Edward'TLS

A RWD chassis is always best. It will easily take 300+hp, cheap to produce, simple, minimal power loss, and gas friendly. This is what MB and BMW are good in. RWD as standard, and available AWD as an option. This will sure attract a very wide range of buyers.

With the lack of RWD chassis, Audi fixes this shortfall on it's high power vehicles by generously pairing high power V8 with AWD drivetrain models. As a result, accelerating performance won't suffer. However, AWD is not alway welcome by everyone since it is heavy, mechanically complicated, power robbing, and waste gas.

Maybe this is why Audi is never as popular as MB and BMW because it doesn't have RWD chassis, thereby limiting the range of buyers who don't want the burden of AWD.

Like I said before, V8 and RWD doesn't automatically guarantee success. But without both, it is guarantee that the product brand will FAIL.

Moog-Type-S

Quote:

February 1984 - American Honda Motor Company confirms it is establishing a new luxury/performance division in the United States as an alternative to the European imports that traditionally dominate this market segment.

Perhaps Honda should try to stick with what they originally planned

CarbonGray Earl

I think lost in some of this is Honda's plan to make their cars lighter and more inexpensive. Don't remember the exact direction or what they mean but if Honda moves 'down', Acura moves to the spot Honda's premium models occupied (and them some)?

fsttyms1

So if thats the case you get really expensive hondas re-badged as acuras competing in what segment? They will be BMW pricing with nothing more than a fully loaded honda.

CL6

When I read this I was so glad I went to Mercedes. Honda makes fine cars but telling everyone you aren't going to compete with the best out there just says you don't want to be the best.

SSFTSX

Automobile company is doomed it if it is not expanding its markets and product lineup. Cashflow & Profit margin will not reveal that. Acura has practically zero chance becoming global brand. R&D money simply not there. Most Honda profits are in third world cheap products.

It costs alot of money years before the launch Tier-1 products.

knavinusa

I don't fully agree. While it's true that Audi isn't as popular as MB and BMW, it more likely has to do with the reliability issues they had in the 90's. A lot of luxury car buyers look to Audi first when they need a car that can handle the snow; AWD BMWs or Mercs are much less common. As for RWD being more popular, that's likely due to driving dynamics rather than fuel economy. I doubt your average MB or BMW owner is going to lose sleep over a couple MPG, and mileage can be improved with an efficient engine design anyway.

phishfood

Maybe Acura could make money selling a high end paper bag with holes cut out for eyes to look through.

This way Acura drivers could hide their faces while driving their Acuras (kind of like sports fans do when their team is crappy) but somewhat in style.

Kind of a "tier-1" paper bag. Not quite a luxury paper bag, but better than your standard grocery store paper bag.

CarbonGray Earl

That's what Im sayin. I think that's what Ito wants Acura to be.

If you ask me, its somewhere between Audi and Volkswagen, not Audi and BMW.

phee

iTrader: (5)

about as good as your grammar?

Edward'TLS

It was the "unintended acceleration" fiasco for the Audi 5000, that almost brought the Audi of North America down to it's knees during the early 90's. The turning point was when Audi started releasing the brand new A4 series in 1996, then followed up with the A6/A8 series sedans. North American sales have been gradually increasing ever since.

It was during the last 5 to 6 years that the Audi reliability has been greatly improved, and is able to match those from BMW and MB. It is VW reliability that continue to stay poor. After all, a lot of Audi's premium pricing goes into better Audi reliability when compared to VW. However, even the best European reliability is still way behind those from the top Japanese auto makers.

Audi sales has been booming, with the continuous addition of new model lines, right up to this damn recession.

Back in the old days, a lot of luxury car buyers, who needed to drive in the snow, looked first to Audi Quattro vehicles simply because there were no alternatives. But recently, the Audi edge is lost, when BMW and MB are offering optional AWD in almost all of their model lines.

As you are around in Richmond. You can't miss out the ever increasing sightings of 3**i-Xdrive, C300-4matic, and C350-4matic sedans looming around all over Richmond these days.

RWD vehicles are popular than AWD vehicles because RWD vehicles are cheaper, more efficient hp transfer, lighter, and thus faster than equivalent AWD vehicles given the same hp. In addition, most don't need AWD traction, especially for those living in the ever-sunny belts.

