someone is going to cobble together a substandard countermeasure to a problem that arises because they can't get parts and their facility and vehicles are totally dependant on their FuelMaker refueling equipment.”
Several employees worried over a safety crisis caused by Honda circulated a note calling for a rescue plan to salvage at least the service aspect. Even if no more refueling devices are produced, the ones out there need service and spare parts, stated an employee not wishing to provide a name so as not to jeopardize on-going efforts with Honda. One email asking for a rescue meeting declared, “Time is of the essence. This meeting must take place as soon as possible. Please do your best to make it happen.”
Fuelmaker president John Lyon confirmed to this reporter, “Fuelmaker management was aware that American Honda was trying to sell its Fuelmaker stock and intellectual property to a company that would provide the synergies necessary to move Fuelmaker to the next step of efficiency and profitability. This was public knowledge.” But Lyon added, “We were shocked to learn this week from a third party (not Honda) that American Honda was planning to put Fuelmaker into bankruptcy and sell the assets. I feel badly for the dedicated Fuelmaker employees who were all terminated on Thursday without notice or severance. Also I am concerned about the suppliers and Fuelmaker’s customers who are left without any support. Hopefully someone will see this as an opportunity and come to the rescue. It is a sad day for the NGV industry, the environment and energy security,” Lyon concluded.
“This is a real setback for the NGV industry,” agreed Richard Kolodziej, director of the leading CNG trade group, Natural Gas Vehicles America. “Natural gas home refueling is a significant benefit for residential customers. The idea is so compelling that we fully expect another manufacturer to enter the market soon.”
Some Honda business partners held out hope that somehow good reasoning prevailed. “It is disappointing but I am not surprised,” asserted a senior executive with AutoNation, the country’s largest owner of new car dealerships, and a strong advocate of alternative fuel vehicles such as the Honda GX. “With the price of gasoline at $2,” the AutoNation executive continued, “and the economy the way it is, things have changed.” But he added, “Everything for Honda does, they have a solid reason. When you deal with Honda you deal with a thoughtful reasoned company.”
Ironically, nearly all key players contacted stated they had been kept in the dark about Honda’s plans for Fuelmaker, including the declaration of bankruptcy. Many stated they only learned of the bankruptcy from this reporter. This included key executives at Fuelmaker in Toronto, senior alternative fuel program managers at Honda in California, knowledgeable industry experts, dealer sources, customers, and CNG advocates.
Honda senior vice president John Mendel, contacted at a dealer event in Los Vegas, claimed he was not aware of the bankruptcy. He stated he would have a corporate spokesman call back within moments. No call came. When contacted again, he hung up the phone after this reporter identified himself.
Honda is scheduled to attend the Alternative Fuel Vehicle Institute National Conference in Orlando on April 19-22. But no Honda source would confirm whether the company was still attending. Alternative Fuel Vehicle Institute Director of Education and Business Programs Kimberly Taylor did not respond to repeated emails and phone calls about the conference. In the past the conference has been criticized for being under the sway of leading corporate funding sponsors such as GM and Ford who have a record of undermining alternative fuel vehicles.
A disconsolate Fuelmaker employee offered a final epitaph: “Phills certainly are dead. The entire company is now dead.” One executive in the CNG field that regularly works with Honda, added, “This sudden bankruptcy certainly plays into the idea that Honda is trying to kill the CNG vehicle market.”
Edwin Black is the New York Times best selling investigative author of IBM and the Holocaust, Internal Combustion and The Plan: How to Save America When the Oil Stops—or the Day Before (Dialog Press). More information about The Plan can be found at www.planforoilcrisis.com.
BREAKING STORY: Honda Suddenly Kills Fuelmaker In Stunning Move That Outrages CNG Movement
This continuing coverage of America’s oil crisis arises from the The Plan: How to Save America When the Oil Stops—or the Day Before (Dialog Press).
WASHINGTON, DC - April 6, 2009: Amidst charges that embattled American Honda is systematically suppressing its compressed natural gas (CNG) vehicle program, the company has suddenly fueled that impression by throwing into bankruptcy its wholly-owned CNG refueling company, Fuelmaker.
Toronto-based Fuelmaker was arguably the lynchpin of CNG’s future as a bridge solution to alternative fuel. The firm manufactured and distributed the essential refueling appliance that allowed home-based and fleet refueling of CNG vehicles, including the Honda Civic GX, heralded as the “greenest car in America
Fuelmaker appliances at home or at companies excised the need for traditional neighborhood filling stations. The compact, home garage-based CNG refueler is called "Phill." The commercial version called the Vehicle Refueling Appliance could fast fill several vehicles. Some 14,000 Fuelmaker devices around the world are now suddenly stranded by Honda’s action.
Fuelmaker employees, CNG industry leaders, and CNG advocates who learned of the move on the weekend are all outraged. The details, pieced together by this reporter, are as follows:
Last Thursday, April 02, 2009, without notice, American Honda called its loan to Fuelmaker, according to Fuelmaker and Honda employees familiar with the facts. Honda in essence owned and controlled Fuelmaker through a so-called “numbered corporation.” A “numbered corporation, almost unheard of in the U.S., is a commercial entity especially enabled under Canadian law that exists without a recognizable name, identified only by a number. Calling the multi-million dollar note allowed American Honda to walk into a Canadian bankruptcy court and throw Fuelmaker, its own alt-fuel company, into receivership. The well-known receivership firm Alvarez and Marsal was then called in to liquidate everything as fast as possible.
