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Assuming that all the cars featured in these YT videos are wearing the performance Y-spoke wheels and summer tires and that's how we get our magical 0-60 of ~4.7 sec, we still don't have numbers on the regular all-season wheels, right?
Not sure if it would make a difference in the 0-60 time. On the Gen 4 TL, I was getting about 5.8 seconds for both the OEM all season and the Michelin PSS tires. The AWD system very nicely distributes the available torque. However handling on corners was night and day. 354lb-ft of torque into 4 tires of 255 width is not quite enough to significantly break traction on all season tires, maybe a little chirp in the beginning. Once the tires are holding, its all about weight, or lack there of to get to 60 (or any speed).
TST had one of the best reviews. I just re-watched it and his pros and cos are justifiable and he is one of the few that really pushed the car around the corners and gave us what Type S can do.
Yap, that was a nice review. I was/am a little concerned about the breaks. I saw the break warning come up on another review. Honda/Acura has not always been the best with breaks. They are more than adequate for the road, but when pushed, then tend to be less than optimal. The calipers say "Brembo" so hopefully these ones are better.
Not sure if it would make a difference in the 0-6 time. On the Gen 4 TL, I was getting about 5.8 seconds for both the OEM all season and the Michelin PSS tires. The AWD system very nicely distributes the available torque. However handling on corners was night and day. 354lb-ft of torque into 4 tires of 255 width is not quite enough to significantly break traction on all season tires, maybe a little chirp in the beginning. Once the tires are holding, its all about weight, or lack there of to get to 60 (or any speed).
Considering that the original reviews for the 2.0L turbo bemoaned the lack of a summer tire option (and the lack of grip), I would imagine summer tires and the 21 lbs saved from lighter alloy wheels should shave some time!
Yap, that was a nice review. I was/am a little concerned about the breaks. I saw the break warning come up on another review. Honda/Acura has not always been the best with breaks. They are more than adequate for the road, but when pushed, then tend to be less than optimal. The calipers say "Brembo" so hopefully these ones are better.
Brembo brakes with poor pads are Brembo brakes with poor pads. Swap to HAWK or similar & the car will be better off. Nice thing about Brembo's are the ease of pad change.
Not sure if it would make a difference in the 0-60 time. On the Gen 4 TL, I was getting about 5.8 seconds for both the OEM all season and the Michelin PSS tires. The AWD system very nicely distributes the available torque. However handling on corners was night and day. 354lb-ft of torque into 4 tires of 255 width is not quite enough to significantly break traction on all season tires, maybe a little chirp in the beginning. Once the tires are holding, its all about weight, or lack there of to get to 60 (or any speed).
Only if the ASR tires can't maintain traction which does not seem to be the case with a heavy AWD car. What you can't tell is how much intervention is taking place from the traction & stability system to maintain straight line traction. If there is intervention with the ASR the summers will turn in better times.
Also unless you are brake boosting or the car has LC you are not coming off the line with anything near 354ftlb at the crank.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 05-21-2021 at 12:59 PM.
Considering that the original reviews for the 2.0L turbo bemoaned the lack of a summer tire option (and the lack of grip), I would imagine summer tires and the 21 lbs saved from lighter alloy wheels should shave some time!
I think the main area where this was evident was when turning. Lots of tire squeal.
Considering that the original reviews for the 2.0L turbo bemoaned the lack of a summer tire option (and the lack of grip), I would imagine summer tires and the 21 lbs saved from lighter alloy wheels should shave some time!
I forgot the 21lbs, especially since it is rotating mass. I think it is like a 4:1 ratio when you take weight out of a rotating part vs a non rotating one, so equal to taking like 80lbs out of the car. So there is a possibility to see some difference there.
Brembo brakes with poor pads are Brembo brakes with poor pads. Swap to HAWK or similar & the car will be better off. Nice thing about Brembo's are the ease of pad change.