The average MB or BMW owners may not be going to lose sleep over a couple MPG, but they can definitely feel the sluggishness and clumsyness that come standard with their AWD vehicles compare to a simple 2-wheel-drive vehicle on dry roads.

I know because I've a TL-S and an A6-3.2L-Quattro. The Quattro A6 feels like a dog compared to the TL-S in the dry. It sure won't win any drag races. But in the wet and on snow, the Quattro A6 wins hands down.

knavinusa

Oh, didn't realize you're from Richmond too. No kidding about those 3-series xi's and C-class 4matics, but I still see more RWD than AWD BMWs and Mercs.

While I agree the older generation quattro wasn't particularly sporty, the VR6 on the A6 isn't exactly designed for sporting either. The J35 is definitely more rev-happy and it produces more power as well. I believe the A6 is heavier too, so that contributes to the sluggish feeling. I drove the new A4 and it feels great, although I preferred the manual over the slushbox.

I think Audi could benefit from an RWD-based quattro platform, similar to the one they use on the R8 (at least on their more expensive cars), but that's unlikely to happen.

Legend2TL

, the continous Acura is doomed sky is falling theme is far overstated. I think Acura has lost it's strategic vision, all Ito did is state the obvious. Cadillac was in far worst shape in the mid-90's and with the incredible teamwork of senior-mid level management got Cadillac to move in a new direction.

IMO Acura's current large scale problem is styling, marketing and product positioning. I thought the RWD/V8 was going to address the product positioning problem. If they want to achieve their goals I would get restart or continue the RWD platform program. I was never keen on the AWD approach, it may work for Audi but adds un-necessary weight and cost fuel economy and power. The marketing is also unclear, Acura should try to get a consistent theme and stick with it. Not changing ad agency's every few years. Consistency in North American advertising is one of BMW hallmarks which helped them from the 70's to now. The exterior styling is the one area that still shocks me how bad Acura got to from where it was only a few years ago. The 3G TL styling was complemented by it seems most auto press, to the 4G TL which is considered interesting by the same press. Perhaps a whole new design staff/department to solve that?

Also one should look at what is working well, Acura still has the knowledge and skill-sets of Honda's engineering. Their engine leadership has fallen in mid-ranks recently but in general they were building superior powerplants to comparable German engines for over a decade. Recent J-series improvements has turned into a bore and stroke exercise. According to latest Consumers Reports, Acura reliablity is apparently now back in traditional Honda/Acura good status after the 5AT problems have been solved at the cost of their reputation being remembered still. Still compared to the German's (especially Audi) Acura and Lexus both stand a level above in reliabilty/dependability which is important to many people in the luxury market.

So to me it's not the end of Acura, just lost the CEO admits it, the dealerships are concerned, and wait a few years and see what happens/progresses.

dom

Do you really believe American execs like Colliver were ever calling the shots, at any point? In my opinion they were and still are mouth pieces for the Japanese who have zero say over the important things like chassis and power trains. They can only work with what they're given which is a Honda Accord. Whatever he said about Bentley came from the higher ups in Japan.

Nothing has changed.

SpicyMikey

Yea, I'm thinking those over-the-top ideas and comments were born from the American side. Due to weak leadership at HMC, I think they were influenced to go along with it but didn't conceive the idea.

It never seemed to fit right from the moment I heard it. This Ito statment seems to fit HMC's MO more comfortably. I totally admit I'm guessing, but it's an educated guess based on what I know about HMC's past, and the Japanese culture and mindset in general.

dom

We're all guessing. I'm of the opinion that the Japanese are and always have been firmly in control...of everything.

fsttyms1

If thats the case they are really doomed. Who wants to pay BMW prices for a honda?

CarbonGray Earl

^^ya I dunno what they have planned. I don't know how they'll price it though.

CL6

About 4 years ago I sat in a meeting with some Japanese Honda guys and some Americans from the A-SPEC team. Basically, they said they have no control over everything as marching orders come from Japan. These guys were really frustrated by that.

