JD23

Considering the average American household debt, I think something like the CSX is all we Americans can afford as well. We just pretend to be capable of affording more.

SpicyMikey

That's a great way to illustrate the brands "luxury" pull. I've always struggled with this term. Seems like the wrong word since most of the cars MB or BMW sells are C300's and 328's with no luxury features in them and vinyl seats. They offer the luxury of a Honda Civic in most cases.

If we measure a brands "luxury" based on the average car on the road we'd have to conclude Acura is far more luxury than BMW. However, if you measure it by looking for the sales on high end cars then we see a different picture. However, I still think the "average" car for a brand is part of the equation. As a result, whoring out overpriced shitboxes for $32k hurts the brand. A brand's image is boosted by "exclusivity". It's what worries me about Porsche's new direction (and this rumor from Acura). If Porsche follows BMW and MB and start selling cars below the Boxster, then every badge whore will start buying them and the brands image will suffer (as did BMW and MB in my opinion). If Acura starts selling cars in the $20k range again the image is destroyed even further.

SSFTSX

You always put wrong comparision. A6/A8 are basically 7 years old designs.
Try to sell 4 cylinder Benz/BMW on A4 price range or even A5? or try to sell small CUV at $50K price or supercar at above $100K.

there are markets in the world where sale increase is between 50 to 90%.

Legend2TL

Doesn't matter since even if they had twice their sales volume they've still not in MB and BMW league. The only problem Lexus has is the GS is poor selling.

Jaguar already had a supercar XJ220 and Ford with their GT neither makes them a luxury maker (although Jaguar in the past made some great luxury cars that had typical British reliability).

The fact that a A8 is almost 10X less sells than a S-class proves my point.

SSFTSX

And what about 7 years age difference?. S is even more updated with LEDs.
BMW/MB cant sell a a 4 cylinder car in $40K+ region. neither they can sell small CUV in $50K region. Audi era is just begining or V6/V8 starting next year.
Ford GT is never in league of R8 or R10.
rest of the world where most of luxury sales are happening of MB/BMW/Lexus dont agree with your assumption. Audi is clear winner.

Legend2TL

Actually the GT was in a higher performance league over the R8 and argueable even the R10. Motortrend turned a 11.2 sec 1/4 mile with a trap speed of 131MPH. Haven't see a R10 get near that yet.

Haven't seen the rest of the world's figures but with US market Audi is definitely a loser compared to MB/BMW/Lexus.

Colin

In the words of Dr. Sam Beckett "Oh Boy"

knavinusa

Yeah, because drag strip times are the only indicator of performance.

I don't doubt the GT can compare to the R8 V10 but it's certainly not a "league" above it. Even the V8 does fine against comparably priced sports cars (think 997 GT3).

Legend2TL

I had this link in my original posting but somehow I mistakenly deleted it. Here was the comparison article where Motortrend compared the Enzo, Carrera GT, GT over a variety of testing beyond 1/4 mile.

http://www.stangbangers.com/05_FordG...GT_Article.htm

JD23

At least Legend2TL provided numbers to support his point. SSFTSX stated that the Ford GT was never in the league of the R8, without any evidence whatsoever.

SSFTSX

how it is loser? unless you know the profit margins and incentives.
It has smaller offerings the BMW/MB. A4 is on 4 cylinder engine alone. S4 is now entering the market. new A4 cabrio is not here yet. Diesel is not here yet. neither in A4 nor in A6 unlike MB/BMW products which have diesel options in both SUV and Sedans. Full size SUV just got updated. Midsize SUV is not here yet. Q5 is ony 182inch long and Q7 is 200inch. There is space for another SUV off around 190inches.
There is no competiton to 1 series sedan and hatch backs in that price range dont sell anyway. It is just smaller offerings and despite that it has one of the best months in US. trend definitly going up. what will happen when they put twin turbo in R8V10?. Audis are the masters of turbo tech. Ford is not in that league. you always compare apple to oranges.
here it is competing against Ferrari 430. $300K car vs $150K. it loses only by two points. It is understandable it is 600lbs heavier than Ferrari with AWD losses. So it needs turbo engine.

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...6429147ac4.pdf

SSFTSX

those numbers are meaningless for straightline performance when one is forced induction engine and second is not. one has the design flavor the other is unwanted and has no scope on global scale. Even bankrupt Mitsubishi can do it with sufficiently large engine forced induction.

JD23

So the performance numbers for the S4 or A4 are also meaningless because they use forced induction engines?

