oonowindoo

I thought the models in Canada are usually better equipped and have some unique stuff that US models just dont get...

00TL-P3.2

Just to nit-pic, unless your copy/paste is a bit off.

Your data says 234,637 BMW in 2019 (total year)
Also says 2,796 Honda in December 2019 (just 1 month?)

oonowindoo

Thanks, That is not nit-pic as we dont want him to say it is deceiving... it is.

Honda UK 2019 sales... Honda 43,913
BMW Group UK 2019 sales 234,637

Edward'TLS

Agree. In fact, the Acura brand has a very limited exposure worldwide, unlike Audi, BMW, MB, and Lexus. The Acura brand is only available in US, China, Canada, Mexico, and Kuwait. Elsewhere on earth, the same vehicle is sold under the (econo) Honda brand, and almost no one there knows what the heck an Acura is.

It is certainly missing out from the huge European markets, and doesn't do the Acura brand much good without the global brand name recognition.

oonowindoo

Why do they need Acura if they can sell Honda CR-V at the same price as a BMW X3

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

yea man and that's the case again for the TLX Type S. It gets a lot of the features (mentioned above) that won't be available in the US.

oonowindoo

i see... i think they are usually more expensive than the US models too right? so yah you get what you paid for...

Yumcha

It's more "sophisticated" for the demographic.

Cuz, you know...Amerikkkan...stupid. Look at who we elected.




And it's not nationcist if I'm being nationcist to my own kind.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Hmm the RDX in the US is $38k to $48k USD before destination.

The RDX in Canada is $44.5k to $56.5k CAD before destination. That's equivalent to $34k USD to $43k USD.

We are actually getting the better deal....PLUS more features than you guys...lol!

SSFTSX

selling less does not mean that Honda is losing. infact just look around used cars values there. Honda is holding far better end of lease deals.
BMW just have more variety like diesel and Electric/Plug In. Electric-Plugs in get upto $4K grant. so it reduce the net price. Honda E just introduced.

Edward'TLS

Good. Let's fold up the premium Acura brand, and let the econo Honda brand does all the work. The flagship Acura RLX sedan has already folded. What is next to go ?

biker

Production stopped about a month ago:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/m...production-us/

YEH

Oh, really? (And did you not learn anything when had told you previously that resale doesn't really impact automakers?)

Honda is slashing the # of dealerships in Australia and going to a distributorship/set price model as they have been struggling to turn a profit in that market.

They've already cut the Jazz and City from the lineup and likely will cut other modeks, basically just having a core lineup of the CR-V, HR-V and Civic.

Sales have already been on the decline and Honda forecasts that under the new system, that sales will be cut in half to under 20k.

The situation is not that different for Honda Europe.

In the UK (Honda's largest market with a 37% share), Honda plans on reducing the # of dealerships from 155 down to as low as 100 (which was already down from 174 in 2014).

With the smaller network, Honda is even contemplating deal-breaker sales, partnering with another brand/automaker.

https://www.am-online.com/news/latest-news/2019/06/19/honda-uk-plans-to-cut-up-to-55-sites-in-the-next-two-to-three-years

You really think LOW sales work? (Only in your deluded world.)

Low sales really worked out for the RLX, didn’t it? Lol

Honda is closing its factories in the UK and Turkey due to low sales.

SSFTSX

Australia small market. and export honda are expensive.
Honda has three independent R&D groups/Groups. China, Japan, US. they are not concerned by small markets.
Chinese made Volvos are shipped on trains to Europe. At some point Honda will start utlizing this approach for Europe market as electrification will accelerate in 2021. thats why Honda is investing massively in China.



within two years of this statement. Euro has risen by 12% (adding $2.5T to GDP) and Europe interest rates have gone down. it is matter of time they give similar ultimatums to rest of trade partners. which China can fullfill but South Korea cant.

YEH

You really think the engineering work that goes into developing new powertrains and platforms is done here and not in Japan? lol

Um, no, esp. as Honda doesn't have the equivalent of an S Class competitor.

And a major reason why Honda prices are higher over in Europe is because they don't have the economies of scale and with most models being imported (may be all with the closure of the Swindon plant) get hit with the 10% tariff.

YEH

Australia may be a smaller market, but it's a lucrative one (which is why the Germans are invested in it, and why Genesis is investing in it despite having to incur the cost of engineering and tooling for RHD).

And it's not so small for Toyota and H/K.


That 10% tariff is going away any time soon, and many prospective buyers refuse to purchase Chinese-built autos (much less Chinese brands).

And there's the real danger of being so heavily invested/dependant on China.

Under Xi, the PRC has been very aggressively when it comes to territorial claims.