That day, April 2, a lone Alvarez and Marsal receiver, Melanie MacKenzie, arrived at the company offices with the necessary papers. All Fuelmaker employees were abruptly fired without severance or warning, and given just a few hours to gather up their belongings and leave the premises. All Fuelmaker operations were suspended without notice to dealers, clients or suppliers. All assets were immediately placed on the auction block for liquidation.
“I think it is unconscionable,” stated one shocked Fuelmaker employee, who declined to have any name published for fear of retaliation from Honda. Explaining the fear of Honda, the employee stated, “I don't trust those guys. I don't trust them as far as I can throw them. They have lied to me every which way.” One employee added, “Quite simply, Honda has used the bankruptcy courts to avoid paying its employees severance. We were all absolutely blind-sided.”
An American CNG industry source who regularly works with Honda and has defended the company in the past, conceded, “It’s clear. Honda is doing their best to minimize the CNG market. What else can I say.” A Canadian CNG industry source sent cross-border emails, obtained by this reporter, protesting, “Nothing has been communicated to customers and we can expect that dealers will soon be dealing with very irate customers who cannot get parts,” adding, “This was handled very poorly and all of the former 60 employees are left with nothing.”
Torrance, California-based American Honda is the U.S. branch of the fabled Japanese car company. Honda’s glistening record of excellence was severely tarnished after widespread allegations that it was consciously suppressing its advanced Honda Civic GX, a CNG vehicle designed to work with the home-refueling unit manufactured by Fuelmaker. The company refused to manufacture more than about 90 Civic GX cars per month in 2008, and would mainly sell those few cars to select dealers in New York and California. A long list of alt-fuel advocates lined up to purchase the car, especially during the nerve-wracking triple-digit per barrel oil prices of 2008. But Honda would not increase production.
In one much-publicized case, the Spokane Community College tried for a year to buy a single Honda GX to train a cadre of alt-fuel specialists to help America get off of oil. Honda adamantly refused to sell the school even one car. In response to media revelations about the affair, a senior Honda executive posted snide remarks in a CNG chat room which included enough four-letter words to require multiple “expletive deleted” notations by the moderator. In a bizarre twist, the Honda exec also mocked the assassination of President John F. Kennedy as part of an effort to marginalize media reports. Later, Honda corporate spokesman apologized for the conduct.
Then, in an embarrassing revelation in late fall 2008, Honda internal communications were published showing the carmaker was artificially manufacturing a Honda GX shortage for the summer of 2009. First the company suspended GX production altogether, then it announced it would double annual output to 2,000 vehicles. But by enforcing a tight quota, Honda ensured that a shortage would occur, which it acknowledged in a fax to dealers. The company made clear it was refusing to make enough vehicles to satisfy the market demand that had mushroomed as part of the escalating movement to break the national oil addiction.
Critics accuse Honda of mere token Civic production inasmuch as the company generally sells more than 1.5 million vehicles annually, and in 2008 would only produce 1000 CNG cars. Even though its sales plunged last year, Honda still sold 1,428,765 vehicles. There are more than 8 million CNG vehicles worldwide, but only Honda makes them in America.
Edwin Black
The same criticism leveled against Honda for refusing the build and sell cars was lodged against Honda-controlled Fuelmaker for declining to sell the Phill refueling units in most locales that wanted them. The combination of no car and no refueler ensured that production and sales were suppressed. One executive in the Honda-Fuelmaker combination with knowledge of sales quipped, “Suppression? That's True. I can't tell you the number of times we could not sell product because the cars were not made available.”
Critics have suggested that Honda refused to produce more Honda GX units because as consumers fled to alternative vehicles, sales of the company’s most profitable gas guzzler cratered. These included the Ridgeline and the Pilot, both among the most fuel inefficient vehicles in the nation. These models in some instances suffered more than a 40 percent decline in one month during last year’s oil price run-up.
Honda’s conduct was further challenged during a much-vaunted push by T. Boone Pickens to proliferate natural gas vehicles. Pickens’ company, Clean Energy, tried to purchase Fuelmaker for $17 million, which would break the shackles imposed on the CNG market. But at the last minute, the deal fell apart, reportedly because Honda refused to provide the ordinary financials required in due diligence.
“Honda wanted to sell the company to any of several investors,” confirmed an employee at the Honda-Fuelmaker combination with access to financial information. Clean Energy was just one of the firms that showed interest, the employee added. “But they always screwed up the negotiations. Honda attorneys always ended up pissing people off.” The employee asked that no name be used for fear of retaliation by Honda, a common refrain of those interviewed for this story.
• SEE ALSO: Author Edwin Black Blasts SUVs as National Security Risks
One disheartened Fuelmaker technical support manager sent an email, obtained by this reporter, protesting to bankruptcy receiver MacKenzie, “We are convinced that Honda of America does not understand or appreciate the impact of ceasing all FuelMaker activities without considering some type of contingency plan for existing users who require parts and services to maintain their equipment until such time as they can make alternate fuelling arrangements.”
In Ontario Canada alone, more than 300 FuelMaker stations serve a variety of fleets, including such special purpose off-road vehicles as ice resurfacers and forklifts. Many of these vehicles are exclusively fueled by natural gas and “are totally dependant on the FuelMaker equipment that refuels them,” according to a Canadian Fuelmaker service employee. More one thousands forklifts and 100 ice resurfacers will be effected. Ice resurfacers require refueling every two days. “If a defective refueling system is not repaired in this time frame,” a Fuelmaker service expert confirmed in a written statement circulated to dealers, then “ice grooming operations cease and municipalities have no choice but to cancel tournaments, events and bookings for their arenas. There is no alternate vehicle that can be used to carry out the functions of an ice resurfacer.” He added, “Forklifts carry approximately four hours worth of fuel on board. There are often dozens of them in factories running 24 hours per day. Immediate response to breakdowns in forklift applications is critical. Without forklifts, factory operations grind to a halt in very short order.” Ironically,” the email pointed out, “Two Honda of Canada auto plants in Alliston and their main parts supplier Simcoe Parts Supply directly across the street, jointly operate close to 100 forklifts and make use of four large FuelMaker refueling stations.”
