dom

Couldn't disagree more. Using the Accord platform for everything is a huge problem IMO as is the lack of any innovation in power trains or transmissions. It's only now they've begun to address those shortcomings although it still looks like the Accord will continue to be the basis of everything they do.

I agree that a V8 is no longer necessary but a RWD platform or a platform that allows more flexibility ala Audi is still very much necessary IMO.

Edward'TLS

You know why after all these years, Audi is still considered a notch down from BMW and MB, and it's total sales forever trail those of BMW and MB.

It's plain and simple. Audi is in the same boat as Acura, being handicapped by the FWD-only vehicle platforms. All 300+hp Audi's have to be with AWD, which is complex, adds cost, adds weight, robs engine power, and increases drag race times.

Audi has good styling, it has powerful engines and available V8 options, it has nicely layout interiors, it offers premium amenities, it has recognized upscale European status, it has almost everything that BMW and MB both have, except a RWD platform. If it had one, it would be a whole new world for the Audi brand in competing with BMW and MB.

However, a V8 will become less significant for Acura if it will have high-output V6's that generate V8-like outputs. A 350-400hp supercharged V6 with DI will immediately eliminate the need for any V8 engine option.

A 350hp top-trim TL and a 400hp $50K top-trim RL will attract much more fanfare with the individual models, and will also instantly put the spotlight back into the Acura brand.

Try naming any other SUCCESSFUL premium auto brand whose top-line engine that tops out at merely 305hp to be used in it's top-range sedan lines, and for years too ?

If Acura doesn't now recognize hp as an important factor in the premium sedan business, it won't have stuck in a whopping 370+hp hybrid-assisted EarthDream motor in the upcoming 2014 RLX premium sedan.

I too agree that Acura's recent problem is not drivetrains or platforms - it's styling and a sense of direction, which have to be clarified ASAP. But in the longer terms, the availability of high power V6's, simpler drivelines, and breakthrough products, as well as the Acura brand image, have to be addressed too in order for Acura to move upscale and for Acura to successfully sell $50+K premium sedans.

Hopefully the new range of high-output EarthDream V6's will eliminate the need for a V8 engine option. The simpler dual-motor rear drive system will erase the disadvantages associated with the clumsy mechanical AWD. The upcoming 370+hp, 7-DCT, SH-SH-AWD RLX will "wow" the auto world. And the upcoming NSX supercar will kick the Acura brand image further up several notches.

I just wish that there will be one day the Acura brand can receive the same respect and recognition as BMW and MB.

dom

A bit contradictory no? You spent most of your post talking about the need for more HP and Audi being second teir because it doesn't have RWD but Acura's problem wasn't its power trains or platforms?

Legend2TL

The Audi being below BMW and MB is only your opinion and not a stated fact.

You seem to be forever hung up on this RWD/V8 mentality, as iforyou has stated before it's about the product not just having RWD/V8. It's just silly to think that's those are the only things holding back Acura. If a 1G RL had RWD and a V8 it would not have made much difference IMO since it was a bland boring car.

Toi prove your argument also wrong on the drivetrain superiority with MB and BMW. Here's a fairly decent assertion, for many decades until only the last few years BMW used cheap poorer performance MacPhersen strut suspension systems for the front on all their vehicles. Even the M-Sport cars used it, but it's no where as good as a double wishbone/A arm suspension that's been used on most Acura's (not all, some have used MacPhersen - Integra 1G, RSX, MDX, ILX).

So from the start Acura which used this in the their marketing from 1986 always promoted double wishbone designs for their suspension. But not BMW, they refined their MP front suspension designs making them work despite their shortcomings in performance (camber control).

The reason behind all this is simple, it's the end product which is the sum of the components and the design which make a vehicle great or poor. So despite a poorer component that BMW used, it made up for it in other ways (bushings, strut tower stiffness).

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

This V8/RWD debate will probably never have a conclusion....Edward can bring into tons of data and examples, Legend2TL and I can do the same as well. For instance, Edward can say V8 and RWD are key to tier 1, as shown by MB, BMW, and Lexus. On other other hand, Infiniti started life with V8 and RWD and it was not successful at all. Same can be arguably said with Cadillac and Lincoln. I personally don't think Audi is below BMW or MB, but assuming it is, we can blame its quality/reliability issue in the past to be the roots of its image issue, not the lack of RWD.

biker

....and for a long time on the Audi 5000 unintended accelaration issue.

