Acura: Development and Technology News
07-23-2009, 08:33 PM
#1881
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That's exactly the problem, most of those cars aren't available here. It doesn't matter if say, Subaru offers an STi that produces over 500bhp and outhandles the GT-R for the price of a CTR, if its available only in Japan then it won't nearly have the same recognition. And while the NSX was definitely improved over the years, they let the model itself get stagnant. In the early 90's when the NSX was first introduced, it was essentially a world beater since it outclassed the most affordable Ferrari at the time handling-wise, the 348 GTS. And back when the NSX was still in production, its logical that an NSX-R would easily be worth six figures or more in the US, considering the standard NSX was right around $90k. At that range, consumers who make that much would probably hard pressed to take an "Acura" over a brand with more prestige like Porsche, especially when on paper, price in consideration also even 911 Carrera S's were cheaper. People with that kind of income don't ultimately consider price/performance ratio quite as much as they do luxury and status.
Later on in the NSX's life there were many more new, more affordable cars (like a 911) that offered similar or better performance for less, or with more prestige. The value prospect of the NSX that made Ferrari dramatically step up its game in the 90's was all but gone. Though the NSX design is timeless, 98% of all people probably think it hadn't changed or changed very little over its lifespan, MMC aside. Hell, here we are on an car enthusiast forum and the guy you quoted said it changed relatively little throughout its life. Though the NSX had a number of significant changes over the year, it just wasn't enough.
And even still.... though the only Type-R I've driven is an ITR, many of them are not suitable daily drivers. It was drivable alright, but no radio? No A/C? No thanks. For anything besides a track-dedicated race car, I doubt the CTR would have a ride compliant enough and enough amenities and at the right price. The Mugen Si itself was already $30,000, a price which made many enthusiasts laugh and think,
Even though it does outperform a Nismo 350Z, most people shopping around in the $30,000 range even (imagine how sensitive the brand whores are when shopping for a $100k car) will think, why the hell would I buy a Civic over X car?
Later on in the NSX's life there were many more new, more affordable cars (like a 911) that offered similar or better performance for less, or with more prestige. The value prospect of the NSX that made Ferrari dramatically step up its game in the 90's was all but gone. Though the NSX design is timeless, 98% of all people probably think it hadn't changed or changed very little over its lifespan, MMC aside. Hell, here we are on an car enthusiast forum and the guy you quoted said it changed relatively little throughout its life. Though the NSX had a number of significant changes over the year, it just wasn't enough.
And even still.... though the only Type-R I've driven is an ITR, many of them are not suitable daily drivers. It was drivable alright, but no radio? No A/C? No thanks. For anything besides a track-dedicated race car, I doubt the CTR would have a ride compliant enough and enough amenities and at the right price. The Mugen Si itself was already $30,000, a price which made many enthusiasts laugh and think,
Even though it does outperform a Nismo 350Z, most people shopping around in the $30,000 range even (imagine how sensitive the brand whores are when shopping for a $100k car) will think, why the hell would I buy a Civic over X car?I certainly agree that Honda could have done more to the NSX to make it even better. I mean, giving it an extra 50-100hp and it will probably be a low 12's (may be even high 11's) car and lapping the Ring in under 7:50s. But I also think there are two sides to this argument. NSX stands for "New Sports Xperimental," its intention was to bridge the gap between Honda's success in F1 and the bread and butter Civic and Accord. I think Honda was successful in achieving that goal and the questions comes, is it worthwhile to keep on dumping money into that project. From an enthusiast's perspective, of course I'd like to see a better, faster NSX. But on one hand, I also have to understand the "reality."
Lol, this is why I love those Type R's, they are hardcore. They are basically street legal race cars. The CTR has a very stiff ride, but from what I've read/watched, people seem to be ok with it. I mean, you don't expect it to be silky smooth, but unless you are driving on some super bumpy roads, it's fine.
Anything with a Mugen badge is ridiculously expensive..period...lol..an example would be the mugen lip spoiler for the 2G TL...and it's like what, $500-1000? This might be irrelevant, but in Japan, the CTR is around $27k to $28k USD (2500k yen to 2700k yen).