An email distributed by a Fuelmaker employee to CNG circles in North America about the effected Honda factories in Canada harshly chided Honda management. “How ironic that Honda of America in their infinite wisdom,” stated the email, “is now crippling two of their own auto plants because they refuse to exercise responsible management of their affairs!”
One Fuelmaker employee reported about conversations with shocked customers. “When they heard FuelMaker had gone bankrupt they were absolutely livid towards Honda of America that provisions for spare parts and repair services had not been considered as part of the wind down,” he stated.
According to a written statement drafted over the weekend by an executive in the Honda-Fuelmaker combination, and obtained by this reporter, “FuelMaker alone had three full-time service technicians covering over 250 stations in Ontario. Each technician handled 2-3 service calls per day. Therefore between 3 PM Thursday afternoon when operations at FuelMaker ceased and now, Sunday morning, there are at least fifteen calls that have gone unanswered and therefore fifteen facilities with dedicated natural gas vehicles that are in serious trouble RIGHT NOW! Ontario represents only a fraction of the world population of equipment. In twenty years, FuelMaker manufactured over 13,000 compression units and sold them in more than thirty countries. Most of those units are still in operation today. The Ontario market represents less than 10% of the world market so as you can imagine, what I am describing above is also happening all over the world.”
Safety sources in Canada wondered if makeshift solutions to the disappearance of spare parts and service would pose an explosive hazard. “There is a serious risk,” wrote one source involved in addressing refueling safety, “that someone is going to cobble together a substandard countermeasure to a problem that arises because they can't get parts and their facility and vehicles are totally dependant on their FuelMaker refueling equipment.”
Several employees worried over a safety crisis caused by Honda circulated a note calling for a rescue plan to salvage at least the service aspect. Even if no more refueling devices are produced, the ones out there need service and spare parts, stated an employee not wishing to provide a name so as not to jeopardize on-going efforts with Honda. One email asking for a rescue meeting declared, “Time is of the essence. This meeting must take place as soon as possible. Please do your best to make it happen.”
Fuelmaker president John Lyon confirmed to this reporter, “Fuelmaker management was aware that American Honda was trying to sell its Fuelmaker stock and intellectual property to a company that would provide the synergies necessary to move Fuelmaker to the next step of efficiency and profitability. This was public knowledge.” But Lyon added, “We were shocked to learn this week from a third party (not Honda) that American Honda was planning to put Fuelmaker into bankruptcy and sell the assets. I feel badly for the dedicated Fuelmaker employees who were all terminated on Thursday without notice or severance. Also I am concerned about the suppliers and Fuelmaker’s customers who are left without any support. Hopefully someone will see this as an opportunity and come to the rescue. It is a sad day for the NGV industry, the environment and energy security,” Lyon concluded.
“This is a real setback for the NGV industry,” agreed Richard Kolodziej, director of the leading CNG trade group, Natural Gas Vehicles America. “Natural gas home refueling is a significant benefit for residential customers. The idea is so compelling that we fully expect another manufacturer to enter the market soon.”
Some Honda business partners held out hope that somehow good reasoning prevailed. “It is disappointing but I am not surprised,” asserted a senior executive with AutoNation, the country’s largest owner of new car dealerships, and a strong advocate of alternative fuel vehicles such as the Honda GX. “With the price of gasoline at $2,” the AutoNation executive continued, “and the economy the way it is, things have changed.” But he added, “Everything for Honda does, they have a solid reason. When you deal with Honda you deal with a thoughtful reasoned company.”
Ironically, nearly all key players contacted stated they had been kept in the dark about Honda’s plans for Fuelmaker, including the declaration of bankruptcy. Many stated they only learned of the bankruptcy from this reporter. This included key executives at Fuelmaker in Toronto, senior alternative fuel program managers at Honda in California, knowledgeable industry experts, dealer sources, customers, and CNG advocates.
Honda senior vice president John Mendel, contacted at a dealer event in Los Vegas, claimed he was not aware of the bankruptcy. He stated he would have a corporate spokesman call back within moments. No call came. When contacted again, he hung up the phone after this reporter identified himself.
Honda is scheduled to attend the Alternative Fuel Vehicle Institute National Conference in Orlando on April 19-22. But no Honda source would confirm whether the company was still attending. Alternative Fuel Vehicle Institute Director of Education and Business Programs Kimberly Taylor did not respond to repeated emails and phone calls about the conference. In the past the conference has been criticized for being under the sway of leading corporate funding sponsors such as GM and Ford who have a record of undermining alternative fuel vehicles.
A disconsolate Fuelmaker employee offered a final epitaph: “Phills certainly are dead. The entire company is now dead.” One executive in the CNG field that regularly works with Honda, added, “This sudden bankruptcy certainly plays into the idea that Honda is trying to kill the CNG vehicle market.”
Edwin Black is the New York Times best selling investigative author of IBM and the Holocaust, Internal Combustion and The Plan: How to Save America When the Oil Stops—or the Day Before (Dialog Press). More information about The Plan can be found at www.planforoilcrisis.com.
