ttribe

Oh good grief, there are a variety of exemptions all over the place; for example - http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...308019933/1320

Furthermore, I think you are overestimating the degree to which these "exemptions" are aiding these manufacturers given the levied fines: http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rul...ed_summary.pdf

You also might want to get some more recent data; check the performance of 2011 model years - http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rul...ary_Report.pdf

The fact of the matter is, during the same month that BMW offered its ECU flash for the 335 and 135, they agreed to the Obama Administrations CAFE targets north of 54MPG. You've still failed to link the two issues.

Stop shooting yourself in the foot with weakly supported arguments; they make you look more and more like you lack any semblance of objectivity.

This.

Professor

I'd thought Acura would have used alot more aluminum in the TSX to reduce weight. B ut people are correct about the price point... in fact one dealer offered a TL with Tech cheaper than a TSX V6 tech.

Luckily I found another dealer and bought $5K below sticker, and I was still fresh with the sour taste of the third tranny dump in my 2003 TL.

Invisible

Sorry, but it is YOU that is going out of your way to promote BMW here.

Thanks for playing.

Thanks for flinging personal insults.

Now you are added to my list to IGNORE.

Invisible

I guess next, the BMW fanboys will be complaining that Acuras don't have plastic seat covers.

ttribe

So, because I refuted your weak argument, you run away and hide?

I used BMW as an example; I wasn't attempting to promote the brand.

Oh boy, let me break this down for you in terms of what I, and my wife, have owned:

From the time I was 16-19 ('87-'91) I owned a '76 Datsun pickup truck.

I then spent 2 years away from home where I didn't need a car ('91-'93)

When I returned home, I purchased a '91 Acura Integra LS-SE which I owned for 8 years ('93-'01)

I got married in '94 and purchased a second car for my wife in '96 - an '87 Honda Accord LX which we kept until '00.

In '00 we bought an '00 Honda Accord SE which we kept until '06.

We had a '96 Accord LX that we got in '01 that was stolen and totaled in '03.

In 2003, we purchased a '03 Honda Pilot EX-L that we still have today.

I purchased an '06 Acura TL in '06.

I sold my '06 TL in July of this year and purchased my '07 BMW M5.

For the past 17 years all we had was Hondas and Acuras. I was a brand loyalist and then they lost me. They've gone nowhere. I wanted to like the 4G TL; I couldn't. I wanted to like the latest generation of the Pilot; I can't.

In short, I am the last guy you should be writing off as a "fan-boy" for some other brand. On the contrary, I represent all that's gone wrong with Honda's ability to keep its customers.

dom

Ok guys, lets get this thread back on topic, TSX.

Feel free to continue the discussion in the Acura Future News thread.

ttribe

Okay. Sorry. Just had to defend myself.

knavinusa

Oh boy, how this thread has changed since he joined the fray.

Costco

Well done ttribe. Clearly you drive a Civic, just like everyone else who complains about Honda and the lack of adrenaline in their lineup

What do you think will make the TSX appealing to a buyer such as yourself? After you have now taken the step up to an M5, that is. Or is it beyond redemption now?

ttribe

I think the Acura brand, in general, needs an entirely new direction. That being said, when the 4G TL came out and I was disappointed, along with many others, I had high hopes for the V6 TSX as the "spiritual" successor to the 3G TL. However, when I actually looked at one, I was disappointed in some of the quality corners I felt like they were cutting (e.g. no rear AC, too much plastic, etc.).

This SE is a lot like my SE Integra. It adds a few cosmetic enhancements that make the vehicle look a little more sporty, but it's not going to fool anyone who understands what an actual performance sedan can do. In short, I think this version of the TSX will be popular with a relatively young crowd, but it won't build lasting brand loyalty because owners will always be wishing for more from it.

knavinusa

I give Acura credit for making the new TL in SH-AWD trim a good performer, but the styling, even after the facelift is ugly. It's just too bloated for a performance sedan. If they could drop the underpinnings on a smaller, more agile body they could have a real contender.

ttribe

Yes, but even at that, Acura's entire SH-AWD system is based on a FWD platform. I think that's still problematic from a performance standpoint.