Brembo brakes with poor pads are Brembo brakes with poor pads. Swap to HAWK or similar & the car will be better off. Nice thing about Brembo's are the ease of pad change.
Agreed. Plus one of the articles (not videos) mentioned that the track cars had different pads than stock. The street driven cars had stock pads.
Only if the ASR tires can't maintain traction which does not seem to be the case with a heavy AWD car. What you can't tell is how much intervention is taking place from the traction & stability system to maintain straight line traction. If there is intervention with the ASR the summers will turn in better times.
Also unless you are brake boosting or the car has LC you are not coming off the line with anything near 354ftlb at the crank.
Yap, that is why I did not see any difference in my Gen 4 TL on 0-60 times. There was a huge difference in cornering and traction coming out of the corners, enough to get me to first place in AutoX in my class.
So, at full throttle it is still almost 100% front driver. Rear-biased? Not at all. Acura is just lying to all of us. I've got an impression that most reviewers just reading an Acura prepared script.
I currently drive 2020 BMW 540 and was hoping to talk my wife into trading her 2018 RDX to TLX-S. I expected TLX-S to be more fun and noticeably faster than my 540.
More fun - probably yes, faster - does not look so. The biggest problem - my wife hates how these gauges look. Hopefully she'll like them in person.
So, at full throttle it is still almost 100% front driver. Rear-biased? Not at all. Acura is just lying to all of us. I've got an impression that most reviewers just reading an Acura prepared script.
I currently drive 2020 BMW 540 and was hoping to talk my wife into trading her 2018 RDX to TLX-S. I expected TLX-S to be more fun and noticeably faster than my 540.
More fun - probably yes, faster - does not look so. The biggest problem - my wife hates how these gauges look. Hopefully she'll like them in person.
[/QUOTE]
Are you serious??? Did you expect at 80mph SH-AWD to be sending majority of engine power to the rear wheels. I’m pretty a 540i X-drive isn’t spending a lot of power to its front wheels at 80mph.
Are you serious??? Did you expect at 80mph SH-AWD to be sending majority of engine power to the rear wheels. I’m pretty a 540i X-drive isn’t spending a lot of power to its front wheels at 80mph.[/QUOTE]
No, ARE YOU SERIOUS?! It's in Sport + mode, 6K @ 80mph. It's not cruising in comfort mode, it's being driven hard FFS.
No, ARE YOU SERIOUS?! It's in Sport + mode, 6K @ 80mph. It's not cruising in comfort mode, it's being driven hard FFS.
Agree the car is under acceleration getting to a shift point. If the picture showed more you would see his/her fingers on the paddle. You can clearly see that in the G meter upper right. Manual shift mode, Sport+, Top of 4th gear
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 05-22-2021 at 12:33 PM.
Agree the car is under acceleration getting to a shift point. You can clearly see that in the G meter upper right. Manual shift mode, Sport+, Top of 4th gear
“As weight shifts to the rear during hard acceleration, the SH-AWD®system transfers up to 45% of engine power to the rear wheels and takes full advantage of additional, available traction.” As I asked, when have SH-AWD been able to send majority of engine power to the rear wheels at 80 mph? https://www.acura.com/tlx/modals/sup...ll-wheel-drive
So basically everything Acura marketing says is in code. It confuses the heck out of people coming from other brands when commonly used terms in the automotive world means something else altogether when they’re used by Acura.
So, at full throttle it is still almost 100% front driver. Rear-biased? Not at all. Acura is just lying to all of us.
This is always how SH-AWD works. As speed increases the rate of acceleration decreases. The system trades RWD torque for drive efficiency. At 80 MPH it doesn't matter which wheels are driven because there isn't much on power weight transfer.
Are you serious??? Did you expect at 80mph SH-AWD to be sending majority of engine power to the rear wheels. I’m pretty a 540i X-drive isn’t spending a lot of power to its front wheels at 80mph.[/QUOTE]
If I am not mistaken BMW 5 series xDrive send 70% to the rear wheels and 30% to the front wheels under normal driving conditions. It can send up to 90% back or read when needed. This is what would be fair to call "rear-biased". Normal conditions - most of the torque going to the rear.