04-06-2009, 08:49 PM
#922
Not just a smell
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As you mentioned, there is an obvious size difference between a TSX and TL and a V6 TSX will cut into TL sales as much as the IS350 does the ES/GS350 or the BMW 330/335 does the 530/535.
This is blatantly obvious and talk of "cannibalization" are specious arguments favoured by haters for the sole purpose of hating... or hmmm... am I giving too much credit here?
04-06-2009, 08:52 PM
#923
Pro
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iforyou, I applaud your resolve in dealing with these haters, but don't spend too much effort on them.
As you mentioned, there is an obvious size difference between a TSX and TL and a V6 TSX will cut into TL sales as much as the IS350 does the ES/GS350 or the BMW 330/335 does the 530/535.
This is blatantly obvious and talk of "cannibalization" are specious arguments favoured by haters for the sole purpose of hating... or hmmm... am I giving too much credit here?
As you mentioned, there is an obvious size difference between a TSX and TL and a V6 TSX will cut into TL sales as much as the IS350 does the ES/GS350 or the BMW 330/335 does the 530/535.
This is blatantly obvious and talk of "cannibalization" are specious arguments favoured by haters for the sole purpose of hating... or hmmm... am I giving too much credit here?
04-07-2009, 02:26 AM
#924
6G TLX-S
If Acura had put the 244hp 3L-V6 powerplant (from Honda Accord) into the TSX, the world would have been perfect. Firstly, TSX now has a V6. Rejoice - say the V6 crowds. Secondly, the 3.5L-V6 base TL can still edge out the lighter V6 TSX in hp, and thus no more TL sales cannibalization. The only other scenario that a 3.5L-V6 TSX won't cannibalize the TL sales is when the TL has the V8 option engine, just like BMW, MB, Audi, and Lexus. Very unfortunate is that Acura won't be having a V8 for years to come.
04-07-2009, 03:24 AM
#925
If Acura had put the 244hp 3L-V6 powerplant (from Honda Accord) into the TSX, the world would have been perfect. Firstly, TSX now has a V6. Rejoice - say the V6 crowds. Secondly, the 3.5L-V6 base TL can still edge out the lighter V6 TSX in hp, and thus no more TL sales cannibalization. The only other scenario that a 3.5L-V6 TSX won't cannibalize the TL sales is when the TL has the V8 option engine, just like BMW, MB, Audi, and Lexus. Very unfortunate is that Acura won't be having a V8 for years to come.
if you want a prime example of "cannibalization" see the sales of the 2G RL before and after the 4G TL. Though the terrible MMC definitely had a hand in that, from what I recall the RL numbers tanked.... and with no surprise. oh and nice job Honda on the whole Fuelmaker ordeal. There's a Civic GX I see at my school all the time.... guess that was kinda short lived. I still doubt that article's credibility, if that's true then that's pretty damn shady. Guess you gotta cut your losses somewhere. and
@ the whole hybrid > diesel thing. Yeah, since "hybrids" don't use gas at all, they're definitely more of a sustainable solution to the inevitable gas crisis than diesel is.... 
04-07-2009, 08:00 AM
#926
Racer
Yeah, who would have thought people on an enthusiast forum would complain about Acura making a car too powerful.
04-07-2009, 08:48 AM
#927
Senior Moderator
If Acura had put the 244hp 3L-V6 powerplant (from Honda Accord) into the TSX, the world would have been perfect. Firstly, TSX now has a V6. Rejoice - say the V6 crowds. Secondly, the 3.5L-V6 base TL can still edge out the lighter V6 TSX in hp, and thus no more TL sales cannibalization. The only other scenario that a 3.5L-V6 TSX won't cannibalize the TL sales is when the TL has the V8 option engine, just like BMW, MB, Audi, and Lexus. Very unfortunate is that Acura won't be having a V8 for years to come.
04-07-2009, 11:33 AM
#928
The sizzle in the Steak
So Honda not only does not want diesel, but now CNG too? 
04-07-2009, 11:42 AM
#929
Senior Moderator
Who cares what cannibalizes what in the Acura lineup. That's Honda's problem.
Not only is the 3.0L out of production, but its also heavier than the 3.5. Lose - Lose situation.
Not only is the 3.0L out of production, but its also heavier than the 3.5. Lose - Lose situation.
04-07-2009, 02:00 PM
#930
Pro
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If Acura had put the 244hp 3L-V6 powerplant (from Honda Accord) into the TSX, the world would have been perfect. Firstly, TSX now has a V6. Rejoice - say the V6 crowds. Secondly, the 3.5L-V6 base TL can still edge out the lighter V6 TSX in hp, and thus no more TL sales cannibalization. The only other scenario that a 3.5L-V6 TSX won't cannibalize the TL sales is when the TL has the V8 option engine, just like BMW, MB, Audi, and Lexus. Very unfortunate is that Acura won't be having a V8 for years to come.
04-07-2009, 02:52 PM
#931
I fully expect Acura to be able to offer a loaded TSX in the same price range of a base TL. Why should any cannibalization take place here? I'm sure this is a part of the plan to offer more choices to buyers and isn't this what everyone is complaining about (lack of choice)?. If TSXs continue to be made in Japan, I expect them to be available in relatively smaller quantities and this alone would limit how many base TL sales are (potentially) lost.