What do you think will happen the next time the territorial dispute over an island with Japan fires back up again?

And with the PRC basically abrogating its agreement of a 2-system state when it comes to HK, the West will take a harder stance against China.

Once, again, you have gone off on a tangent and not directly addressed the issue at hand.

To deflect, mislead and change the topic has long been your MO, but to little avail.

SSFTSX

I cannot repeat in every post. Dont make uneducated statements.
NSX mostly developed in US except for hybrid system. so where is your statement to back that most R&D done in Japan?
NSX designed in US.

https://nsx.acura.com/explore/engineering
The heart of NSX was born in the heartland of America, where lead engineers and their teams lived and breathed NSX in Ohio. Design was developed at the Acura Design Studio in Los Angeles, collaborating with the Ohio teams. Testing and tuning took place in labs and at tracks across the country


Honda does not need S class competitor. It has other business lines it concentrate.

Swindon built Hondas not cheap either. Honda Civic Type R similar price as BMW 3 series M Sport. why would economy of scale matter on imported Honda CRV. ?which is global product. anywhere can be shipped with shipping charges. BMW X class SUVs are also imported into Europe.

SSFTSX

Toyota has different business concept than Honda. Honda deliberately not go into those business lines.

There is very long list of French , Swedish, Austrian and German brands signing part supplier including batteries from Chinese manufacturers.
This is German version of Fedex.

As i said i cannot educate you in every post.
EU, China and Japan has very different policies. small potatos like SK will be crushed and it wont even realize what happen to it.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Wow, this thread has seriously gone off the rails.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

its what happens when YEH and SSFTSX get together

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Haha one of them should make a thread just for themselves.

Yumcha

Sigh. Well, it's a discussion, I guess.


If what we allow in AZ is a benchmark, this is like, tame.

Abe_Froman

iTrader: (5)

LiQiCE

It is always interesting comparing MSRPs of vehicles - that is how car reviewers generally pick cars to compare, or in some cases will give the nod to one car over another because even though they prefer the more expensive one - the cheaper one has more value.

But - they never (perhaps because it is difficult) explore what people are actually paying for a vehicle. TrueCar comes closest to that I guess, but it is hard to tell how accurate it is. Like others have said though The M340xi has more headroom to discount off of MSRP I believe than Acura generally does. For my 2020 M340xi (which I custom ordered and took delivery in October 2019 btw, this was not a car sitting on the lot or a leftover 2020), it was a $68,070 MSRP including destination (I have most options checked, I think the only option I did not check was the Cooling & Tire Package but I did upgrade to the 19" Summer Tire package) but my price was $57,763 including destination after discounts and rebates but before tax, title, tags. That is greater than $10k off the MSRP for the first year of a redesigned car no less. Sure, resale value off MSRP may be really bad as a result - but if you know how to do your research you can get an M340xi a lot cheaper than MSRP.

I haven't done the comparison - but if you spec a M340xi down closer to standard options on the TLX Type S, I'll bet you can get the price (after discounts) below the expected ~$55K MSRP for the TLX-S. Not sure on average the discount off of MSRP for an Acura, but a quick look says 5% off gets you to Invoice prices on an RDX. So maybe $52,200 or so for Invoice price?

LiQiCE

I built a quick 2021 BMW M340i xDrive - if you don't care about the upgraded sound system, you can get by with a config for around $62,900. If you want the HK sound system, you have to add the Premium Package which includes the HUD and Heated Steering Wheel which the TLX-S doesn't have and results in an MSRP of $64,675.

MSRP discounts are averaging about 10% off before incentives which would bring you do $56,610 or $58,207. Because the 2021s are so new and they're trying to clear out the 2020 models, the incentives currently are all on the 2020 models - but the 2021 incentives normally start in the fall timeframe. If you already own a BMW, and we use the 2020 incentives (which are not much different than when I bought in Oct 2019) and you finance with BMW, there is an additional $4500 in incentives plus a $500 rebate through BMW CCA. So we're talking hypotheticals in a few months on the 2021's, but that would bring the price down to $51,610 or $53,207. It may take some extra negotiating to get yourself there - but that isn't too bad and not too far off the theoretical price of a TLX-S. Not everyone qualifies for all of those incentives, so add $1000 if you can qualify for the conquest incentive (most should be able to get that), and add $500 if you're not part of BMW CCA but can join 6 months before you take possession of the car add $159 to the price (the cost of a 3 year membership to BMW CCA).

