Edward'TLS

Having a V8/RWD sedan doesn't automatic promote an auto brand to become a Tier-1 brand. The VW Phaeton even had a W12 engine, but failed miserably to elevate the VW brand, simply because VW is what it is - an economy brand.

However, not having a V8/RWD sedan almost guarantees that the brand will never become a Tier-1 brand, no matter how much the brand messes around with the dealers, customers, and paperwork.

I agree that it's a combination of things, but with the products being the utmost important element of all.

JD23

Do you realize that Honda is a publicly owned corporation, which means its primary goal is to increase shareholder value, not to placate message board enthusiasts? It's great when the both goals can be achieved simultaneously, but most of the time that's not possible.

Fishy

Damn, kinda quiet here... you can definitely notice the lack of the usual suspects who are temporarily banned

Anyways, ya, the teggy luvin' enthusiasts should get the message that Honda/Acura isn't listening to them and just move on. The never ending bitching, whining, criticising, expressed feelings of abandonment, etc. is just annoying.

I'm sure Acura will travel its own path to "tier 1" and I just hope that their definition of "tier 1" doesn't include the downmarket moves by Audi/BMW/MB (A3,1 series, A/B class). I could picture a billboard caption by Audi with the A3: "Your move Acura", which Honda would reply with the Civic: "Checkmate".

Moog-Type-S

Lacking product for many years that competed head to head with the other lux makes in terms of type of vehicle, powerplant, drivetrain, options....

Not to mention the change to very confusing letter designations, and the RSX in the line-up didn't help either.


<---picks up bat...beats dead horse.

Colin

And yet you bought a CL, arguably the least competitive car in its segment.
The letters have been around for longer than names. People need to got over it. I'm not confused by the letters. Wait. Did you think you were getting a TL and ended up with a CL by mistake?

JD23

I'm wondering when you think Acura had a more competitive lineup than it does now. 1989? The past five years have probably been the most successful in Acura's history. Acura was never a Tier-1 manufacturer, yet many people seem to think that Acura is in a period of decadence after great success during the 1990s.

phile

Nope, people just long for the days when Acura could do more with less. yeah the Integra was a shit box that should've never been an Acura, but it was far more engaging than the RSX as a sporty coupe. And it certainly didn't look like a Civic.

But no one's looking back at an Integra and saying "wow look at when Acura was Tier-1". Tier-1 and Acura's glory days are two different arguments.

JD23

I think that sometimes nostalgia clouds one's memory. Acura's vehicles are more upscale and are more differentiated from Honda's than at any other time during the past 15 years. The 3G TL is a much better executed vehicle than anything Acura had in the 90s.

Please point out some specific vehicles that are indicative of Acura's so-called "glory days." I'll give you the NSX, but besides that, I'm having trouble thinking of anything.

Edward'TLS

I agree that the 3G TL is the best executed upscale Acura sedan ever, except for it's hideous power plenum styling.

Another car from Acura's "glory days" was the Integra Type-R with the 195 HP, 1.8L-I4, 8000rpm engine. It had the highest HP/Litre ratio for naturally aspirated 4-stroke auto engine at that period, together with track tuned suspension which made the car track ready right out of the showroom.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Do you mean 4G TL? I don't think the 3G has the power plenum styling.

The Integra Type R was one of the reasons why people associate Acura with boy racers. And making that car as an Acura wasn't so much of a problem back then because Acura was merely a higher performance Honda, or a more luxurious Honda. But now they want to compete more directly with the so called tier-1 brands, and a boy racer car no longer fits the brand.

It's like making the JDM Civic Type R as an Acura, I'm not sure if that's a good thing to do for pushing Acura to Tier-1. I mean, the CSX is already a bit of a stretch IMO.

JD23

No, I did mean the 3G TL. The 3G TL car was likely Acura's biggest success in both sales and critical acclaim. I think the 4G is a good effort as well, but I did not want to start another debate about its controversial styling.