04-07-2009, 05:18 PM
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That's why you see test mules of this RWD "TSX" running around......why did they bother mentioning about their tier 1 goal when their cars are not ready? Well, if they don't, there will be even more complaints. Even though we know that they are making a RWD chassis, even though we know that they are developing a V8, there are still folks who complain we are not getting any of those. Imagine what would happen if they didn't say anything at all.
04-07-2009, 05:19 PM
#933
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iforyou, I applaud your resolve in dealing with these haters, but don't spend too much effort on them.
As you mentioned, there is an obvious size difference between a TSX and TL and a V6 TSX will cut into TL sales as much as the IS350 does the ES/GS350 or the BMW 330/335 does the 530/535.
This is blatantly obvious and talk of "cannibalization" are specious arguments favoured by haters for the sole purpose of hating... or hmmm... am I giving too much credit here?
As you mentioned, there is an obvious size difference between a TSX and TL and a V6 TSX will cut into TL sales as much as the IS350 does the ES/GS350 or the BMW 330/335 does the 530/535.
This is blatantly obvious and talk of "cannibalization" are specious arguments favoured by haters for the sole purpose of hating... or hmmm... am I giving too much credit here?
And SSFTSX, my post was to address your question of why make a V6 TSX. Nothing else. Nothing about diesel.
04-07-2009, 05:24 PM
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If Acura had put the 244hp 3L-V6 powerplant (from Honda Accord) into the TSX, the world would have been perfect. Firstly, TSX now has a V6. Rejoice - say the V6 crowds. Secondly, the 3.5L-V6 base TL can still edge out the lighter V6 TSX in hp, and thus no more TL sales cannibalization. The only other scenario that a 3.5L-V6 TSX won't cannibalize the TL sales is when the TL has the V8 option engine, just like BMW, MB, Audi, and Lexus. Very unfortunate is that Acura won't be having a V8 for years to come.
"244hp? 212lbft of torque? Who are they competing with? The TSX already doesn't have have SH-AWD or RWD, and now, even in its high-performance model, it's still lacking in power and torque. And not to mention it's going to be heavier than the 7g Accord, and that thing wasn't very fast with a 5AT. In other words, this V6 TSX is still going to be slow. I bet you even the 328i will be faster. How sad. Guys at BMW/Infiniti/MB/Lexus must be laughing so hard now. What are they thinking? Honda or Acura seriously need to hire new management people."
04-07-2009, 08:00 PM
#935
6G TLX-S
Out of production doesn't mean you can't bring it back when there is a real application for it. Nowadays, the trend for all economy brand vehicles is to go small. I don't think it is a wining situation either with a company like Honda which is crying "green" all the time to go backwards by replacing a smaller-sized engine with a bigger-sized engine. What happens to all the Honda wizards who are world famous for squeezing big hp out of small engines back in the good old days.
04-07-2009, 08:04 PM
#936
6G TLX-S
A more powerful, lighter, bigger-displacement engine to replace a less powerful, heavier, smaller displacement engine, by sacrificing fuel consumption. Hasn't Honda forgot about what makes it famous for - good fuel economy.
04-07-2009, 08:14 PM
#937
6G TLX-S
I would imagine if they followed your plan of putting the 3L V6 244hp engine into the TSX, there will be people saying stuff like,
"244hp? 212lbft of torque? Who are they competing with? The TSX already doesn't have have SH-AWD or RWD, and now, even in its high-performance model, it's still lacking in power and torque. And not to mention it's going to be heavier than the 7g Accord, and that thing wasn't very fast with a 5AT. In other words, this V6 TSX is still going to be slow. I bet you even the 328i will be faster. How sad. Guys at BMW/Infiniti/MB/Lexus must be laughing so hard now. What are they thinking? Honda or Acura seriously need to hire new management people."
"244hp? 212lbft of torque? Who are they competing with? The TSX already doesn't have have SH-AWD or RWD, and now, even in its high-performance model, it's still lacking in power and torque. And not to mention it's going to be heavier than the 7g Accord, and that thing wasn't very fast with a 5AT. In other words, this V6 TSX is still going to be slow. I bet you even the 328i will be faster. How sad. Guys at BMW/Infiniti/MB/Lexus must be laughing so hard now. What are they thinking? Honda or Acura seriously need to hire new management people."
With Honda's engine tuning expertise, it is not difficult to boost another 20 or so hp into the 3L-V6 TSX in the later years, and by then the TL would have the 290hp V6 and perhaps V8 as engine choices. Thus, no conflicts, no cannibalization.
04-07-2009, 08:24 PM
#938
Senior Moderator
Out of production doesn't mean you can't bring it back when there is a real application for it. Nowadays, the trend for all economy brand vehicles is to go small. I don't think it is a wining situation either with a company like Honda which is crying "green" all the time to go backwards by replacing a smaller-sized engine with a bigger-sized engine. What happens to all the Honda wizards who are world famous for squeezing big hp out of small engines back in the good old days.
As for what happened to the wizards, I've been wondering that myself for awhile. Seems Honda has been stuck at 200 HP/no torque in their 4's since the late 90's. We all know where their V6 is.
04-07-2009, 09:03 PM
#940
04-07-2009, 10:07 PM
#941
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04-07-2009, 11:38 PM
#942
while i showed actual data that other companies are doing very well with diesels. but Lexus collapsing far more despite having impressive hybrid line up. It was time to make one up on Lexus by Introducing diesel.
http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6507...els/index.html
Takeo Fukui, Honda Motor Co. President says he will not lower the price of the 2010 Insight hybrid in response to Toyota cutting the price of its upcoming 2010 Prius hybrid. He also said a new hybrid powertain is in the works for larger cars that will take place of a clean diesel engine which was originally planned instead.