Acura sends 100% to the front wheels unless something happens and it needs to get rear wheels involved.
It is not "rear-biased" it is a FWD with an ability to send 90% of torque to the rear when needed.
What? At 80mph fun just starts! The thing can do 155 mph easily and sure will accelerate hard at 100mph.
As a matter of physics all cars have exponentially less acceleration as speed increases. This is just a simple function of gearing and engine speed. This is why it's hard to get wheel chirp (driveline shock transmitted to the ground) as you shift higher in a RWD car.
If I am not mistaken BMW 5 series xDrive send 70% to the rear wheels and 30% to the front wheels under normal driving conditions. It can send up to 90% back or read when needed. This is what would be fair to call "rear-biased". Normal conditions - most of the torque going to the rear.
Acura sends 100% to the front wheels unless something happens and it needs to get rear wheels involved.
It is not "rear-biased" it is a FWD with an ability to send 90% of torque to the rear when needed.
You are caught up in the mechanical differences between SH-AWD and vanilla 4WD. BMW has to be rear biased, well bcause the system is RWD to begin with. SH-AWD cannot do 100% to front wheel - the rear is always coupled to the front to some degree. This is due to the drive shaft spinning at 2.9% faster than wheel speed, so if no power goes to the rear wheels, you effectively have a blender stirring the differential oil, basically heating it up for nothing. Since the drive shaft spins at 2.9%, torque vectoring effect kicks in very fast in the latest-gen SH-AWD, thus Acura does not really need to stay rear biased all the time.
The faster-spinning drive shaft is a double-edged sword, though. It means Acura cannot lock the clutch packs either and always send 70% power to the rear, because that would mean the rear wheels need to spin 2.9% faster than the front on a straightline. That doesn't work, obviously. It also mean the rear differential always induce some drags on the engine on a straightline, perhaps there is a sweet spot in the differential design, kind of like a standby mode, that balances wear and oil temperature. So that is the state that you see SH-AWD stays in when it does not need to do torque vectoring.
Basically, I suggest treating SH-AWD as torque vectoring more than 4WD, and you will get a better sense of its intention. Acura calls Type-S unit rear-biased only in their own context, meaning the programming on Type-S allows more power to go to the rear compared to normal TLX.
If I am not mistaken BMW 5 series xDrive send 70% to the rear wheels and 30% to the front wheels under normal driving conditions. It can send up to 90% back or read when needed. This is what would be fair to call "rear-biased". Normal conditions - most of the torque going to the rear.
Acura sends 100% to the front wheels unless something happens and it needs to get rear wheels involved.
It is not "rear-biased" it is a FWD with an ability to send 90% of torque to the rear when needed.
I know the marketing materials talk about torque splits but it's probably more helpful if these companies use different terminology. BMW uses a clutch actuated transfer case to send additional torque to the front wheels. The clutch duty cycle is the highest at launch. This pulls torque away from the rear wheels to help you avoid breaking traction. The system also has some logic to introduce understeer in a corner when it detects power-on oversteer. All other times the system is choosing the most efficient path for drive torque (which is typically the path that goes through the least amount of gearing i.e. RWD). The clutch has some preload so it is always active.
You'll always get better performance out of a RWD BMW than an XDrive model. The system is primarily designed for low traction situations.
You are caught up in the mechanical differences between SH-AWD and vanilla 4WD. BMW has to be rear biased, well bcause the system is RWD to begin with. SH-AWD cannot do 100% to front wheel - the rear is always coupled to the front to some degree. This is due to the drive shaft spinning at 2.9% faster than wheel speed, so if no power goes to the rear wheels, you effectively have a blender stirring the differential oil, basically heating it up for nothing. Since the drive shaft spins at 2.9%, torque vectoring effect kicks in very fast in the latest-gen SH-AWD, thus Acura does not really need to stay rear biased all the time.