Whether you like it or not, the Ford GT was a supercar. It's kind of sad that you can't appreciate it because it wasn't made by Audi.

dom

I agree with your post. But I'm not sure how your analysis of the CSX (which I agree with BTW) points to the potential future base Acura being anything other than a rebadged Civic...CSX.

Its not a bad car and its made in NA which means it won't be expensive. All I'm saying is American's shouldn't get too excited about this base 'Acura' as it will likely be what we've been getting up here for some time. Based on the next gen Civic of course.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

But my point is that, that statement doesn't seem to be an official statement....as in, I haven't seen Acura stating that they will bring the RSX back officially.

Legend2TL

I had a dream I woke up with my TL J32 cylinder head next to me in bed covered with motor oil

VTEC Racer

That's because it is not an official statement. Leave it up to the sensationalists to blow it up out of proportion though.

SSFTSX

Again wrong comparision. Ford engine is 5.4L super charged. Audi is 5.2L. Ford has bigger engine with forced induction. It would have been better comparision if it was 4.2L supercharged from ford just like 580bhp RS6.

Second A4/S4 is competing against twin turbo 335. and supercharged has much better reliability than putting two turbos.
Always compare smaller displacement less cylinder forced induction engine against larger capacity engines. thats the correct way.
So A4 2.0T is valid comparision to non turbo 3.0L I6 from BMW.

JD23

If a GT can outperform the R8 for approximately the same cost, why is a 0.2 liter difference in displacement even relevant? You also have to remember that the GT is several years older than the R8. If the GT were released today, I assume it would have better performance than it did back in 2004.

SSFTSX

you completely ignore the point that GT is forced induction engine with large capacity. twin turbo 5.2V10 will raise the price of R8.
there is already 600bhp version without turbo.

knavinusa

That's not his point. He's saying the R8 V10 costs about as much as a Ford GT but performs better. It has nothing to do with the size of the engine. We're talking about performance only. The reason the R8 costs so much has to do with things other than just performance. You gotta give credit where it's due - I like Audi too but the R8 isn't the fastest supercar. What the R8 does well is combine luxury and performance in one package. I'd take a R8 over a Ford GT myself, because the interior is obviously nicer.

In any case, I've seen reports of the R8 V10 getting into the 11s (which is reasonable) so it's not as if the GT is much faster.

Colin

LOL exactly. There has long been talk of a sub-NSX sports coupe. What if this and a new Civic based entry debuted within 6 months of eachother? One much higher than current offerings, and one lower? Does it move the brand up or down? Is the glass half empty or half full?

SSFTSX

Ford is non premium brand. it cannot charge same price as Audi for similar performance. you have Audi RS6 making 580bhp with lots of torque for turbo engine. similar same engine in Lambo produces 600bhp.
it is not lack of technical ability but not canablizing Lambo sales Audi makes world cars not specific to each market.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Wanna guess what's gonna happen if a rumor states that the sub-NSX coupe has been cancelled? lol.....

Colin

LOL, I want to see what happens when the rumor of the RSX is rumored to be cancelled.

Legend2TL

That's always a difficult compromise on entry vehicles. Getting the balance right on feature/function/performance/price is hard. Do it right and you can have a great sales leader that provide nice stair casing into the brand so

For every

944 (done really well) there was a 924, even worst would be the 914

CTS there was the Catera, even worst would be the Cimmaron.

ES350 there was the ES250

and so on


Sometimes the entry vehicles capture the market really well and other times it really dilutes the brand. I really liked my wife's Integra but I never considered it a luxury care even thought it was really well made. We wound up getting a Legend 1G but I wonder how many kids with Integra's and RSX's ever moved up to other Acura products?

One funny case is a S/W developer my wife works with. She's owned several Integra's and RSX's. When Acura announced they were discontinuing the RSX, she bought another one and gave her current RSX to her niece as a graduation present (it was ~3 years old) since she wanted to have a newer RSX since she intended to keep it a long time. She's single and never at all been interested in any other upscale Acura.


For every 914 there was a

Legend2TL

Forgot to add for every

MB C-class there was the 190E

SpicyMikey

I agree the positives must be weighed against the negatives when you start stretching out the price point for a brand, but I generally don't think it's a good idea. MB makes a $500k SLR and a $32k C300. I was in my MB dealership last month looking at the new E and they had a McLaren on the floor surrounded by velvet ropes. I'm sure that helps make the C buyers get a hard-on and sells more C300's. But what does it do for the person considering a $500k car? Is someone in that price range turned off by the lack of exclusivity of the brand? I think so. If I had $500k to spend I'd probably look elsewhere.