07-24-2009, 05:55 AM
#1882
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^^ It could easily be true. The floodgates are opening now as this recession continues. Dealers are starting to run out of emergency cash to ride this out. Manufacturers are starting to step up and giving dealers cash incentives on sales. They are passing it to customers. I suspect it will grow as the fall approaches.
You can get a $40k TL for about $33k. Want an 09 MB E350? MB is offering a $10k dealer incentive until 7/31 !!!!! I'm not a big MB fan, but I'm probably going to go down to my MB dealer and look at them. Maybe trade in my 07 RL if I can get it for Invoice minus $10k
You can get a $40k TL for about $33k. Want an 09 MB E350? MB is offering a $10k dealer incentive until 7/31 !!!!! I'm not a big MB fan, but I'm probably going to go down to my MB dealer and look at them. Maybe trade in my 07 RL if I can get it for Invoice minus $10k
07-24-2009, 07:41 AM
#1883
Go Big Blue!
I did go over to my MB dealer yesterday after I posted that. Asked them if they wanted to do an Invoice minus $10k deal on an 09 E350. They eagerly said "yes". So we went on the lot and looked at them. They had a maxed out E350 with Premium I and II packages, along with the Sports Package. MSRP=$62k. My deal=$47k with a great MF of 0.00165. Monthly payment out the door was $$720 for a 3yr 10k lease. Believe it or not, I walked away. Even at that price it was still more expensive than my RL and it would be a step down. No AWD. No Backup camera. No pass thru from the trunk. Only 265hp. Material quality was about the same but the leather was far inferior to the RL giving the cabin a cheap feel. I honestly don't know how MB sells these cars to anyone at close to MSRP. Must just be the badge hypnosis because pound for pound it's way overpriced.
Sorry to go off topic.
Sorry to go off topic.
07-24-2009, 08:22 AM
#1885
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I did go over to my MB dealer yesterday after I posted that. Asked them if they wanted to do an Invoice minus $10k deal on an 09 E350. They eagerly said "yes". So we went on the lot and looked at them. They had a maxed out E350 with Premium I and II packages, along with the Sports Package. MSRP=$62k. My deal=$47k with a great MF of 0.00165. Monthly payment out the door was $$720 for a 3yr 10k lease. Believe it or not, I walked away. Even at that price it was still more expensive than my RL and it would be a step down. No AWD. No Backup camera. No pass thru from the trunk. Only 265hp. Material quality was about the same but the leather was far inferior to the RL giving the cabin a cheap feel. I honestly don't know how MB sells these cars to anyone at close to MSRP. Must just be the badge hypnosis because pound for pound it's way overpriced.
Sorry to go off topic.
Sorry to go off topic.
07-24-2009, 08:32 AM
#1886
Go Big Blue!
I've always wondered the same thing about the standard, non-AMG E series. Neither the performance nor the level or luxury would seem to justify the high prices. However, I bet Acura wishes it had the brand to cachet to charge $62k for a car that probably seems like it should cost $15k less.
07-24-2009, 08:52 AM
#1888
Go Big Blue!
Since that's not in my DNA, I'd probably be moving on from Acura if/when they become like a Mercedes. Maybe I'll be buying Hyundai's at that point
07-24-2009, 09:16 AM
#1889
Race Director
07-24-2009, 09:23 AM
#1890
Go Big Blue!
07-24-2009, 04:55 PM
#1891
lol, actually, the R32 GTR smoked the NSX back then..until the NA1 NSX-R came out. And wasn't the first NSX $60.6k or something like that? I mean I got that number from Car and Driver 1991.
I certainly agree that Honda could have done more to the NSX to make it even better. I mean, giving it an extra 50-100hp and it will probably be a low 12's (may be even high 11's) car and lapping the Ring in under 7:50s. But I also think there are two sides to this argument. NSX stands for "New Sports Xperimental," its intention was to bridge the gap between Honda's success in F1 and the bread and butter Civic and Accord. I think Honda was successful in achieving that goal and the questions comes, is it worthwhile to keep on dumping money into that project. From an enthusiast's perspective, of course I'd like to see a better, faster NSX. But on one hand, I also have to understand the "reality."