Will be interesting to see pricing once the TLX-S comes out and how the prices people are paying compare to the price people are actually paying for competitors like the M340i xDrive.

fiatlux

When I specced out an M340xi to match that of the Type-S, it came out to $64K. Shave $10K off, and you're looking at $54K. Still more than the Type-S, but it's within spitting distance, and at this price range, in this segment of the market, I just can't see potential buyers splitting hairs over this small of a difference in price. The Type-S will either have to be substantially better than the M340xi (I have my doubts), or Acura will have to put some serious cash on the hood to incentive prospective buyers.

oonowindoo

They were supposed to stay in the Acura News thread for this... But you know SSFTSX will go to every thread to promote Honda/Acura, just like that guy who promotes Tesla in every thread yet he doesn't even own 1.

oonowindoo

But you also need to note that M340i Xi are running 12s stock in 1/4..... i would like to see Type-S do that.. if it can't... then it is just a less car for less $$... which is fine.

Knowing Acura, they will hold on to Type-S trim like their dear life.... = no discount for a long time... they did that with the TLX and it didnt even have turbo or Type S trim.

fiatlux

Uh...I did reference that the Type-S needs to be substantially better to make up for such a small difference in price. Are we not on the same wavelength?

oonowindoo

I dont think i disagreed with you.

But substantially better is kinda vague cuz it could be the interior, performance, equipment or any other part of the car.

I am sure some aspect of new Type-S will be better than the M340... but i was just saying specifically the performance aspect.

SamDoe1

Because Americans are stupid and will pay more for anything if you just stick a different badge on it. Honda has been doing it for years with the Accord and TLX.

LiQiCE

It will have ventilated seats, which I don't understand why BMW refuse to put it on their "lower end" models, especially since they don't hesitate to put other features in. Type S is better!

oonowindoo

Actually Accord is better....so you pay more for..... nevermind, that makes it worse

oonowindoo

How else are they going to charge for it in the 5 series if they put it on 3 series...

As the Econ brand and lower models from the luxury brands get better and more equipment... it is getting harder to differentiate themselves..
Remember the days that Navi used to be $2000 option... it is standard now

LiQiCE

Yeah I don't remember what I paid, but it was an expensive option to have Navigation in my 2003 Acura TL-S!

Compared to most manufacturers, BMW does a better job imho of trickling down features into the lower end models including engines. While some manufacturers wouldn't dream of putting their higher horsepower engines into their smallest compact cars, you can get the same (or very similar) B58 6 cylinder turbo in the 2 series, 3 series, 5 series and 7 series. Imagine if the ILX had a 6 cylinder option out of the TLX?

A lot of the other BMW features are found in the M340i xDrive now - things like Laser Lights with anti-dazzle (in every market but the USA, although this is reportedly being approved in October), full hand free driving at lower speeds (less than 40mph), automatic parking, reverse assistant, gesture control, "Hey BMW" Voice control, etc etc.

There are some differentiating things such as the availability of a V8 engine in their larger cars or higher end audio systems, better leather, etc. and I guess ventilated seats.

But I actually like that BMW for the most part doesn't shy away from putting new features into all of their cars and you can generally add options to any line of car, it isn't like I can't get a heated steering wheel on the M340i because it is the "sport model".

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Imo it's mainly supply and demand and what sales volume the automaker wanna achieve. For instance, if BMW want to sell 5000 3 series a month and that requires discounting by 20%, then they will do that. Likewise if Acura wanna sell 2000 tlx a month, and they only need to discount by 5% to do that, then they will just do that.

But ya BMW likely has a higher margin than Acura because of the higher msrp. BMW probably makes enough money from other buyers that only get 10% off to offset the customers that get 20% off. That's the beauty of having a strong brand image I guess. After all, the cost for Acura to build a tlx is unlikely to be much cheaper than for BMW to build a 3 series.

SamDoe1

Brand image...and the idiots who buy cars based on the advertised lease specials.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea in the RDX owners' FB group, it seems the deals do vary quite a bit depending on where you live. It's not uncommon for people to get $5k off the RDX. And there are people getting $9k off a RDX A-spec, which is pretty much 20% off the MSRP. Over time one can probably get a similar discount on a Type S.

LiQiCE

An interesting link on the 2021 TLX ... https://www.acurainfocenter.com/vehi...rview/2021-tlx

They have a comparison chart between the 2021 TLX (2.0T only) and their competitors - https://assets.acurainfocenter.com/w...RISON_v1_0.pdf

I can't seem to find it on this link anymore - but someone posted the weight of the car on vtec.net and said they got it from the above website - here is what they said:

Quote:

The base TLX (FWD) curb weight is 3709 lbs, the A-spec (SH-AWD) is 3990 lbs, and the Advance (SH-AWD) is 4028 lbs.

That is a fairly heavy car - I can't only imagine what the Type S with the V6 turbo will weigh.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

She's a big girl...