Also, I think a brand should have a theme. American makers realized that years ago and created separate badges for different product groupings and markets. I know American brands are nothing to look up to these days, but branding and marketing is not the reason they are hurting. They are right about that one. The European brands should get off their high horses and take a page from the Americans (and Japs). They'd sell more cars.

The more a brand tells a story, the more value and allure it has. Porsche told a story until recently. I think the venture into SUV's and sedans disjointed the theme and hurt them more than it helped. VW evidently agrees and wants to get that story right again. They also recently reported they want to take a page from Honda/Acura and start packaging options like them. It's about time.

cp3117

I found your statement and theory rather odd in determining how to define a luxury brand.

BMW's Chief Executive Helmut Panke back in 2005 admitted in an article in Buisness week that Audi is on par with them.

In Europe, Audi nearly matched BMW's sales last year with 559,428 vehicles to BMW's 579,632. Its most powerful versions of the A8, with 8- and 12-cylinder engines, outsell Mercedes and BMW models with comparable engines. "In the last 15 years, Audi has made an incredible advance. They did a super job," says BMW Chief Executive Helmut Panke. "They wanted to be fully accepted as a premium brand, and they made it."

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...1/b3924003.htm

With Audi currently outselling BMW and its flagship A8 outselling its BMW and MB rivals for several years now in other parts of the world, by using this sales theory then MB and BMW must not be luxury brands anymore.

The midsize and flagship models of Audi are on par with BMW and Mercedes and their low sales numbers in NA are mostly due to shortage of certain models (ie upcoming A7, etc) and most importantly Marketing.....These are things Winterkorn also mentioned in the article back in 2005.

Audi has had a tough time with marketing in NA and lets face it, fabricated articles like "60 Minutes" uninteneded acceleration episodes from back in the late 80's sure didnt help and almost made Audi leave the NA market.

SpicyMikey

What I took from his posting was that a brand can be considered Luxury (i.e. premium) if they can show to successfully sell product a "premium" price point. Not necessarily if the product is premium. In fact, I think that's a key sign of a premium brand; You can sell an inferior product at a higher price than your competition. That's proof your brand has "value" in itself and people will pay for it in itself. Within that there are degrees. Where BMW and Audi fall in relation to each other is more debatable.

Legend2TL

Haven't seen any numbers outside of US, but those numbers show my statement to be true interms of sales. I agree that Audi has done a superb design effort for their current range of products. They've captured a nice blend of luxury and performance.

IMO their tough times in NA sales are due more to their well known reputation as poor reliability and depenability in Consumer's Reports and other long term reliability reports. The 60 minutes segement was 23 years ago and IMO does not matter today.

Audi has gone through 4 major quality initiatives since the late 70's, maybe this time it will take hold. Nope, Audi is still second tier to MB/Lexus/BMW in the US luxury car market.

Legend2TL

I don't think branding is the problem for Europe automakers. The Maybach sales have been disappointing for Damlier Benz and it's old name heritage and prestige have not done much for it. Part of that is the economy, but it's sales have not met their targets according to Wall Street Journal even from the start. Many folks don't get the Maybach approach and just settle on a S550 or S600.

I can understand your remarks on the entry cars diluting the brand, but only up to a point. To me a C-class is a decent entry MB, a A-class is not. BMW make more profit from the 3-series than any other vehicle they sell. The sales volume and decent profit margin make for that. When the upper class models go up in price and the volumes go down the economies of scale work against you. So amortization of costs, vendor/supplier cost,... all go up making it harder to make a profit.

I think BMW has done a great job since the 530i came out in the mid 70's to replace the Barvaria, then the 320i replaced the 2002, the new 7 and 6 series, and the even the M1. They really solidified their simplistic model approach but in end alot of others have emulated their model range with a 3/5/7 from BMW C/E/S from MB and so forth.

cp3117

Actually those numbers in the article are from 2005. Audi is actually outselling BMW and MB this year in europe, so your statement still wouldnt be true.

I agree that Audi's poor reputation for reliability in the 90's hurt them along with rebuilding the brand after the "60 minutes" episode, but even after all of that they are still on par with Lexus and starting to overtake BMW and MB in the global market.

I respect your opinion if you think Audi is second tier to BMW/Lexus/MB (it is only an opinion after all and not fact) but unfortunately the rest of the Global and US automotive market disagrees.

Legend2TL

I'm talking US numbers so my statement is quite true. Audi's reputation is not only the 90's but up to mid-2000's for problems.

Yep, just my opinion but fortunately the US market sales of A6 and A8 agree with my opinion.