I'm still wondering what cars are representative of the glory days that some on this board yearn for. If it's the Integra Type R, I will laugh. I remember some of my classmates in high school had modified Type Rs, complete with nitrous tanks in the trunk, that they used to race down the streets of Fort Lauderdale. The 2G TL was certainly a good car, but I don't see how anyone could argue it is better in any significant way than Acura's current sedans.

SpicyMikey

^^^ Depends on your perspective I suppose. I you were/are one of those guys you mentioned then those were the "glory" days. Obviously Acura is growing up and trying to move away from the cheapy tuner car image. That's not either good or bad I suppose. Just a different crowd. Acura's got some tough times ahead of it trying to slowly transition upstream. They will want to bring as many current customers with them but it's inevitable they will lose most. I suspect the TSX is next on the chopping block once they start filling in the lineup on the higher end. It's a FWD only rebadged Euro Accord. Can't have that if they want to go Tier 1. It's gotta go.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I was just referring to Edward's post where he was saying,

"I agree that the 3G TL is the best executed upscale Acura sedan ever, except for it's hideous power plenum styling. "

And I think he meant the 4G TL.

I agree that the 4G TL is a great car and the styling is growing on me.

I also totally agree with your second point regarding the Integra Type R. It's one awesome car and I would love to have one, heck I would love to have the new FD2 Civic Type R (lol, I just like Type R's). Like you, I just don't see how it fits Acura if the brand were to become Tier-1.

I also don't see how the 2G TL is any better than the Acura sedans when the 2G TL is pretty much a glorified Accord and doesn't really stand out in terms of styling.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

No doubt, the fact that they got rid of the RSX tells me they are quite serious about going after the Tier-1 status. It will just take a few more years before everything is ready.

Spearsoft

If Acura is serious about not only going T1, but going global, the TSX HAS TO GO. It's a fantastic car and I've toyed with the idea of getting one, but it just doesn't fit in Acura's plans, much like how the RSX was a painful, but necessary death.

SpicyMikey

Agree. The rebadged RL and TSX are one thing that really stands in their way of going global with this brand. They can't take it to Europe now because 40% of their lineup is already there under the Honda badge. The RL will no doubt go it's separate way with this next gen and will not just be a rebadged Honda Legend. The slot the TSX holds is important, so they will need to develop an Acura only model to fill it. Once that's done and also added a coupe/convertible variant off something (several years away, 2012?) they will probably be ready again to try rolling Acura out to Asia and Europe. Lots of unexpected things can happen between then and now, but I suspect the world economy will be in a growth cycle again and things will be in place to expand the brand

SSFTSX

Euro Accord is the only tier 1 car in Honda line up. Once you add up all the options to Euro Accord. It costs 32000 british pounds or more than 42000 euros for 4cylinder. Add SH-AWD/V6/HDD/AFS/Push button/18inch. Your looking at prices higher or approaching Honda legend/Acura RL.

In Germany it is called Accord Limosine.
http://www.honda.de/content/automobi...limousine.html

SpicyMikey

I went to the link. I can't read the German but thanks for posting. I can't see how the TSX in it's current state can be considered a Tier1 product by anyone. Europeans certainly have a different perspective on optimal vehicle size, but I think we are in line with everything else.

As far as it being called a "limousine". That's funny and has to simply be an example of a word not translating very well.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

^^ that's because SSFTSX drives a 09 TSX, that's why it's a Tier1 product....

SSFTSX

A product becomes Tier-1 when both consumer and the firm percieve it be tier one. EuroAccord compete in 4 cylinder segment with its German rivals and it is the most expensive 4 cylinder rival having normally aspirated engine.
TSX have decent sales in Year 2009 with its 4cylinder engine and price.

SpicyMikey

I wouldn't argue with that. Status (even value) is very much based on perception. But that brings us full circle and still doesn't change the conclusion. The attributes of the Euro Accord (Acura TSX) do not meet the Tier 1 perception here in America. Doesn't matter what the European buyer thinks. He's not buying here in America. Acura still must consider upscaling the product that currently is filled by the rebadged Euro Accord. Great car but not fitting of the Tier 1 status here in America. Replacing it with an Acura only vehicle has the added benefit of making it easier to take the brand to Europe and Asia.