Lol, this is why I love those Type R's, they are hardcore. They are basically street legal race cars. The CTR has a very stiff ride, but from what I've read/watched, people seem to be ok with it. I mean, you don't expect it to be silky smooth, but unless you are driving on some super bumpy roads, it's fine.
Anything with a Mugen badge is ridiculously expensive..period...lol..an example would be the mugen lip spoiler for the 2G TL...and it's like what, $500-1000? This might be irrelevant, but in Japan, the CTR is around $27k to $28k USD (2500k yen to 2700k yen).
I certainly agree that Honda could have done more to the NSX to make it even better. I mean, giving it an extra 50-100hp and it will probably be a low 12's (may be even high 11's) car and lapping the Ring in under 7:50s. But I also think there are two sides to this argument. NSX stands for "New Sports Xperimental," its intention was to bridge the gap between Honda's success in F1 and the bread and butter Civic and Accord. I think Honda was successful in achieving that goal and the questions comes, is it worthwhile to keep on dumping money into that project. From an enthusiast's perspective, of course I'd like to see a better, faster NSX. But on one hand, I also have to understand the "reality."
Lol, this is why I love those Type R's, they are hardcore. They are basically street legal race cars. The CTR has a very stiff ride, but from what I've read/watched, people seem to be ok with it. I mean, you don't expect it to be silky smooth, but unless you are driving on some super bumpy roads, it's fine.
Anything with a Mugen badge is ridiculously expensive..period...lol..an example would be the mugen lip spoiler for the 2G TL...and it's like what, $500-1000? This might be irrelevant, but in Japan, the CTR is around $27k to $28k USD (2500k yen to 2700k yen).
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...-acura-nsx.htm
Sadly I too realized Honda's efforts in the NSX were in vain since at the end of the NSX's lifespan, there were just too many cars out there that had made leaps and bounds with regards to performance. I didn't care much about the value prospect anymore, I just thought it would be really cool if they dropped in a high-revving V8, kept it lightweight and made it mid-engine... that would have really linked Honda with its F1 roots. And it would mean you could essentially have a "poor man's" F430 in the way that the 1991 NSX was a "poor man's" 348 GTS. Even though the 348 was a V8, you could still get similar performance, for less, in the NSX.
And the yen-to-US conversion is never that straightforward, so who knows how much the CTR would cost over here. For example the GT-R MSRP is around 8,500,000 yen which translates to almost $90,000 US. Even though it has gone up, when it was first introduced the GT-R was right around $70k US.
07-24-2009, 05:18 PM
#1892
Pro
I did go over to my MB dealer yesterday after I posted that. Asked them if they wanted to do an Invoice minus $10k deal on an 09 E350. They eagerly said "yes". So we went on the lot and looked at them. They had a maxed out E350 with Premium I and II packages, along with the Sports Package. MSRP=$62k. My deal=$47k with a great MF of 0.00165. Monthly payment out the door was $$720 for a 3yr 10k lease. Believe it or not, I walked away. Even at that price it was still more expensive than my RL and it would be a step down. No AWD. No Backup camera. No pass thru from the trunk. Only 265hp. Material quality was about the same but the leather was far inferior to the RL giving the cabin a cheap feel. I honestly don't know how MB sells these cars to anyone at close to MSRP. Must just be the badge hypnosis because pound for pound it's way overpriced.
Sorry to go off topic.
Sorry to go off topic.
07-25-2009, 01:01 AM
#1893
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Yup, the first NSXs were relatively high-priced but they didn't reach the 6-figure plateau quite yet. To account for inflation over the course of 14 years and to factor in all the improvements they made over the years, the final price ballooned to $89,000 according to CGA and MSN.