August 2009
Mid-Level
1. Mercedes-Benz E-Class - 4,671
2. BMW 5-Series - 3,536
3. Lincoln MKS - 1,370
4. Lexus GS - 669
5. Infiniti M - 618
6. Volvo S80 - 565
7. Audi A6- 561
8. Cadillac STS - 337
9. Acura RL - 149
10. Saab 9-5 - 52

Flagship
1. Mercedes-Benz S-Slass - 1,031
2. Lexus LS - 880
3. BMW 7-Series - 862
4. Audi A8 - 109

Edward'TLS

I too agree that if an auto brand can sell it's products at a "premium" price point, then that auto brand is considered to be a luxury brand.

For instance, the C-class (compact-size-class), the 3-series (compact-size-class), the A4 (compact-size-class), the ISxxx (compact-size-class), the TL (mid-size-class), the Genesis (full-size-class), are all selling at around the same price point.

Then MB, BMW, Audi, Lexus are considered to be luxury brands since they CAN sell smaller cars for the same price as bigger cars for Acura and Hyundai. In effect, buyers are paying more for less. In other words, these cars carry a "premium" price, and thus these auto brands are considered luxury brands.

On the other hand, Hyundai is only able to sell an even bigger car for the same price point. In effect, the car is cheap, and can only carry a "economy" price, and thus Hyundai is considered an economy brand.

Please note that the auto market is self adjusting, such that only luxury and exotic brands can sell premium-priced autos. Auto buyers won't pay premium price for lower-tier-branded products (such as VW Phaeton, Acura RL) nor buy junks from luxury brands (such as Jaguar X-type).

Moreover, it is destined to fail if a lower-tier brand tries to sell premium-priced cars and hopes that will bring up the brand status, without worked hard on the brand recognition first.

It's like a jungle out there, survival of the fittest. Luxury brands sell premium-priced autos, cheap brands sell cheap autos. Any violation will be rewarded by poor sales and axed models.

Using price point as guidelines, it is much easier to see which brands are luxury and which are not.

SSFTSX

Again your making this mistake. by comparing older A6/A8 with newer E/5/S/7 with alot more offerings. Audi is not yet offering that many in NA. by next year it is gone a change. and in all those you dont have TMV analysis. It can happen most of new A6 may be 3.0T while BMW/E are normal six cylinder. not even 535/550.

SSFTSX

Audi does not have tough time in US market. It has less offerings. where is midsize SUV that can compete with ML/X5?. S4 just entering market.
No diesel to compete with E/ML class?. Newer A4 cabrio hasnt landed yet. no new M3 competitor yet. no 1 series competitor. A6/A8 are too old.

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

Audi still lacks the prestige of BMW/Benz/Lexus but the PRODUCT is there. They have everything from the FWD A3 to a twin turbo V-10 R8. The next A8/S8 with a V-10 and V-12 is coming. They offer V-8s in their cars and SUVs. They now have supercharged V-6s, they have diesels, they have manuals, DSG and we all know their interiors are great.

Their sales are climbing too, about to pass Infiniti who is struggling again.

Audi isn't a premium brand when it comes to supercars, sorry. R8 sales are not exactly beating 911 turbo sales to the ground.

May I suggest doing some research on the Ford GT. THey sold out the entire production run, reviews were glorious. You might want to go further back and see how the original GT40 did and why its legendary.....

The R8 is superb in V-8 or V-10 form but don't think a "Ford" is a lesser car. Its more that on par with it.

Legend2TL

Wow this thread goes back awhile, funny comment about Lutz now GM is bankrupt. And I respect Lutz in certain leadership roles, he did a phenominal job at BMW in the early 70's.

IMO who Acura needs now is a exec like Bob "Captain Crunch" McCurry. He pasted away in 2006, but for a sales/markeing auto exec he really understood what most consumers wanted. He was highly instrumental in the execution of Lexus in the US. One of his greatest feats was getting Toyota Japan to redesign the 3G Camry. Someone with his determination, vision and insight would serve Acura well now.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tIU...0camry&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q5Q...201988&f=false

page 247, start of the 1988 Camry amusing story with a good ending

Legend2TL

, I agree Audi have great products their last step is to improve the reliabity and then I believe they will compete with the BMW/MB/Lexus crowd.

Also agree on the GT, it was a excellent effort by Ford. They really did a great job keeping the retro look with modern engineering on the GT. It's only negative was the rear crankshaft seal fix which was sub-standard for a car in that league. But that pales with the performance the GT achieved.