Conclusion: replace the TSX and RL with an Acura only product as part of the the to-do list for taking Acura Tier 1

Belzebutt

You also have to consider that the brands we consider premium, like BMW, Audi and Mercedes, don't have quite the same stellar reputation in Europe.

SSFTSX

TSX is Tier 1 product by all standard of measure as consumers are willing to pay $30K for 4cylinder normal engine. Same way like consumer willing to pay $40K for A4 2.0T. It will be very hard for Lexus/MB/BMW to move 4 cylinder cars in $30K range.
On the other hand TL/RL is not Tier 1. No one is willing to pay $50K for RL. you can see from sales. TL is in deep discount.

TSX69

A quick glance @ Edmunds shows that the TL currently has no rebates & 2.9% financing.

C Class has 0.9% financing.

The 3 Series & G37 have a $1,000 rebate plus 0.9% financing.

A4 has a $1,500 rebate plus 0.9% financing.

CTS has a $1,500 rebate.

MKZ has a $3,500 or 0.0% financing.

So the TL does not look to be that deep into discounts compared to the competition.

SSFTSX

official incentives dont represent true transaction prices. Audi A4 Prestige 4cylinder cost $10k more than FWD TL Tech on average basis.
$3K disount on $47K car is smaller deal than $4K discount on $39K car. Remember comparing 4 cylinder to 6 cylinder.
Audi A4 has $3K dicount on $47K car.
TL has $4K discount on $39K car.
TSX has $2K discount on $33K car.


[quote]
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2009/acur....html?action=2
2009 Acura TL
4dr Sedan w/Tech Package (3.5L 6cyl 5A)
What Others
Are Paying

MSRP Invoice
National Base Price
A note about advertising fees $38,685 $35,556 $34,818
Regional Adjustment
for Zip Code Change - - -$474
Optional Equipment N/A N/A N/A
No optional equipment selected
Color Adjustment - - $0
Not Sure
Destination Charge $760 $760 $760
Total with Options $39,445 $36,316 $35,104

VTEC Racer

The A4 does not compete with the TL and TSX. The A4 competes directly with the MDX since they are both in the same price range and apparently size doesn't matter.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=SSFTSX;10861407]official incentives dont represent true transaction prices. Audi A4 Prestige 4cylinder cost $10k more than FWD TL Tech on average basis.
$3K disount on $47K car is smaller deal than $4K discount on $39K car. Remember comparing 4 cylinder to 6 cylinder.
Audi A4 has $3K dicount on $47K car.
TL has $4K discount on $39K car.
TSX has $2K discount on $33K car.


Not too sure what you are talking about, but this article will help you:
http://studio-5.financialcontent.com...ChannelID=3191


"Edmunds.com's monthly True Cost of IncentivesSM (TCISM) report takes into account all automakers' various U.S. incentives programs, including subvented interest rates and lease programs, as well as cash rebates to consumers and dealers. To ensure the greatest possible accuracy, Edmunds.com bases its calculations on sales volume, including the mix of vehicle makes and models for each month, as well as on the proportion of vehicles for which each type of incentive was used. "

True Cost of Incentives for the Top Seven Automakers
Automaker April 2009 March 2009 April 2008
Honda (Acura, Honda) $1,439* $1,334 $1,405
Hyundai (Hyundai, Kia) $3,591* $3,504 $2,156
Nissan (Infiniti, Nissan) $2,779* $2,234 $1,796
Toyota (Lexus, Scion, Toyota)$1,648 $1,565 $840
Industry Average $3,031 $3,165* $2,351

Honda/Acura is well below average, and as TSX69 stated, TL currently has no rebates & 2.9% financing. Period.