Legend2TL

True, and also they've had a reputation for decades for poor reliability. Some folks on AZ have had Audi's with some good reliability. I've heard a few, but have also witnessed many hanger queens as well.

A neighbor had a nightmare of a 2006 A8L, another neighbor recently got a newer generation 2012 A8L (moving up from a 535ix from a Jag S-type). I'm curious to see how well the new A8L holds up.

Legend2TL

+1, and we can also bring up the fact that the majority of Lexus sales are from FWD/AWD platforms (ES350, RX350) and not RWD platforms.

a never ending debate.

ttribe

Saw the ILX up close today...still "meh."

F23A4

I think that's pretty much off the radar of most under the age of 35. Honestly, Audi's "second fiddle" status (vs MB/BMW) probably has more to do with being perceived as a premium level VW......which cannot be said of MB and BMW which have no "underbrand". (For the record, I absolutely do not see Audi as being lesser than the other two brands....just different.)

Flipping back towards the topic at hand, the ILX is a nice little sedan but it won't do much for Acura's "luxury" image IMHO. The EL/CSX/ILX may work well for Canucks but buyers of this brand level stateside tend to have more discriminating tastes.

To wit, will having a V8/RWD powertrain in one or more of their offerings put Acura on par with its contemporaries? Will there be any notable sales numbers attributable to such offerings? I don't know. However, that is clearly something that ALL of its competitors seem to offer at the top of each lineup....and as the topper on several model lineups.

....and while I think the likes of the E350/535i look good and perform very well, it's the E550 and 550i that resonate with me more and tend to catch my eye.

But does Acura "need" a V8 RWD powertrain? No, not anymore. Would it hurt the brand to have it? Sure as HELL can't hurt!

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I fully expect the next reply will be something like "ES350 and RX350 are doing well because there are RWD V8 models within the brand, those fancy models drive the sales of other 'lesser' vehicles."

F23A4

I don't recall seeing replies as such that often if at all. That said, we also shouldnt be too critical of those here who wish to see a little more from Acura than Honda Accord V6 and Honda Civic variants.

Edward'TLS

The phenomenon that the Audi's annual sales figure is always lagging behind those of BMW and MB in North America, is a concrete FACT, doesn't it ? But why ? They're all European premium brands and with premium products, except the one difference in chassis offerings.

You misunderstood me. When I said drivetrain, I really mean FWD and RWD chassis. I meant the RWD chassis, as used by BMW and MB, was a simpler and cheaper mechanism than AWD to handle the typical 300+hp in premium sedans. Nothing to do with double-wishbone, MacPhersen strut, multi-link, or whatever suspension engineering design.

2WD (both FWD and RWD included) is cheap, simple, and efficient when given < ~300hp. But only RWD can handle > ~300hp while still maintaining good handling capability. So Audi and Acura have no such luck but to resort to the costly, complex, and power robbing AWD when given > ~300hp.

For FWD chassis, this is the possible model mix :
<300hp, FWD
<300hp, AWD
>300hp, AWD

But for RWD chassis, this is the possible model mix :
<300hp, RWD
<300hp, AWD
>300hp, RWD
>300hp, AWD

Now for BMW and MB, they have one more choice of model selection, namely the >300hp RWD, which is the fastest car and cost less than the AWD equivalent, and is especially popular in geographic locations where there are hardly any rain or snow.

This means more choice and more sales altogether.

Looking back 25 years ago, if the 1G Legend had had the V8 and RWD, and sold for much less than the $40K LS400, the Acura flagship sedan and the Acura brand name could now be as well recognized and as upscale as the Lexus luxury brand, or at least many Tiers higher than the current stagnant brand image.

You don't build Rome in a day. The V8 RWD LS400 also started off humbly 24 years ago. The premium brand image and model image are built up gradually over the decades to where it is now. There's no short cut to it.

Having V8 and RWD doesn't automatically guarantee that the auto brand will become a recognized luxury brand, but not having them will guarantee that the auto brand will never become one.

Edward'TLS

Acura's recent and bigger problems are the questionable exterior styling and the overlapping model families.

Acura's long term problems are insufficient hp output, >300hp must be AWD, and missing halo supercar. But at least Acura is addressing them with the new hybrid-assisted EarthDream propulsion, the dual-motor rear drive (AWD), and the new NSX.