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...-acura-nsx.htm
Sadly I too realized Honda's efforts in the NSX were in vain since at the end of the NSX's lifespan, there were just too many cars out there that had made leaps and bounds with regards to performance. I didn't care much about the value prospect anymore, I just thought it would be really cool if they dropped in a high-revving V8, kept it lightweight and made it mid-engine... that would have really linked Honda with its F1 roots. And it would mean you could essentially have a "poor man's" F430 in the way that the 1991 NSX was a "poor man's" 348 GTS. Even though the 348 was a V8, you could still get similar performance, for less, in the NSX.
And the yen-to-US conversion is never that straightforward, so who knows how much the CTR would cost over here. For example the GT-R MSRP is around 8,500,000 yen which translates to almost $90,000 US. Even though it has gone up, when it was first introduced the GT-R was right around $70k US.
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...-acura-nsx.htm
Sadly I too realized Honda's efforts in the NSX were in vain since at the end of the NSX's lifespan, there were just too many cars out there that had made leaps and bounds with regards to performance. I didn't care much about the value prospect anymore, I just thought it would be really cool if they dropped in a high-revving V8, kept it lightweight and made it mid-engine... that would have really linked Honda with its F1 roots. And it would mean you could essentially have a "poor man's" F430 in the way that the 1991 NSX was a "poor man's" 348 GTS. Even though the 348 was a V8, you could still get similar performance, for less, in the NSX.
And the yen-to-US conversion is never that straightforward, so who knows how much the CTR would cost over here. For example the GT-R MSRP is around 8,500,000 yen which translates to almost $90,000 US. Even though it has gone up, when it was first introduced the GT-R was right around $70k US.
I'm hoping to get a 1997+ NSX, turbo it, and do the NA2 Type R conversion.
So in other words, if they were to sell the CTR here, it would be like less than $25k! Damn...too bad that will never happen...
07-26-2009, 08:16 PM
#1894
6G TLX-S
Except that the NSX has a 15-year model cycle. Even recognized exotic auto makers Ferrari and Lambo would have extensively revised their models within that long period of time.
07-28-2009, 12:18 AM
#1895
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I already addressed that in my previous post,
"But I also think there are two sides to this argument. NSX stands for "New Sports Xperimental," its intention was to bridge the gap between Honda's success in F1 and the bread and butter Civic and Accord. I think Honda was successful in achieving that goal and the questions comes, is it worthwhile to keep on dumping money into that project. From an enthusiast's perspective, of course I'd like to see a better, faster NSX. But on one hand, I also have to understand the "reality."
"But I also think there are two sides to this argument. NSX stands for "New Sports Xperimental," its intention was to bridge the gap between Honda's success in F1 and the bread and butter Civic and Accord. I think Honda was successful in achieving that goal and the questions comes, is it worthwhile to keep on dumping money into that project. From an enthusiast's perspective, of course I'd like to see a better, faster NSX. But on one hand, I also have to understand the "reality."
07-29-2009, 08:53 AM
#1896
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Honda reported earnings for the fiscal first quarter today.
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=844475
Although earnings were unsurprisingly weak compared to last year, at least Honda is back to making a profit, after posting a loss in the previous quarter. Maybe Honda's frustratingly conservative approach is paying off during the downturn.
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=844475
Although earnings were unsurprisingly weak compared to last year, at least Honda is back to making a profit, after posting a loss in the previous quarter. Maybe Honda's frustratingly conservative approach is paying off during the downturn.
08-01-2009, 05:01 AM
#1898
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Honda/Acura is changing the way it makes cars due to the new laws being passed for more fuel efficent cars with the consumer base wanting more power. The new law passed requires the cars to average 35mpg according to EPA regulations. If Honda/Acura wants to continue its production of power with fuel efficent motors, the company has to go back to the drawing board. I wouldn't be surprised if they start using turbo's on they're performance lines, as far as transmissions (IMO) Honda/Acura makes the best drivetrains in the industry. When the market gets better it'll be a new ERA for Honda/Acura.