VTEC Racer

I don't see how it is problematic when even with a FWD platform, it still manages to outperform almost every car in its class on a track.

ttribe

I have no way to confirm or refute your "outperform almost every car in its class on a track comment", but it's biased toward the front wheels and any efforts to increase the power output of the engine are going to mess with the torque steer dampening.

VTEC Racer

All you have to do is look up any magazine article that has the TL up against any other car in its class. There is a decent amount.

Power is only biased to the front wheels when the car is cruising (when the difference between FWD and RWD is non-existent), and even then the rear is still receiving power. When under a performance situation, the rear wheels receive up to 70% of the power. I've never read any magazine complain about having issues with torque steer with SH-AWD, so it's highly unlikely that the TL or any Acura equipped with SH-AWD will exhibit such.

ttribe

I'm curious, because I honestly don't know, what is the experience of people who have increased the power output from the engine and how that interacts with the AWD system?

VTEC Racer

I don't know because I don't know of anyone who has increased the engine output of their SH-AWD equipped car by a significant amount. I would assume it would follow the same route any car would when engine power is increased substantially over stock. A FWD car will suffer the most, followed by a RWD, and last, (IMO) an SH-AWD type of car.

With a RWD car, a 200hp bump over stock, for example, still has to go to the rear two wheels only. To make use of that power in say a 335i, there really needs to be upgrades to the wheels and possibly suspension in order to put the power down without spinning out all the time. With SH-AWD, even on a FWD platform, (IMO) it can handle a 200hp bump much more efficiently. With approximately 505 hp, when SH-AWD shifts power during a time of performance driving, you would have 353 hp going to the rear wheels and and 152 hp going to the front wheels. Considering the experience Acura has with FWD, 152 hp to the front wheels is nothing and is far from exhibiting any torque steer.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm for a FWD chassis. My ideal setup would be SH-AWD in a rear-wheel drive chassis. However, the point I was trying to make is that the FWD platform of the TL isn't as limiting to performance as some people may think.

ttribe

Honestly, I don't know enough about the technology to dive too deeply into this, but my (somewhat informed) intuition tells me that a front-biased AWD system is going to reach the limits of performance sustainability quicker than a rear-biased one simply because of the designed tendency to run too much of the power through the wheels that are simultaneously being used for steering. That being said, just about everything on a modern vehicle seems to be adjustable with a few software tweaks; perhaps that is the case with this as well.

fsttyms1

But you seem to be missing the point that in a vectoring AWD system the power gets routed to the wheels with the most traction. If the rears are saying give me more power they get it not the front. You are thinking as though the awd system is only FWD. There is only so much power any set of wheels can put to the pavement efficiently, but if 4 wheels are doing it its better than just the rears regardless of fwd based system Ive driven the TL SHAWD on a track and it didnt exhibit the fwd style of driving.



some magazine articles

Lap times
Acura TL shawd: 1:01.51
BMW 335i Sport: 1:01.8
Infiniti G37S Sport: 1:01.96
Audi S4 (yes the one with a V8): 1:00.41


Then there is this article testing the same cars

http://www.insideline.com/acura/tl/2...rst-drive.html

ttribe

Cool. Like I said, I was going off intuition here. I stand corrected.

fsttyms1

I just wish there was a 400hp or so engine option to really take advantage of the great AWD system. (and set it apart from the TSX)

Yumcha

Well, can we just say that you don't buy a Honda/Acura anymore if you want to go supremely fast...?

Perhaps the demographic they are catering to (i.e. middle age family with kids) does not care so much about that?

ttribe

I was just about to add to my post above - given the capabilities of the AWD system, it's even more of a shame that Acura is handicapping these cars with sub-par engines compared to the competition - your post basically echoed my sentiment.

ttribe

<<<< Age 39, married, 3 kids.

Yumcha

You're probably 90th percentile.


I'm talking most people in the average part of the bell curve.

ttribe

Yeah, I know. I guess it's just a shame that Acura doesn't even let you have the option. No "M", no "S", no "F", no "AMG", not even "A-Spec" anymore. Just slightly warmed-over aesthetics on a "Special Edition".

dom

What Yumchah is getting at is, non-enthusiasts.