Let's hope they will all see daylight this time around. Then it will be a major boost in brand image.


Audi reliability is typical of most top European auto makers, and is on par with BMW and MB. Only VW is ranked poor in reliability. The higher price tags on Audi vehicles, over VW, have gone into the much improved overall reliability.

If quality/reliability really plays a big part in overall premium image perception, then Toyota and Honda (with their exceptional quality/reliability) would have become more premium brands than BMW and MB.

biker

....except for one thing - that only worked in the US - it has done nothing for Lexus outside of NA.

Legend2TL

Worldwide sales Audi has passed MB, and is closing on BMW

http://www.autospies.com/news/Audi-D...MW-Next-68579/

"The VW unit sold 1.30 million cars in the year, compared with 1.38 million BMWs and 1.26 million at Mercedes-Benz."

Audi is only 80K units a year from passing BMW.

Suspension wise, MacPherson is inferior plain and simple.

You're still all hung up on this V8 and RWD aspect where I see Lexus and Audi providing a varied approach with AWD/FWD/RWD.

The bottom line is the overall product which includes performance/luxury/durability/quality/... it's alot more than just having in a V8 and RWD. Whether or not Acura would have been more successful with RWD/V8 is unknown.

The fact that MB and BMW both offer AWD in most of their platforms indicates to me they take the Audi threat pretty seriously as well.

Acura choose a different path than Lexus, which should surprise no one since that's their way of doing things.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I was mainly talking about Audi 5000 and the sudden acceleration issue: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/200...the-audi-5000/

It was discovered the car in the show was rigged. However, the damage to Audi was already done. Proof? Audi sales dropped by 80% in the next 5 years. People nowadays probably don't remember about that case, but I think it certainly slowed down Audi's growth. In fact, before that case, in 1984, Audi sales went up by 48%.

dom

Well, clearly I can't read.

Edward'TLS

And now for the US :

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...grab-lead.html

VTEC Racer

Last I checked, Audi doesn't have a single RWD car. Are you basing it's success solely on the availability of a V8?

Takeo Fukui was the most unorthodox CEO Honda has ever had. He ignited the development of a V8 and RWD but he also approved cars like the 4G TL, ZDX, RL MMC, RDX, Crosstour, etc... Not exactly the brightest moment in Honda's history. The global meltdown did lead to the V8 and RWD program being canceled, but it was also the first thing to be canceled. I don't know about you, but if V8 and RWD were so important for Acura's success, it wouldn't have been canceled in the first place, and development wouldn't have begun 20 years after the brand debuted.

Like I've already told you several times, Acura was established to challenge the European brands in an unorthodox way. Acura was never designed to compete head on with BMW and MB. Do you seriously think Acura walked on stage saying "We are here to compete with MB and BMW, now check out this FWD 4 cylinder car we are going to do it with". Sounds absurd to me. Unless you think FWD and 4 cylinders were good enough back then.

It's understandable that you want a better product than what Acura offers. A lot of people do. I did, so I put my money where my mouth is and moved on, YEARS ago. I don't recall Acura ever saying they would offer V8/RWD. You're going to have to show me this one.

Acura being the HP leader with the TL-S for a single year was an oddity. Just because they did it once, for one year, that doesn't mean they are going to do it all the time. That's the problem here, Acura did something once for a very short amount of time, and you expect them to ALWAYS do something it has almost never done. Type-R and RSX-S? Who were the competitors to those cars anyways? They seemed pretty much on their own as far as I remember.

It's one thing to expect the brand to be something it may have been in the past, but you're here again expecting Acura to be something it has NEVER been. It sounds as ridiculous as a Suzuki fan bitching about sales not being as high as Honda.

I still don't get the whole V6 being Acura's weakest link when the J37 is only surpassed by the VQ and Hyundai V6. I guess that means everyone else who is below Infiniti and Hyundai HP #'s must also be stagnating and weak?