08-01-2009, 01:02 PM
#1900
Suzuka Master
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Even if it's only your "opinion", opinions can be wrong...like when Rashad Evans told Lyoto Machida, "You hit like a biii..." right before getting knocked the eff out in UFC 98.
08-01-2009, 09:10 PM
#1901
6G TLX-S
"as far as transmissions (IMO) Honda/Acura makes the best drivetrains in the industry."
right in your face faster than you can blink your eyes.Honda/Acura is only good at building engines, but not at building transmissions, especially V6 transmissions. Honda/Acura V6 transmissions are notorious for heavy parasitic-engine-power loss than most other top auto makers.
08-02-2009, 07:46 AM
#1903
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I did go over to my MB dealer yesterday after I posted that. Asked them if they wanted to do an Invoice minus $10k deal on an 09 E350. They eagerly said "yes". So we went on the lot and looked at them. They had a maxed out E350 with Premium I and II packages, along with the Sports Package. MSRP=$62k. My deal=$47k with a great MF of 0.00165. Monthly payment out the door was $$720 for a 3yr 10k lease. Believe it or not, I walked away. Even at that price it was still more expensive than my RL and it would be a step down. No AWD. No Backup camera. No pass thru from the trunk. Only 265hp. Material quality was about the same but the leather was far inferior to the RL giving the cabin a cheap feel. I honestly don't know how MB sells these cars to anyone at close to MSRP. Must just be the badge hypnosis because pound for pound it's way overpriced.
Sorry to go off topic.
Sorry to go off topic.
But I decided to do something I really like. Get a rwd convertable.
I'm looking at a 2002-2004 m3 convertable from the states.
While the g8 is a good deal, I'd rather get.
Also speaking of acura, my buddy who lives in seattle called me when his rsx was getting fixed. He told me that he was driving a demo 09 TL fully loaded (not the awd one) and he said they offered it to him for 22k off the lot.
Were getting ripped off in Canada! I think after I negotiated my lease I talked the guy down to 36k for an 08 base. I don't understand how (especially because of nafta and the agreement we made in the 70's) can prices differ this much.
08-02-2009, 07:49 AM
#1904
Tell this to all 2G Auto-V6 TL/CL and 6G Auto-V6 Accord owners, and you'll get these right in your face faster than you can blink your eyes.
Honda/Acura is only good at building engines, but not at building transmissions, especially V6 transmissions. Honda/Acura V6 transmissions are notorious for heavy parasitic-engine-power loss than most other top auto makers.
right in your face faster than you can blink your eyes.Honda/Acura is only good at building engines, but not at building transmissions, especially V6 transmissions. Honda/Acura V6 transmissions are notorious for heavy parasitic-engine-power loss than most other top auto makers.
most AT manufacturers can usually minimize their parasitic losses and/or adjust shift timing enough to compensate to where there isn't too much of a difference in performance (elapsed time-wise on the drag strip) from the AT and MT.as far as drivetrains, AFAIK Honda/Acura is the only manufacturer that makes its own automatic and manual transmissions. Their ATs, like its been mentioned are not reliable, clunky by design, and have more parasitic losses than other AT manufacturers, even in-house ATs. In many cases, like GM's automatic transmission for instance, the in-house 4AT will be faster in a straight line than the 6MT supplied from another manufacturer. Its even more noticeable with GM's 6AT.
08-02-2009, 07:50 AM
#1905
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yea, I think you're right. They had a $600k SLR McLaren in the lobby -- surrounded by velvet ropes no less!. I think people buy these non AMG sedans because they want some of the mojo from the SL's and SLR's to rub off on them. More power to them. I'm not one of them. When I can afford a McLaren I'll go buy a McLaren. When am in the market for a $50-60K sedan, MB just doesn't have the product to compete with the Japs. I can't quite say that about BMW but there almost in the same category with their non M class sedans. If you're just looking for a comfortable sophisticated daily rider sedan. Just buy an M or an RL or a G
The funny part is the BMW Guys will deny it to the death, I even had one argue with me that his 94 base 3 series had a nicer interior than my tl's.
