Acura: TSX News
09-28-2011, 04:14 PM
#3161
Moderator
but why do some think that it needs to sell in high volume to be worth selling? It obviously works for caddy, bmw, merc etc... There is no reason acura couldnt put out a similar car to the v,m,amg to give those that want that from the brand they like 
Also acura seems to have gone so far up in median price they are targeting the higher income people , those that can and do want more and have the income to buy it. An entry level car for the 20s crowd just doesnt seem to fit their direction as of late.
Also acura seems to have gone so far up in median price they are targeting the higher income people , those that can and do want more and have the income to buy it. An entry level car for the 20s crowd just doesnt seem to fit their direction as of late.
09-28-2011, 05:51 PM
#3162
Team Owner
what is your point?
Mercedes and BMW were never about "value" like Acura. and TL SHAWD does not offer the same "value" anymore. It costs just as much as its competitors.
09-28-2011, 06:26 PM
#3163
Карты убийцы
My point is like a radio... the damn crap picks up 101.1 FM for all models. Crank the volume to the max, and like most of these cars with AWD, you can't tell a difference.
I not paying $thousands for subtle (i.e., I don't feel) differences.
Go to MBUSA.com or BMWUSA to see the pennies needed to feel the difference in HP.
09-28-2011, 06:36 PM
#3164
I'm Craig
iTrader: (2)
I tend to disagree with that. And if we really want to get into the "cost" word, the true cost to own an Acura in the long run will be dramatically less than its BMW/Merc/Audi correlatives.
09-28-2011, 06:49 PM
#3165
AZ Community Team
Actually yes the MB W201 (190E) and it's successor W202/3/4 (C-class) were marketed as the value entry class. The US commercials for the W202 use the word value in them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxbc7SjDC74
09-28-2011, 06:50 PM
#3166
AZ Community Team
There are a handful of soccer moms in my neighborhood who traded their X5/ML/Range Rover for a MDX for that reason.
09-29-2011, 07:24 AM
#3167
Not sure what you consider "competitors", but one might consider the Audi A4. Go equip the A4 with options to match the TL, and you are looking at 50K plus. I'm not so sure that the A6 isn't more of a size wise competitor to the TL anyway.
09-29-2011, 11:05 AM
#3168
Senior Moderator
I can't answer that definitively, but two thoughts come to mind. Consider the size and volume of GM, BMW and MB compared to Honda/Acura. Secondly, how much would you be willing to pay for an Accord based car even with AWD etc? I think we can see that the limit is mid-40s in any volume.
I thought the new direction was 'smart luxury'? If so an entry level car for the 20s crowd is exactly what they need. BUT the TSX isn't this car. I think Sub-TSX could fill this role.
I thought the new direction was 'smart luxury'? If so an entry level car for the 20s crowd is exactly what they need. BUT the TSX isn't this car. I think Sub-TSX could fill this role.
As for smart luxury direction, they need the products to show that value better than they are
They cant just throw in a civic based 20something k and expect it to make the rest of the lineup look like a value because if it. Acura needs to define where each car is segmented in better. All of their cars now are WAY to close in size and really have no separation. I think Better advertising would go a long way to help too
09-29-2011, 11:10 AM
#3169
Senior Moderator
09-29-2011, 01:40 PM
#3170
Well "IF" they offered a TL-SHAWD with a V8 or Turbo 6 producing 420+ hp (like say genesis R spec/IS-F) and maybe not CTS-V 556 but something more than the mere 305 and kept the price in the upper 40s MAYBE 50-53ish there would be a market. Its not going to sell like the civic but it was never intended to, but its the niche market car that some of the true honda/acura enthusiast are looking for. You dont have to be as big as GM and BMW to do it, especially when you are taking in a larger yearly profit then them.
But this is how it's been throughout their history. Except for NSX and S2000, all the cars that all AZs fans once bought and loved were all based on either the Accord chassis or the Civic chassis. So at the end of the day, H/A (it appears) can only sell the Accord for 'so much' and beyond that people start to say "if I'm paying XXX for a car, I might as well buy YYZZ." It wouldn't matter what they put under the hood so the engine is not the only answer. They would need an all new chassis to go with this and that changes the entire proposition from a (not too) simple engine swap into an all new undertaking.
As for smart luxury direction, they need the products to show that value better than they are They cant just throw in a civic based 20something k and expect it to make the rest of the lineup look like a value because if it. Acura needs to define where each car is segmented in better. All of their cars now are WAY to close in size and really have no separation.
They cant just throw in a civic based 20something k and expect it to make the rest of the lineup look like a value because if it. Acura needs to define where each car is segmented in better. All of their cars now are WAY to close in size and really have no separation.
09-29-2011, 02:32 PM
#3171
Burning Brakes
Well "IF" they offered a TL-SHAWD with a V8 or Turbo 6 producing 420+ hp (like say genesis R spec/IS-F) and maybe not CTS-V 556 but something more than the mere 305 and kept the price in the upper 40s MAYBE 50-53ish there would be a market. Its not going to sell like the civic but it was never intended to, but its the niche market car that some of the true honda/acura enthusiast are looking for. You dont have to be as big as GM and BMW to do it, especially when you are taking in a larger yearly profit then them.