The faster-spinning drive shaft is a double-edged sword, though. It means Acura cannot lock the clutch packs either and always send 70% power to the rear, because that would mean the rear wheels need to spin 2.9% faster than the front on a straightline. That doesn't work, obviously. It also mean the rear differential always induce some drags on the engine on a straightline, perhaps there is a sweet spot in the differential design, kind of like a standby mode, that balances wear and oil temperature. So that is the state that you see SH-AWD stays in when it does not need to do torque vectoring.
Basically, I suggest treating SH-AWD as torque vectoring more than 4WD, and you will get a better sense of its intention. Acura calls Type-S unit rear-biased only in their own context, meaning the programming on Type-S allows more power to go to the rear compared to normal TLX.
Acura uses two wet clutches with preload. A wet clutch is designed to have excellent wear characteristics while slipping. The newest units have a 2.7% overdrive to compensate for the fact that the front wheels travel faster in a turn than the rear wheels. When the clutch is at maximum duty cycle, the rear wheels can add positive torque rather than scrubbing the rear wheels and getting transmission bind like in a 4WD vehicle.
In a straight line there is no drag at the rear wheels. At 60 MPH the output shaft is rotating at about 1000 RPM (assuming a 21 inc wheel diameter) and the overdriven input shaft is rotating at 1027 RPM. Part of that friction is transmitted as drive torque to the rear wheels, part of that is lost to heat.
You'll always get better performance out of a RWD BMW than an XDrive model. The system is primarily designed for low traction situations.
BMW;s best performance model the M5 Zero to 60 mph: 2.8 sec, Standing ¼-mile: 10.9 sec @ 130 mph, Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 1.00 g only comes with AWD.
BMW says this
Intelligent power distribution.
The new M5 comes equipped with standard M xDrive – BMW's most performance-oriented all-wheel drive system, with adjustable 4WD, 4WD Sport, and 2WD modes for ultimate control over the road.
FWIW AWD is a to be released option on the new M3/M4
Regardless of why SH-AWD sends more power to the front wheels by default, the fact is that it's disingenuous for Acura marketing to claim that it's rear-biased. Rear-biased suggests that the car has RWD tendencies as default, and only sends power reactively to the front wheels as necessary. Instead, the TFL video shows that even under acceleration the majority of power goes to the front, and only gets sent rearwards reactively.
Regardless of why SH-AWD sends more power to the front wheels by default, the fact is that it's disingenuous for Acura marketing to claim that it's rear-biased. Rear-biased suggests that the car has RWD tendencies as default, and only sends power reactively to the front wheels as necessary. Instead, the TFL video shows that even under acceleration the majority of power goes to the front, and only gets sent rearwards reactively.
dude why are you making such strong claims off one video. We don’t even know what the car was experiencing at that time to make it send the power to the front wheels. Just be patient more review videos will be out soon.
dude why are you making such strong claims off one video. We don’t even know what the car was experiencing at that time to make it send the power to the front wheels. Just be patient more review videos will be out soon.
Because this is exactly how the 4th gen (and all gens) SH-AWD behaves in the regular TLX. Unless you think the Type S fundamentally behaves differently, I don't think it's an overreaction to call out Acura marketing for once again making claims that do not match reality.
Also, this is not a single clip. Go watch the TFL video. This exact same behavior can be seen at 4:48, 5:48, 6:10, and 7:49. We can see clearly based on the G-meter that when the car is not turning and accelerating at speeds when traction is not limited, almost all the power is sent to the front wheels.
Again, not the first time Acura's marketing department took creative liberties.
Because this is exactly how the 4th gen (and all gens) SH-AWD behaves in the regular TLX. Unless you think the Type S fundamentally behaves differently, I don't think it's an overreaction to call out Acura marketing for once again making claims that do not match reality.