I don't resist change, I encourage evolution. Customers who demand RWD and V8 don't demand it from Acura because they can easily get it from Lexus, BMW, MB, Infiniti, Cadillac, Jaguar, etc... When I wanted a V8 RWD car, I didn't hold my breath and wait for Acura. Why would I? Why would I sit around and wait for a company to offer me a product that I know they never will? That's like me sitting around and waiting for Subway to offer a burger when I know they never will, even if they are "capable" of it. Even if Acura did offer a RWD V8 car today, I probably wouldn't buy it. Why would I when there are other more established luxury brands that have already been doing it for decades? Not to mention that it probably wouldn't be much cheaper, if at all, than the other brands. Are you willing to pay the same price for a RWD V8 Acura as you would for an equivalent, more prestigious European brand? Not me. Not a lot of people.

It's time to move on from the Acura brand. Acura will always be Acura, an intercept brand meant to steal sales from the tier one luxury brands (MB, Audi, BMW). Anyone sitting around waiting for Acura to become the next BMW or Audi is just setting themselves up for disappointment. It's almost as if some people here purposely want to be disappointed so they sit around claiming to be waiting for something that's never coming. Believe it or not, many people actually like the Acura brand for what it has to offer, being a brand that's in between the mainstream brands and the tier one luxury brands. What is so wrong with being a middle brand? It's a HUGE market.

pttl

fanboys

VTEC Racer

Liberals

pttl

Edward'TLS

Like I said earlier :

"Umm, I just don't see why I have to explain and justify my auto purchase and my views to someone who keeps challenging my purchase decision and who refuses to even disclose his cars, let alone to justify his purchases."

So I now choose to IGNORE !

phile

VTEC Racer

I wasn't asking you to justify anything in my last post, but if that's the escape route you are choosing, then so be it.

phile

it looks a ton better with the accessories

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...9#post13847359

But for me to even consider this thing, the powerplant (auto) needs to change. 150hp for a car asking close to 30K is not acceptable with the right equipment.

dom

Not a huge fan of add on body kits but that does look pretty sharp. Wheels alone make for a nice upgrade. I don't think the cars looks are what will hold it back. If it came standard with the 2.4 I don't think we'd have much to complain about. Let's see what the sales figures look like in a few months.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

The car needs the accessories to look interesting. In stock form it is quite possibly the most boring car on the lot.

Moose Muscles

Add the fact that once you start adding the body kit + wheels your creeping up on entry price to a TL. To me that makes little sense.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

On closer inspection, I dont like the "body kit" that Acura has. There is no front lip, just two obviously tacked on pieces in each corner. Do not want.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...-vehicles.html

I don't know how this works....is the ILX selling that well, or are those just pre-orders? Does anyone know? I mean, looking at this chart, one would think ILX's are flying out of dealerships.

Moog-Type-S

Top 3 on that list are fantastic cars!!!!

SSFTSX

This is not correct comparision. CRV 1 month sales are almost equal to couple of years of Audi TT RS sales.

phile

It's nonsense. the ILX hasn't had a full month to sell, so of course it'll seem "quick" - it's initial novelty factor + few days left in the month. Remember even the 2nd gen RL sold well for at least 3 full months when brand new before it went downhill.

And I see it as #4 on that list....

Costco

Also interesting to note, it's the only Honda/Acura on that list. Even the butt ugly Veloster is on that list, along with two of its other siblings, with a Kia thrown in there for good measure. Another thing... the X6?!

We'll see how it does next month since the ILX has only been on sale since May 22, but only 168 cars sold nationwide

gonzo08452

I never understood all the hoopla surrounding the Veloster and Soul. I think I can count on 1 hand how many Velosters I've seen and very rarely do I see a Soul. I see more Cubes and Xb's than Souls. Not hating on them but its just my observation.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I can't stand the Veloster. Its horrid looking, and that third door is retarded. Not to mention that the driver side rear window doesnt roll down, yet the passenger rear does.

This is not total units sold. Its how long (measured in days) the vehicles sit on the lot. Thats from the time they roll off the truck, until they are driven off the lot by the new owner. Given the type of vehicle the TT-RS is, I wouldnt be surprised if they are preordered.

I will say that those numbers for the BRZ/FR-S are a bit skewed. Nearly all BRZs in the country were preorders (IIRC ~270 were sold in May). All FR-S' delivered last month (all 86 of them) were for the First 86 program. IOW, they were preordered as well.

biker

That chart really should have some context. New cars and low volume cars skew the results.

Hapa DC5

I agree. However, it never crossed my mind that a Kia Soul would outsell the F150 or Morgan's car outsell a Camry.

This is based plainly on how long they sit on the lot before being bought.