Agreed.
09-29-2011, 03:49 PM
#3172
I'm Craig
iTrader: (2)
BUT many that buy these NEW 45k+ vehicles dont own them long term. Many are 2-3 year trade in for new, so long term ownership doesnt come into play till its used and 2nd owner. Also many manufacturers are throwing in free maint now so the only thing they have to pay while owning the car is their monthly payment and gas.
09-29-2011, 05:57 PM
#3173
The only car we've had over the years that was always over $45K is the RL, so just for kicks, I took a look at RL sales. In my career, I've sold 56 RLs. 27 were leased, the rest were cash or finance. This would make it roughly evenly split between the 36-48 month crowd and those that are keeping the car long term. Not trying to say that my sales are representative of ALL RL sales in all regions, but at least in my experience the actual facts are different than the (apparent) assumption.
09-29-2011, 06:00 PM
#3174
Moderator
The only car we've had over the years that was always over $45K is the RL, so just for kicks, I took a look at RL sales. In my career, I've sold 56 RLs. 27 were leased, the rest were cash or finance. This would make it roughly evenly split between the 36-48 month crowd and those that are keeping the car long term. Not trying to say that my sales are representative of ALL RL sales in all regions, but at least in my experience the actual facts are different than the (apparent) assumption.
09-29-2011, 06:19 PM
#3175
I'm Craig
iTrader: (2)
The only car we've had over the years that was always over $45K is the RL, so just for kicks, I took a look at RL sales. In my career, I've sold 56 RLs. 27 were leased, the rest were cash or finance. This would make it roughly evenly split between the 36-48 month crowd and those that are keeping the car long term. Not trying to say that my sales are representative of ALL RL sales in all regions, but at least in my experience the actual facts are different than the (apparent) assumption.
09-29-2011, 06:32 PM
#3176
Team Owner
MDX is probably the best "car" in the whole Honda/Acura lineup right now. everything else
oh and Fit is good too.
09-29-2011, 06:39 PM
#3177
Team Owner
Let's just say 2001-2008 TL (include CL) were "value" buys. 4G TL is not.
09-29-2011, 07:43 PM
#3178
But my gut feeling is that these two are leased more than purchased.
09-30-2011, 04:47 AM
#3179
6G TLX-S
Well "IF" they offered a TL-SHAWD with a V8 or Turbo 6 producing 420+ hp (like say genesis R spec/IS-F) and maybe not CTS-V 556 but something more than the mere 305 and kept the price in the upper 40s MAYBE 50-53ish there would be a market. Its not going to sell like the civic but it was never intended to, but its the niche market car that some of the true honda/acura enthusiast are looking for. You dont have to be as big as GM and BMW to do it, especially when you are taking in a larger yearly profit then them.
As for smart luxury direction, they need the products to show that value better than they are They cant just throw in a civic based 20something k and expect it to make the rest of the lineup look like a value because if it. Acura needs to define where each car is segmented in better. All of their cars now are WAY to close in size and really have no separation.
I think Better advertising would go a long way to help too
As for smart luxury direction, they need the products to show that value better than they are
They cant just throw in a civic based 20something k and expect it to make the rest of the lineup look like a value because if it. Acura needs to define where each car is segmented in better. All of their cars now are WAY to close in size and really have no separation. I think Better advertising would go a long way to help too
Acura had already lost the also-low-volume, non-money-making NSX supercar in sustaining the brand's first "Precision Craft Performance" and now "Advance" images. It is desperately in need of a super sedan or two in order to put the fire back into the Acura lineup and it's brand image.
Even though the RL sales is bad enough, Acura still relentlessly keeps it going. This serves no useful purpose, but only to tarnish the Acura brand name.
On the other hand, even if the hypothetical super sedan is losing money, at least it can build up the Acura image, and is purpose well served.
09-30-2011, 06:40 AM
#3180
AZ Community Team
Nope, all can afford it they just can't see the value of a vehicle that needs repairs on a regular basis. Add in the fact that driving to and from the dealership for repairs takes up time in their hectic lives. There's a lot of inconvience involved with unreliable vehicles. I watched that with a neighbor who is a widower and has three kids, used to own a A8 which he traded for a MDX also.
Life's to short to be spent waiting for unreliable vehicles to be repaired.
09-30-2011, 11:05 AM
#3181
You'll Never Walk Alone
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Nope, all can afford it they just can't see the value of a vehicle that needs repairs on a regular basis. Add in the fact that driving to and from the dealership for repairs takes up time in their hectic lives. There's a lot of inconvience involved with unreliable vehicles. I watched that with a neighbor who is a widower and has three kids, used to own a A8 which he traded for a MDX also.
Life's to short to be spent waiting for unreliable vehicles to be repaired.
Life's to short to be spent waiting for unreliable vehicles to be repaired.