In a report from Automotive News, Fukui confirmed that the price of the Insight would not change despite Toyota's decision to lower the price of the Prius. "I don't think that would be meaningful to do so," he said. Many thought Honda might lower its price to engage in a hybrid price war with its domestic rival.
Fukui also said Honda has decided not to proceed with its plans to put clean diesel engines in its large cars. He cites the cost of clearing tough emissions regulations in the United States and Japan as the reason. The more cost-effective solution will be a modified or possibly new hybrid drive system which will instead become the future green drivetrain for big vehicles.
Honda has not said when it will begin to offer a hybrid powertrain in its larger vehicles. Meanwhile, the hybrid sales face-off will take place next month when the 2010 Insight (which reached U.S. dealers last month) will take on the 2010 Prius when it goes on sale.
Source: Automotive News
Takeo Fukui, Honda Motor Co. President says he will not lower the price of the 2010 Insight hybrid in response to Toyota cutting the price of its upcoming 2010 Prius hybrid. He also said a new hybrid powertain is in the works for larger cars that will take place of a clean diesel engine which was originally planned instead.
In a report from Automotive News, Fukui confirmed that the price of the Insight would not change despite Toyota's decision to lower the price of the Prius. "I don't think that would be meaningful to do so," he said. Many thought Honda might lower its price to engage in a hybrid price war with its domestic rival.
Fukui also said Honda has decided not to proceed with its plans to put clean diesel engines in its large cars. He cites the cost of clearing tough emissions regulations in the United States and Japan as the reason. The more cost-effective solution will be a modified or possibly new hybrid drive system which will instead become the future green drivetrain for big vehicles.
Honda has not said when it will begin to offer a hybrid powertrain in its larger vehicles. Meanwhile, the hybrid sales face-off will take place next month when the 2010 Insight (which reached U.S. dealers last month) will take on the 2010 Prius when it goes on sale.
Source: Automotive News
http://www.benzinsider.com/2009/04/m...n-competitors/
Mercedes-Benz crushes Canadian competitors
The diesel sales ratio was 51.3% for the month
Canadian March sales for Mercedes-Benz and its competitors were as follows:
Acura 1,211
Audi 979
BMW 1,711
Infiniti 581
Jaguar 57
Lexus 1,363
Mercedes 2,181
Saab 172
Volvo 491
Mercedes-Benz crushes Canadian competitors
The diesel sales ratio was 51.3% for the month
Canadian March sales for Mercedes-Benz and its competitors were as follows:
Acura 1,211
Audi 979
BMW 1,711
Infiniti 581
Jaguar 57
Lexus 1,363
Mercedes 2,181
Saab 172
Volvo 491
04-07-2009, 11:55 PM
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Do you really expect the difference in fuel economy to be extremely significant. I'd be more than willing to sacrifice 2 mpg for a lighter, more powerful, more advanced engine. And as others have already said, all of the armchair critics would have been out in full force if Acura had added a V6 with less than 250 hp.
Last edited by JD23; 04-07-2009 at 11:58 PM.
04-07-2009, 11:57 PM
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04-08-2009, 02:04 AM
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SSFTSX, I think you misunderstood my post. Let me try again, I was simply trying to explain why there's a V6 model for the TSX, and like you said above, there's a demand. Of course, there's also demand for diesel, I didn't say there's no demand for that, now did I?
04-08-2009, 02:14 AM
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Do you really expect the difference in fuel economy to be extremely significant. I'd be more than willing to sacrifice 2 mpg for a lighter, more powerful, more advanced engine. And as others have already said, all of the armchair critics would have been out in full force if Acura had added a V6 with less than 250 hp.
2007 Accord V6 5AT - 18 city/26 hwy/ 21 combined
2009 TL FWD - 18 city/26 hwy/ 21 combined
Source: http://www.fueleconomy.gov
Note that the TL FWD is much heavier than the Accord V6 too.
May be by now, Honda can squeeze a few more hp/torque and 1mpg out of the J30, but is it more cost effective than simply making more J35's?
1.) Make J30 for TSX V6, and J35 for TL FWD, or
2.) Make the same J35 for both TSX V6 and TL FWD
Based on this, I think the choice is rather simple.
04-08-2009, 02:18 AM
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Plain and simple. The 244hp/212lbft V6 TSX is to better the I-4 TSX. The I-4 TSX has been in the loser's quarter vs it's V6 competitors for ever since it's debut, any V6 is gonna make those V6 TSX screamers happy. Remember a V6 is always better than no V6.
With Honda's engine tuning expertise, it is not difficult to boost another 20 or so hp into the 3L-V6 TSX in the later years, and by then the TL would have the 290hp V6 and perhaps V8 as engine choices. Thus, no conflicts, no cannibalization.
With Honda's engine tuning expertise, it is not difficult to boost another 20 or so hp into the 3L-V6 TSX in the later years, and by then the TL would have the 290hp V6 and perhaps V8 as engine choices. Thus, no conflicts, no cannibalization.
I agree it's always better to have a V6. But don't you think it's also better to have a lighter and more powerful engine, yet returning pretty much the same fuel economy (as shown in my other post)? The only thing you would have to worry about is torque steer, but we will need to see some road tests before we can find out.
04-08-2009, 02:22 AM
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Not a bad argument. But I can see how Honda couldn't justify the expense of manufacturing another engine so similar to the 3.5.
As for what happened to the wizards, I've been wondering that myself for awhile. Seems Honda has been stuck at 200 HP/no torque in their 4's since the late 90's. We all know where their V6 is.