Also, this is not a single clip. Go watch the TFL video. This exact same behavior can be seen at 4:48, 5:48, 6:10, and 7:49. We can see clearly based on the G-meter that when the car is not turning and accelerating at speeds when traction is not limited, almost all the power is sent to the front wheels.
Again, not the first time Acura's marketing department took creative liberties.
Acura's statement about the SH-Awd being rear biased is a correct statement. The "on track" views of the MID showing the screen was NOT the whole picture of what the system can do. They weren't
pushed to that point. What Acura is saying is that "up to 70% of torque can be shifted to the rear, and when needed up to 100% of that can be sent to the outside wheel in a hard turn.
THAT IS REAR BIAS....that can happen IF needed. They weren't overstating....or whatever. Doesn't mean the rear is "always rear biased."
M xDrive uses a torque vectoring rear differential and zero-preload clutch to mitigate the understeer effects. Different than regular xDrive.
M Sport Differential. M340
Outperform the competition at every turn with the race-inspired handling and tactile cornering delivered by the standard M Sport Differential and Suspension.
M Sport Differential. Z4 M40
The M Sport Differential brings sharper handling and superior traction to boost your driving performance to new levels.
What are these? Have one in my car but never thought about it.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 05-22-2021 at 07:03 PM.
Acura's statement about the SH-Awd being rear biased is a correct statement. The "on track" views of the MID showing the screen was NOT the whole picture of what the system can do. They weren't
pushed to that point. What Acura is saying is that "up to 70% of torque can be shifted to the rear, and when needed up to 100% of that can be sent to the outside wheel in a hard turn.
THAT IS REAR BIAS....that can happen IF needed. They weren't overstating....or whatever. Doesn't mean the rear is "always rear biased."
Don't want to put words in his mouth but what I believe he is saying its a naturally FWD biased AWD car that can simulate a AWD naturally RWD biased car under certain conditions.
Its obvious the conditions were not being met in the picture we are all looking at. The G meter says he is going straight ahead under power & accelerating. Expect because its well up in speed the engine does not deliver enough torque to unload the front wheels which would trigger a shift to more torque to the rear wheels.
dude why are you making such strong claims off one video. We don’t even know what the car was experiencing at that time to make it send the power to the front wheels. Just be patient more review videos will be out soon.
Exactly..as I told "your friend." Acura is not stupid. They clearly state the system puts up to 90% of the power/torque to the FRONT WHEELS when on a flat road at a steady cruising speed. SO...
they are not saying the system is "rear biased" in the way your "buddy" thinks. It's the way I explained it to him. It can and does..."rear bias" when pushed and needed. It's really that simple. Geez!!
Don't want to put words in his mouth but what I believe he is saying its a naturally FWD biased AWD car that can simulate a AWD naturally RWD biased car under certain conditions.
Its obvious the conditions were not being met in the picture we are all looking at. The G meter says he is going straight ahead under power & accelerating. Expect because its well up in speed the engine does not deliver enough torque to unload the front wheels which would trigger a shift to more torque to the rear wheels.
I agree what you are saying...but, he acts like an Acura hater...stating they lie. No they don't. As I answered him and another person. It can rear bias a LOT...when and if needed. But, it certainly is
not a "rear biased" ....meaning all the time type of system. Bottom line...it's about the best torque vectoring system out there, and when pushed hard and fast in a sweeping turn...wow, it will rotate that
rear right through the corner. Great system. But, MOST folks will never realize or "feel" what it can do, 'cause they will be afraid to push it that hard to truly "feel" the rotation.
I pushed my TLX A-Spec, '19 model, really hard through a sweeping on ramp at a speed way above "posted speed"...LOL....and I felt that rotation and it was super cool. I could have taken it at a higher
speed, but, since I'm not a pro driver...I went as far as I was comfortable with. I was just over 70 in a 35 mph posted on ramp. Dry, smooth, clean ramp. So, I went for it. No tire squeal either!
But, at least I got to experience what the pros do say about the system. It's fun! Got to have proper tires too!!!