Yumcha

Yumcha

It's an interesting business model...and sure, while most manufacturers offer it, how much of their sale is comprised of the higher-performance (i.e. sporty) line?

For instance, in talking to my dealership, they still say the FX50S is not their bread-and-butter car and that I have one of only a small handful in the city. The rest of the FX buyers are all in 35s. It's literally a 15-1 ratio...

Same goes for the AMG cars at the Merc dealership...So, if you go with that, Honda's probably trying to maximize their profits/earnings and so, their logic is probably why build a trim that few people will buy.

Just a thought.

ttribe

Of course. That being said, most of the other luxury brands are catering, at least partially, to enthusiasts with options, etc. HMC has basically abandoned the enthusiast in favor of vanilla. That decision creates a perception issue for the brand.

I agree that it appears to be their approach. Is it working? I don't know. Honda/Acura sales have been down, but there are a variety of influencing factors there (economy, earthquake, etc.). Nevertheless, as a FORMER Acura enthusiast, I continue to lament the fact that they couldn't keep me in the fold. There was just nothing left to get excited about.

Yumcha

Well, if I could think out loud which manufacturers are kinda like Honda/Acura in this approach...

Volvo comes to mind.

ttribe

Yep, that's not a bad comparison. But, I'm not sure that the same company that advertises itself under the "Advance" marquee wants to be lumped in with a Swedish quasi-lux brand known more for it's boxy style and safety than anything else.

Yumcha

Well...hang on...that's Acura. Honda does not advertise itself that way.


The Acura line which, we all agree, is not in the luxury market but rather, a premium market. And in that regard, they are quite ahead of the pack in regards to what you get for the price. The cars are loaded with features...sure, some are things that some peeps yawn at...but, to the average joe, it is quite jammed with amenities.

ttribe

Hmm, I was just thinking in terms of pricing. I haven't really researched it, but doesn't Acura compete more with Volvo than Honda?

No doubt about it. That's one of the things that swung me toward my TL over a 3 series or an IS back in the day.

West6MT

Colin

Having customers leave the brand is never good, but H/A doesn't really make a car that would compete with an M5 (few manufacturers actually do). So, IMO, if that's the kind of car you want, its natural that you'd leave. From my perspective, of greater concern is the lack of a true entry level product to capture the imagination of the 20 year old mirror of yourself today. The TSX at ~30K is just too high compared to the '91 Integra (even if adjusted for inflation).

Professor

Very true. Go to the BMW or Merc site and build your own as closely as possible to a TSX Tech V6... you'll run $56K.

ttribe

Honestly, I stumbled upon the M5 (and glad to have done so, admittedly). I wasn't looking in that performance category when I first started getting antsy. I wanted more than my TL could give me and there was just no where to go in the Acura lineup. Now, had they an option, would I have even gone to the M5? Not sure; part of me says it's doubtful I would have ended up with what I have now.

ETA: You also make a good point about the entry-level for Acura. It strikes at the heart of the positioning of the Acura brand. Is it, in fact, a "premium" brand as Yumcha suggests? In that case, the TSX as an entry model is priced too high, IMO. Is it a luxury brand? In which case they aren't competing as well as they could with other brands' entry-level cars, at least in terms of the optioned-out version of the car.

fsttyms1

But why do some think that it needs to sell in high volume to be worth selling? It obviously works for Caddy, BMW, Merc etc... There is NO reason Acura couldnt put out a similar car to the V,M,AMG to give those that want that from the brand they like

Also acura seems to have gone so far up in median price they are targeting the higher income people , those that can and do want more and have the income to buy it. An entry level car for the 20s crowd just doesnt seem to fit their direction as of late.

Colin

I can't answer that definitively, but two thoughts come to mind. Consider the size and volume of GM, BMW and MB compared to Honda/Acura. Secondly, how much would you be willing to pay for an Accord based car even with AWD etc? I think we can see that the limit is mid-40s in any volume.
I thought the new direction was 'smart luxury'? If so an entry level car for the 20s crowd is exactly what they need. BUT the TSX isn't this car. I think Sub-TSX could fill this role.