As for what happened to the wizards, I've been wondering that myself for awhile. Seems Honda has been stuck at 200 HP/no torque in their 4's since the late 90's. We all know where their V6 is.
And their V6 is greatly limited by the ability to rev due to the SOHC design IMO.
04-08-2009, 07:09 AM
#949
The K23T is just a shame.
04-08-2009, 05:36 PM
#950
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I don't know....I personally wouldn't mind the extra torque, power and improved fuel efficiency that usually come with a FI engine....but...that would make it very un-Honda. I mean, can you imagine a stock Type R with a turbocharged engine? I personally would want to see Honda do bore out the K20 (if possible) to keep the high redline, gets more hp, and improve torque by a bit. Building high revving, high hp, good sounding I4 engines is part of the Type R spirit IMO.
I think the real problem is that Honda is only bringing the "warmish" Civic here - the Civic Si. The Type R is simply in another league....lapping the Tsukuba race circuit in 1:07, 3 full seconds faster than even the Mazdaspeed 3.
I think the real problem is that Honda is only bringing the "warmish" Civic here - the Civic Si. The Type R is simply in another league....lapping the Tsukuba race circuit in 1:07, 3 full seconds faster than even the Mazdaspeed 3.
04-09-2009, 10:40 AM
#951
6G TLX-S
You are right JD23, there is no difference in fuel economy between the J30 and J35. Here is an example.
2007 Accord V6 5AT - 18 city/26 hwy/ 21 combined
2009 TL FWD - 18 city/26 hwy/ 21 combined
Source: http://www.fueleconomy.gov
Note that the TL FWD is much heavier than the Accord V6 too.
.....
2007 Accord V6 5AT - 18 city/26 hwy/ 21 combined
2009 TL FWD - 18 city/26 hwy/ 21 combined
Source: http://www.fueleconomy.gov
Note that the TL FWD is much heavier than the Accord V6 too.
.....
2007 Accord 3L-V6
Accord
EX V-6
First 2.563
2nd 1.552
3rd 1.021
4th 0.727
5th 0.520
Reverse 1.846
Final Drive Ratio 4.428
2009 TL FWD 3.5L-V6
Gear Ratios (:1)
1st 2.70
2nd 1.61
3rd 1.07
4th 0.69
5th 0.49
Reverse 1.89
Final Drive 4.31
04-09-2009, 10:53 AM
#952
6G TLX-S
Do you really expect the difference in fuel economy to be extremely significant. I'd be more than willing to sacrifice 2 mpg for a lighter, more powerful, more advanced engine. And as others have already said, all of the armchair critics would have been out in full force if Acura had added a V6 with less than 250 hp.
I don't really think it makes much difference with the 244hp (from the 3L-V6) vs the 250hp that the armchair critics want. A mere 6hp will get nobody nowhere.
04-09-2009, 03:15 PM
#953
In the old days, Honda cars were always using a smaller engine than the competitors; but even though smaller, Honda was still able to crank out equivalent or even higher hp than the competitors, and better fuel mileage than the competitors. This is what makes the Honda brand so famous and so popular.
I think the problem with the 'old days' is that the brand has grown so much that the 'old customers' are outnumbered by the masses. The masses rejected cars like the Integra GS-R sedan in favor of a cheaper V6 Accord and an automatic transmission. Acura responded with the G1 TSX which had more torque at the expense of a 7800 rpm redline. I cannot say if this choice is a good one, but as with all things, I'm sure it was made with the intention that the benefits outweighed the negatives.
04-09-2009, 03:29 PM
#954
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Not a fair comparison. Different transmission, different gear ratios.
2007 Accord 3L-V6
Accord
EX V-6
First 2.563
2nd 1.552
3rd 1.021
4th 0.727
5th 0.520
Reverse 1.846
Final Drive Ratio 4.428
2009 TL FWD 3.5L-V6
Gear Ratios (:1)
1st 2.70
2nd 1.61
3rd 1.07
4th 0.69
5th 0.49
Reverse 1.89
Final Drive 4.31
2007 Accord 3L-V6
Accord
EX V-6
First 2.563
2nd 1.552
3rd 1.021
4th 0.727
5th 0.520
Reverse 1.846
Final Drive Ratio 4.428
2009 TL FWD 3.5L-V6
Gear Ratios (:1)
1st 2.70
2nd 1.61
3rd 1.07
4th 0.69
5th 0.49
Reverse 1.89
Final Drive 4.31
Anyways, let's just say we agree to disagree, how's that? It's not like I will ever be able to convince, and you won't be able to convince me either.
04-09-2009, 06:05 PM
#955
6G TLX-S
Exactly, with the extra displacement, torque, and power, it can afford to have taller ratios. The Accord's engine would be running at 1800rpm at 60mph, while the TL runs at 1600rpm at 60mph. Anyways, does it matter how the TL can achieve the same mpg as the Accord V6? I personally don't really care. As a consumer, I care about the following: the 3.5L engine is lighter, more powerful, better low-end torque, can return better mpg on a heavier car, runs at a lower speed when cruising on the highway, hence lower engine noise. On Honda's side, they can focus on building the J35 only, no need to make J30, that would save some $$ for them.
Anyways, let's just say we agree to disagree, how's that? It's not like I will ever be able to convince, and you won't be able to convince me either.
Anyways, let's just say we agree to disagree, how's that? It's not like I will ever be able to convince, and you won't be able to convince me either.