09-30-2011, 11:35 AM
#3182
Team Owner
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For every n happy owners there's always one unhappy owner that cries louder than the n happy owners. I know more people that have had issues with Acuras than Audis and that's not just because more people own an Acura or Honda, it's because in the 8 years Honda and Acura's incident rates for recalls has been steadily increasing.
09-30-2011, 01:12 PM
#3183
Senior Moderator
Not everyone has the same experiences.
4 years of Odyssey ownership:
- New tranny
- New torque Convertor
- New Rear bushings
- New power Steering fluid reservoir
- New power steering fluid pump
- 2 visits for transmission software updates
- ABS Issue recall
2.5 years of VW Rabbit ownership:
- 4 oil changes
- (Edit) Fuel line recall
4 years of Odyssey ownership:
- New tranny
- New torque Convertor
- New Rear bushings
- New power Steering fluid reservoir
- New power steering fluid pump
- 2 visits for transmission software updates
- ABS Issue recall
2.5 years of VW Rabbit ownership:
- 4 oil changes
- (Edit) Fuel line recall
Last edited by dom; 09-30-2011 at 01:26 PM.
09-30-2011, 01:15 PM
#3184
Burning Brakes
I've had my car for almost 3 years and 21k miles now and I've only had to bring it in for scheduled maintenance.
09-30-2011, 02:23 PM
#3185
Senior Moderator
I think it is also important to keep in mind the years when the cars you're comparing were made. Ie comparing an old Car X to a newer Car Y. Reliability changes all the time with new products/upgraded products/technology etc. Even looking at larger sample data for reliability is filled with inherent issues that skew the results etc.
All I know is my last 2 Honda products(04 TSX, 07 Ody) have been the most unreliable vehicles I've ever owned.
09-30-2011, 06:10 PM
#3186
6G TLX-S
Over the years, Audi reliability has been greatly improved. But it's still no where close to the same level as the top Japanese makes such as Toyota and Honda.
My '97 A4 was absolutely poor in reliability, with which the engine warning light would turn on every time I took it out on a long trip. Even though extended warranty had taken care of it, but the frequent trips to the dealership were very tiring indeed. The extended warranty cost had pay for itself more than 2 times over for the period of keeping this car 7.5 years.
My '05 A6 is a lot better in reliability, but it still needed door lock module replacement, HID bulbs replacement, A/C air mixing valve replacement, rear cam seal replacement, and tranny replacement 2 times. Believe me, I would rather have a reliable car, than wanting to see my extended warranty starting to pay itself off.
09-30-2011, 10:55 PM
#3187
I'm Craig
iTrader: (2)
The fact that this has debated so much, and for so long, is the issue for VW/Audi/Germany's reputation. Regardless of what they're doing or are trying to do, it'll take years for them to earn a reputation better than Honda's for reliability. Likewise, even if Honda were to completely revamp their lineup, it would still take them years to establish a reputation of building exciting vehicles.
10-01-2011, 02:00 PM
#3188
10-01-2011, 05:31 PM
#3189
Midnight Marauder
The interesting thing is that when Audi had a 2 year warranty, the same was true. At 2 years, 1 month, it went to hell in a hand basket. So the optimist would say "see, they're getting better" while the conspiracy theorist would say it's all part of their money making scheme.
10-03-2011, 03:28 PM
#3194
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The fact that this has debated so much, and for so long, is the issue for VW/Audi/Germany's reputation. Regardless of what they're doing or are trying to do, it'll take years for them to earn a reputation better than Honda's for reliability. Likewise, even if Honda were to completely revamp their lineup, it would still take them years to establish a reputation of building exciting vehicles.
10-04-2011, 06:47 AM
#3195
10-04-2011, 06:53 AM
#3196
Based on my personal experience of owning several VW products(most unreliable vehicles I've ever owned), it would be very hard for me to ever even consider owning another. I might lease, but at this moment, VW products are still way too questionable for me to ever own.
10-04-2011, 11:02 AM
#3197
Senior Moderator
I would never paint an entire manufacturer with the same brush, and its pretty obvious Honda still makes very reliable cars. So yes I would consider another Honda product. But this Ody in particular has left a really bad taste in my mouth compared to my previous bullet proof Honda products.
I chalk up the TSX issues to being a first year build. 05 onwards have been very reliable IIRC. The Ody was in its 3rd year, so no excuses.
I chalk up the TSX issues to being a first year build. 05 onwards have been very reliable IIRC. The Ody was in its 3rd year, so no excuses.
10-04-2011, 11:33 PM
#3198
6G TLX-S
Simply go and take a peek inside the main 2G TL sub-forum, and try to realize how many threads there are dealing with 2G owners having problems with their shitty trannies.
03-05-2012, 09:45 AM
#3199
Acura TSX V6 in comparison test. 0-100mph and fuel economic is identical to 2013 BMW 328 sport. Despite bing 200lbs heavier, wider, taller with 5speed auto and on all season tires.
TSX is truly most aerodynamic car.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/.../bmw_328i.html
TSX is truly most aerodynamic car.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/.../bmw_328i.html