SpicyMikey

Well whoever had that idea of trying to compete with Bentley should be fired. I always thought that was some AHMC exec going rogue. But if that was a real idea from HMC, then I'm disappointed in them. Someone was drinking to much saki the day they came up with that notion. I owe Dick an apology I guess.

Edward'TLS

Once again, 2WD/RWD sedans are always popular due to cheaper cost, lighter in weight, faster in acceleration, easy on gas, and with less to go wrong especially with an European reliability.

AWD BMW's and AWD MB's only account for a small percentage of their total vehicle sales. So I suspect if Audi could have a RWD chassis as standard trim capable of a even lower base price tag, Audi sales would rival those of BMW and MB.



Audi A4 and A6 don't use VR6, only A3, TT, and VW vehicles use VR6.

However, my point isn't on which engine (Acura or Audi) nor which AWD system is sportier. My point is that given with approx. the same output hp, a 2WD sedan will always outrun a AWD sedan in the dry.

BMW and MB vehicles start off with a simple, lightweight RWD chassis as standard trim. But when you start adding the AWD option to the package, the resulting AWD car will

(1) cost more
(2) weight more
(3) less usable (wheel) hp due to AWD parasitic gearing loss
(4) accelerate slower
(5) feel sluggish
(6) waste more gas.

However, performance-wise, the AWD car buyer can go for the high power V8 option to better the RWD car. But then the RWD car buyer can too go for the high power V8 option, in a way putting the argument back to square one, which once again showing that the lighter high-power V8 RWD car is better than the heavier high-power V8 AWD car in the dry.

This is what makes 2WD/RWD vehicles so attractive to those buyers who don't need AWD traction at all.

MIKEYDRED

I do not get it all this speculating will drive people crazy no where did they ever say they were not going for Tier 1 they said the path will be different. All manufactures will have to rethink if they want to survive YTD ACura is still the #4 selling luxury nameplate in America all this article means to me is they are not going for LS type vechicles and they will find news ways to prodice power even if not class leading while still providing good fuel economy. No one knows who knows next week sthey may have a different direction.

Edward'TLS

Acura is not a luxury nameplate.
Acura does not carry the same class prestige as BMW, MB, Audi, Lexus.
Acura is a wanna-be-luxury nameplate.

vybzkartel

^^What you saying; they're the #1 selling wanna-be-luxury nameplate?

Fishy

It could be that Canada is different, but there's plenty of folks here who consider my 3G TL-S a luxury car. Friends, co-workers, neighbors who have Audi's, BMW, Lexus, MB, etc all like and admire Acura.

Besides, with those silly A3's, B/C-Class, Mini's, Smart Cars, etc. diluting the Audi/BMW/MB brands, there's really not that much difference in "Tiers".

Edward'TLS

There is no different in Canada as in the US.

Honda Motor Co. CEO Takanobu Ito, a couple days ago, just announced the revised product plan for the Acura brand. All previous efforts to elevate the Acura brand to become the so-called "Tier-1" luxury brand (which includes BMW, MB, etc.) have failed. Honda decides that Acura will be no longer pursuing this unachievable goal.

I like my TL-S and I admire my TL-S. I wish that would also make the Acura brand to become a true luxury brand like BMW and MB, too.

spurfan15

Honda has become so unreliable. Every time I get excited about some new future product that is basically a "sure thing," Honda does a complete 180 and axes it. The Diesel is a perfect example... that whole ordeal really fried me. I've just learned to not get my hopes up. Fukui was the CEO of failure to deliver on promises. I guess this is a step in a different direction though -- this new guy seems to be stating a sad truth: Honda has made the decision to be a boring car company. Honda has always been known primarily for their highly reliable and fairly efficient cars, but they liked throwing in some spice to keep things interesting, keep automotive press positive, and make hardcore fans happy: Integra, RSX, Civic SI, S2000, NSX, etc. Looks like those days are fading away.

CL6

Ha.

knavinusa

You're right. I'm used to seeing VR6s and completely forgot it's only offered in transverse-engined cars.

Anyway, I agree that AWD does sap power. However, with many of these systems now varying power from the front and back a lot of them can perform close to a true RWD car with the benefits of AWD when it's needed. It all boils down to whether you prefer a "pure" RWD sports car.