Someone in another thread talked about the squealing tires back when the A-Spec version was tested...and every time the tires were howling. Why???...not enough or proper tire to push it really hard.
Factory tires on that model aren't good enough for that. So, bottom line....they "cry for help!! LOL!!
I agree what you are saying...but, he acts like an Acura hater...stating they lie. No they don't. As I answered him and another person. It can rear bias a LOT...when and if needed. But, it certainly is
not a "rear biased" ....meaning all the time type of system. Bottom line...it's about the best torque vectoring system out there, and when pushed hard and fast in a sweeping turn...wow, it will rotate that
rear right through the corner. Great system. But, MOST folks will never realize or "feel" what it can do, 'cause they will be afraid to push it that hard to truly "feel" the rotation.
I pushed my TLX A-Spec, '19 model, really hard through a sweeping on ramp at a speed way above "posted speed"...LOL....and I felt that rotation and it was super cool. I could have taken it at a higher
speed, but, since I'm not a pro driver...I went as far as I was comfortable with. I was just over 70 in a 35 mph posted on ramp. Dry, smooth, clean ramp. So, I went for it. No tire squeal either!
But, at least I got to experience what the pros do say about the system. It's fun! Got to have proper tires too!!!
Someone in another thread talked about the squealing tires back when the A-Spec version was tested...and every time the tires were howling. Why???...not enough or proper tire to push it really hard.
Factory tires on that model aren't good enough for that. So, bottom line....they "cry for help!! LOL!!
Sorry but Acura literally calls it “rear-biased Super Handling All-Wheel Drive”, not “Super Handling All-Wheel Drive they can rear-bias a LOT…when and if needed ”. See the distinction? I’m not the one making those claims; Acura is. But go ahead and continue the mental gymnastics so that you can defend their claims.
^^^^^^^^^^
I think it's just gamesmanship on Acura's part. Is it as bad as stopping the A/C in an away team's hotel room the day before a big game? You make the call...
^^^^^^^^^^
I think it's just gamesmanship on Acura's part. Is it as bad as stopping the A/C in an away team's hotel room the day before a big game? You make the call...
To be clear, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Acura’s AWD system. I actually think it’s the best system out there. However, that doesn’t mean I can’t call out Acura’s marketing dept for making it out to be something that it isn’t. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; I love Honda/Acura engineering, but I really dislike the business and marketing side of their company. Constantly overselling to the point where there’s no way the car can live up to those expectations, but alas I guess regular people (and fanboys) slurp it up. Gives off the impression that they’re trying too hard
This is funny, none of the car reviewing experts seem to be disputing Acura's rear bias claims yet we have folks here who aren't engineers accusing Acura of dishonesty. Go figure. I really think it's just a matter of not really understanding the point Acura is making.
This is funny, none of the car reviewing experts seem to be disputing Acura's rear bias claims yet we have folks here who aren't engineers accusing Acura of dishonesty. Go figure. I really think it's just a matter of not really understanding the point Acura is making.
Being an AWD system, I would assume to at least have 50-50 distribution under most Sport+ circumstances. Sending most of it to the front on a sunny day with no weather or slippage issues is not in any way or form rear biased. If it really was rear biased, you'd never see the front wheels get such a high proportion of the power on a clean test track. That would be a mechanical limitation. I believe the S4 can't send more than 40% to the front, so it automatically is rear biased.
Last edited by pyrodan007; 05-23-2021 at 12:56 PM.
This is funny, none of the car reviewing experts seem to be disputing Acura's rear bias claims yet we have folks here who aren't engineers accusing Acura of dishonesty. Go figure. I really think it's just a matter of not really understanding the point Acura is making.
So what exactly is the point they’re making? That under certain conditions more power can be sent to the rear? Because if that’s how they define what a rear-biased system is, then the CRV and RAV4 also have rear-biased AWD systems. See how silly that sounds?
05-21-2021, 12:25 PM
You can clearly see that in the G meter upper right. Manual shift mode, Sport+, Top of 4th gear