SSFTSX

[QUOTE=iforyou;10862976] Do you think discount on Honda Pilot/Ridgeline/MDX/RDX is the same as Honda Fit. It is the actual transaction price that matters and it takes much bigger discount to move TL off the floor than TSX/A4. And A4/TSX were never designed for US market alone. TL sales in Europe will be zero. The car is cleary not a tier 1 product. Tier-1 product doesnot mean it should have 8 to 12 cylinder. Products are Tier-1 in each category.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

You are trying to say that, a $3000 discount on a Honda Fit isn't really the same thing as a $3000 discount on a MDX. Is this what you are trying to get at. If so, I know what you mean. That's why I posted those numbers. And again, there's no rebates and 2.9% financing as mentioned by TSX69, over 3000 of them were sold last month. In other words, $0 rebate on TL. It doesn't matter if it's $0 rebate on a Fit or a TL, $0 is $0, it also means 0%. Not $1500 rebate like the A4 as noted by TSX69. In terms of percentage, $1500 isn't 0%.

So, Acura moved over 3000 TL's off the floor without rebates, according to TSX69, which got his number from Edmunds. Simple as that.

Yes, it's clear that the TL isn't a tier-1 product. I didn't say it is, did I? In fact, some say that Acura has lost its direction because of its 4G TL, that's probably because they think that's a Tier-1 product when in reality, it's not.

SSFTSX

TMV includes rebates & discounts as it reflects the Actual Market in a region. TL has much lower TMV than 4cylinder Audi. TSX has much lower disounted price.
And method of financing does not matter. there are credit unions that offer better finaning with longer terms loans and on top of that add it to your home loan. so you can deduct interest from taxes.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

The bottom line is, Acura offers $0 rebates for the TL and it was able to sell over 3000 copies. Audi also sold over 3000 copies of A4 but with $1500 rebates.

There are people who don't use credit unions (like my whole family) and I'm sure we are not alone. So those 0.9% financing for sure is going to help, it might not be a BIG differene, but you are kidding me and yourself if you think 0.9% is the same as 2.9% financing.

But of course, if you think what you said is correct and true, and it makes you feel better, go right ahead.

SSFTSX

So what is TMV than? Why one car on average more expensive than the other by $10K and not even with Six cylinder engine.
0.9 to 2.9% harld make differnce. May be few dollars a month. No one makes $40K decision for such small difference unless a car company gives 84months loans.

Moog-Type-S

...but it had a kick @ss navi unit in it :wink:

yes!

....and I almost bought an RDX....turns out it was an SUV and not a bunch of explosives.

HBaJ

Seriously man? Legend Type II Coupe?

1995 was prime for Acura-new Integra on the block, Legend, NSX..classic

Colin

LOl at least the explosives would have been useful!

JD23

This is exactly type of nostalgia I was referring to. Acura was in crisis mode in 1995 and in danger of failure.
http://www.businessweek.com/archives...444102.arc.htm

1995 was Acura's worst year up until that point. I don't see how anyone could argue with a straight face that Acura was better positioned in 1995 than it is currently.

SpicyMikey

Thanks for that article. Enjoyed the flashback

By the way, I agree with you. Our minds have a way of playing tricks on us. The Old Days always seem better than they were. Cars are no exception.

Colin

I started with Acura in early 1996. I remember those days well, and not through rose colored glasses. i seem to recall $5000 dealer cash to move out the old Legends that nobody wanted.

JD23

So I assume you're not of the opinion that the mid 90s were Acura's "glory days" and that the company has been in decline ever since?

Costco

15 years ago weren't Legends going for around $40,000? That might be a reason why they weren't moving. I don't know what pricing was for competitors, but that's pricey even by today's standards, inflation and all.

The thing is, most enthusiasts, myself included don't really care or remember the financial circumstances of car companies. We remember the cars. Legends were overpriced.... but they've stood the test of time, BHGs aside. And I still like Integras - if only they didn't get broken into all the time. Both were fun to drive and they readily came in manual... that's for sure.

Their current strategy is to have pricing more in-line with competitors. If they sell a boatload of cars, GOOD for them! But I could care less about how many cars they move or their current lineup.... great cars for sure though.