I hope it doesn't seem like I'm trying to start an argument. I'm just pointing out that AWD is no longer a primitive system.

Belzebutt

I agree, I think depending on the vehicle, Acura can be considered a luxury brand. The TSX is as much of a luxury car as an A3, and the TL is more of a luxury car than a base A4 or a 323i/325i IMO, and if optioned right, it's equal to a 328i as far luxury status is concerned.

SpicyMikey

Aren't most really using "luxury brand" as a synonym for "prestige/image brand"? If that's the case they they are using the word correctly. Acura does not have the image of BMW, MB, Lexus. Personally, at 48, I don't give a sh#t about image and now want to be comfortable and pampered by features that make my driving easier, safer, and more luxurious -- at the best price. That's really why I tend to buy Acura's more times then not. Acura makes cars that are every bit as luxurious (if not more) then MB, and BMW. My RL blows away a 535 in terms of luxury. The kicker is that it's also 20% cheaper!!

If I was in the market today for a midsized sedan or SUV, I can't imagine buying something other than a TL, RL, or MDX. If I were in the market for a 2 seat roadster, my first choice would be a BMW Z4. A full size sedan; Lexus LS. All those choices are based on my view of best bang for the buck in that category.

mrdeeno

Depending on the vehicle, Hyundai's a luxury brand too then.

Belzebutt

Yeah, if you're looking at ONE vehicle. In Acura's case most of their vehicles easily make the luxury cut.

Fishy

I give credit to Hyundai for the Genesis as it is an up market move, and definitely there's more "true" luxury and image with the Genesis than a MB B-Class. Hyundai is redefining what "luxury" means, and it'll make things very hard on the established luxury brands to offer something better in truth, and not just in image.

And people make jokes of the Canada only CSX (a "luxury" Civic), but the brands these same people think of as luxury brands are now offering the same or in some ways lesser cars. If I had to, I'd take the CSX...Type S please over the B-Class any day.

mrdeeno

Fixed.

Edward'TLS

In general, a luxury brand is one that can sell it's products at a premium price. For example, Rolex is a luxury brand and people are willing to buy even a plain (non diamond) Rolex watch at a price many folds that of a Seiko watch.

Now back to the auto world.

Sizewise, the TSX, the A4, the 3-series, and the C-class are all within the same size class; the TL, the A6, the 5-series, and the E-class roughly the same size class.

But pricewise, the TSX, the A3, the 1-series, and the B-class are all selling at around similar prices; the TL, the A4, the 3-series, the the C-class are at around similar prices.

Thus, Audi, BWM, and MB are all selling their products at a premium price, while, in comparison, Acura is selling the equivalent products at a bargain price.

Until the time when the TSX is carrying the same price tag as the A4, the 3-series, and the C-class, and when the TL the same price tag as the A6, the 5-series, and the E-class, then the Acura brand will be considered to be a luxury brand as for BMW and MB.

Edward'TLS

Power robbing aside. Please don't forget the extra weight that the AWD hardware adds to the car. No matter how intelligent the AWD system shuffles the front-to-rear and even side-to-side power distributions, there is nothing that can offset this extra dead weight. Weight is a major killer to performance.

SpicyMikey

Using that definition then Acura is definitely not a Luxury brand. But they make luxurious products that cannot command premium prices because there's no intangible "image value" to add to the cost. Acura: Stealth Luxury

If your not looking for super handling vehicles, they are great cars that are every bit as pampering as German Luxury brands for a significant discount. Only problem is you really need to have great confident in yourself to buy an Acura (or Infiniti for that matter) because you get no image boost. I don't know anyone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder that owns an Acura

fsttyms1

After my test drive in the Genesis today it was every bit the car the 550 my dad and i drove but for 25k less. Both of us preferred the fit and finish of the Hyundai over the 5 series. There isnt a thing on the acura lot that comes close to size or quality in my eyes as the Hyundai. Acura has lost another battle, this time to Hyundai. They took the chance to be better why cant acura. Hell even the Azera was of good quality, as good fit and finish and materials as the TL.

LuvMyTSX

I think it's frustrating because they can do it, they just don't seem to want to do it for whatever reason.