04-09-2009, 06:24 PM
#956
6G TLX-S
I hope you don't think I'm following you around! I think the problem with the 'old days' is that the brand has grown so much that the 'old customers' are outnumbered by the masses. The masses rejected cars like the Integra GS-R sedan in favor of a cheaper V6 Accord and an automatic transmission. Acura responded with the G1 TSX which had more torque at the expense of a 7800 rpm redline. I cannot say if this choice is a good one, but as with all things, I'm sure it was made with the intention that the benefits outweighed the negatives.
I think the problem with the 'old days' is that the brand has grown so much that the 'old customers' are outnumbered by the masses. The masses rejected cars like the Integra GS-R sedan in favor of a cheaper V6 Accord and an automatic transmission. Acura responded with the G1 TSX which had more torque at the expense of a 7800 rpm redline. I cannot say if this choice is a good one, but as with all things, I'm sure it was made with the intention that the benefits outweighed the negatives.The Honda Accord is always popular and has been so even before the existence of the Acura brand. The Integra/RSX (compact class) were more sporty for the younger crowds, whereas the Accord (mid-size class) is more conservative for the family crowds. There were never any conflict whatsoever.
04-09-2009, 07:06 PM
#957
I don't know....I personally wouldn't mind the extra torque, power and improved fuel efficiency that usually come with a FI engine....but...that would make it very un-Honda. I mean, can you imagine a stock Type R with a turbocharged engine? I personally would want to see Honda do bore out the K20 (if possible) to keep the high redline, gets more hp, and improve torque by a bit. Building high revving, high hp, good sounding I4 engines is part of the Type R spirit IMO.
I think the real problem is that Honda is only bringing the "warmish" Civic here - the Civic Si. The Type R is simply in another league....lapping the Tsukuba race circuit in 1:07, 3 full seconds faster than even the Mazdaspeed 3.
I think the real problem is that Honda is only bringing the "warmish" Civic here - the Civic Si. The Type R is simply in another league....lapping the Tsukuba race circuit in 1:07, 3 full seconds faster than even the Mazdaspeed 3.
They can delay the inevitable as long as possible, but they'll always be a step behind power and torque-wise until the put a V6 or bigger displacement (usually lower revving due to increased stroke) and/or forced induction in their smaller vehicles. Not to mention Honda is not known for 4-cylinders with high torque.
Honda clearly has the chassis engineering down, they just need to get the engines to back them up. High-revving engines are fun but torque is more practical. Case in point, the Real Time Racing RSX with uses a K24 block, which probably is to increase torque, not to mention reliability. I remember they had some problems with their K20 engines.
04-10-2009, 01:32 AM
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No need on agreeing to disagree. I'm with you on this one. I like big engines, big hp, big torque, good handling. But when looking at the big picture, that's not the principle of Honda/Acura which is famous for generating more from less. I guess things change, people change. Now Honda/Acura has lost the technical wizardry touch that has enabled the brand to stand out among others.
I guess most of Honda engineers are too busy developing the RWD chassis, V8 engine, new hybrids, the 6AT, and perhaps they don't have too many engineers working on a new V6 engine (or upgrades for the J series)?
I think I have said this before, what I would really like to see is a Honda V6 completed with DOHC, DI, and continuous vvt and lift, one that's not too complicated and bulky like VVEL and valvetronic that limit high rpm power, and if possible, a twin-turbo setup like the 335i.
04-10-2009, 01:38 AM
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The only model in the Honda/Acura lineup that truly interests me is the S2000.... a hard-edged roadster, more extreme than even the MX-5 and follows a different formula than everything else. The problem then is the small natural aspirated displacement then limits the potential of the car.... there's no easy, cheap way to make additional power to satisfy their desires.... aside from F/I which most of the competitors now have.
They can delay the inevitable as long as possible, but they'll always be a step behind power and torque-wise until the put a V6 or bigger displacement (usually lower revving due to increased stroke) and/or forced induction in their smaller vehicles. Not to mention Honda is not known for 4-cylinders with high torque.
Honda clearly has the chassis engineering down, they just need to get the engines to back them up. High-revving engines are fun but torque is more practical. Case in point, the Real Time Racing RSX with uses a K24 block, which probably is to increase torque, not to mention reliability. I remember they had some problems with their K20 engines.
They can delay the inevitable as long as possible, but they'll always be a step behind power and torque-wise until the put a V6 or bigger displacement (usually lower revving due to increased stroke) and/or forced induction in their smaller vehicles. Not to mention Honda is not known for 4-cylinders with high torque.
Honda clearly has the chassis engineering down, they just need to get the engines to back them up. High-revving engines are fun but torque is more practical. Case in point, the Real Time Racing RSX with uses a K24 block, which probably is to increase torque, not to mention reliability. I remember they had some problems with their K20 engines.
04-10-2009, 02:27 AM
#960
I guess it wouldn't be a bad thing if they had different engine choices. Let's use the S2000 as example since you were talking about it. On top of the 2.0L (2.2L) engine for the base model, wouldn't it be nice if they put something like the C32B engine in the S2000? That would hopefully satisfy both you and me. It's still high revving with a 8k redline, but it also produces decent amount of torque with a flat torque curve with 290hp. Especially the NSX has been gone for a while, I really don't mind having a car like this in the Honda line up.
I agree completely. Apparently that was the rumor for the upcoming S2000 replacement. Maybe they can rework the J37, make it DOHC and oversquare, and get it to be high revving like the C32B. That way they can make it a high-revving V6, yet at the same time probably have some pretty good torque.Not sure how much cylinder wall they have left to work with in the J-series but that would be awesome....