08-02-2009, 04:21 PM
#1906
You'll Never Walk Alone
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most AT manufacturers can usually minimize their parasitic losses and/or adjust shift timing enough to compensate to where there isn't too much of a difference in performance (elapsed time-wise on the drag strip) from the AT and MT.as far as drivetrains, AFAIK Honda/Acura is the only manufacturer that makes its own automatic and manual transmissions. Their ATs, like its been mentioned are not reliable, clunky by design, and have more parasitic losses than other AT manufacturers, even in-house ATs. In many cases, like GM's automatic transmission for instance, the in-house 4AT will be faster in a straight line than the 6MT supplied from another manufacturer. Its even more noticeable with GM's 6AT.
When you put it on a dyno though, the difference isn't that much. Using the 04 TL as an example, from TOV, the 6MT puts down 222whp, and the 5AT puts down 212whp. But one less gear and wider/taller ratios would make it feel like there's a bigger difference.
As far as reliability goes, I think it was only the earlier 5AT. That issue is fixed from 2004 and on. I mean I won't be surprised to see a few tranny issues with the newer 5AT from time to time. Other than that, I think it's alright. Toyota has its own issues with the 6AT too.
Last edited by iforyou; 08-02-2009 at 04:25 PM.
08-17-2009, 10:00 AM
#1908
Safety Car
Fuel Economy
Apart from Lexus, Japanese luxury brands still pale in comparison to their German rivals in terms of the number of models they produce and the prices they can command. Overall image in the marketplace and status on the street have likewise proven difficult to develop. That's why Acura is making a hard push specifically to boost its image and achieve 'tier 1' luxury automaker status, but in its own unique way.
While many automakers use big powerful models as attention grabbers, Acura sees fuel economy as a way to differentiate itself in what is becoming a very competitive market.
"Hitting the 2016 CAFE requirements is going to be hard," said John Watts, senior manager of Acura product planning. "We are betting more in the fuel economy direction.”
For years automakers have been embroiled in an outright horsepower war, the culmination of which is easily Bugatti’s 1,001 horsepower Veyron supercar. However, lately, a balance of power and economy appears to be what is drawing the crowds and as we approach a future of higher fuel prices this trend is only set to continue.
Part of this move was also forced upon Acura due to the decision by parent company Honda to axe development of a new generation V-8 engine and rear-wheel-drive platform. Instead, we are likely to see Acura adopt hybrid technology, an option Watts said the company is studying.
08-17-2009, 10:08 AM
#1909
I'm the Firestarter
Wierd that they're doing that, and AWD across the line at the same time.
08-17-2009, 11:05 AM
#1911
AZ Community Team
08-17-2009, 11:09 AM
#1912
AZ Community Team
Last edited by Legend2TL; 08-17-2009 at 11:12 AM.
08-17-2009, 04:45 PM
#1914
The sizzle in the Steak
Fuel economy over horsepower?!?!?!?
Sounds FANTASTIC!!!!!!
Sounds FANTASTIC!!!!!!
08-17-2009, 04:48 PM
#1915
Go Big Blue!
08-17-2009, 06:26 PM
#1916
6G TLX-S
08-17-2009, 06:32 PM
#1917
6G TLX-S
I believe Honda has completely lost direction with the Acura product plan. It wants to go up-market, but on the other hand canceled just about all the necessary product programs which will enable the Acura brand to go up-market.
08-17-2009, 06:52 PM
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I have a bad feeling that Honda may use the new CAFE standards as an excuse to not innovate with Acura's drivetrains.
08-17-2009, 06:52 PM
#1919
Race Director
08-17-2009, 06:55 PM
#1920
Go Big Blue!
They have nothing clever in mind. Take a good look at the ZDX, and the drag-on with the RL.
I believe Honda has completely lost direction with the Acura product plan. It wants to go up-market, but on the other hand canceled just about all the necessary product programs which will enable the Acura brand to go up-market.
I believe Honda has completely lost direction with the Acura product plan. It wants to go up-market, but on the other hand canceled just about all the necessary product programs which will enable the Acura brand to go up-market.