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Real Estate its Location, location, location. Car its Price, price, price.
Think $5/10K ADM is nutz but people are buying the Type R Civics for a lot of money so the Type S will sell with an ADM for awhile.
The MSRP @ $55,000 is close to OTD price for many other cars with stronger reputations & badges.
Think once the new wears off they will have to get near $50K OTD to maintain sales.
guys don't let these Euro lovers affect how you feel about the Type-S. go drive one. if you like and want to buy it do so. who cares if it isnt the fastest in its class. Acura has never been about that anyways. I own an Audi, BMW and an Acura now. I see merits to all the brands and what they are trying to accomplish. Enjoy what you want to enjoy. I've owned fast cars and I never really cared about how it performed against another vehicle. dont let these haters influence you. go make a decision for yourself.
guys don't let these Euro lovers affect how you feel about the Type-S. go drive one. if you like and want to buy it do so. who cares if it isnt the fastest in its class. Acura has never been about that anyways. I own an Audi, BMW and an Acura now. I see merits to all the brands and what they are trying to accomplish. Enjoy what you want to enjoy. I've owned fast cars and I never really cared about how it performed against another vehicle. dont let these haters influence you. go make a decision for yourself.
guys don't let these Euro lovers affect how you feel about the Type-S. go drive one. if you like and want to buy it do so. who cares if it isnt the fastest in its class. Acura has never been about that anyways. I own an Audi, BMW and an Acura now. I see merits to all the brands and what they are trying to accomplish. Enjoy what you want to enjoy. I've owned fast cars and I never really cared about how it performed against another vehicle. dont let these haters influence you. go make a decision for yourself.
What happens to the people who drive it and decide to buy a different car? Are their opinions now null and void becuase they are now haters?
I'm going to do exactly that. I'm looking at BMW as my other option (no to audi) and if I do make the switch you definitely wont see me on here discussing anything involving Acura. I could careless what Acura then do lol. It feels "personal" on here at times. Strictly business with me
M340s are trading almost $10K under right now and to most people will be perceived as the "better" car. I'm thinking outside of clownworld bubbles like NorCal, the ADM period will be very short. Maybe it depends on the supposed chip shortage, but yeah. Don't pay over sticker for this car.
It seems like even Acura owners aren’t welcome here on Acurazine, judging by the prerequisite to only wax lyrical about everything Acura does. I have definitely seen Fiatlux, Pyrodan, even Bear say positive things about the new TLX. But the minute they point out flaws or shortcomings about the car, they’re labeled as haters.
I'm going to do exactly that. I'm looking at BMW as my other option (no to audi) and if I do make the switch you definitely wont see me on here discussing anything involving Acura. I could careless what Acura then do lol. It feels "personal" on here at times. Strictly business with me
Seriously! I've been lurking for months looking for some objective commentary and discussion - the good, the bad and the ugly - but it's nonstop nitpicking and condemnation over many things that most professional reviewers see as trivial. Nobody talks about how the TLX-S improves on the base or areas where it beats competitors. Just its shortcomings. Any positive claims are shot down immediately and optimism is consistently dampened.
It's the polar opposite of the biased fanboyism on sites like reddit lol.
Imo it seems as if some former Acura owners went out and bought another brand (ie Audi) and they have to rag on the TLX-S to make them feel better about their decision (confirmation bias). It's especially telling since the S4 is generally viewed as the weakest in the niche (probably why Acura is using it as a benchmark).
Interesting estimate. Almost as if they're projecting that it'll run out of steam fairly quickly on top end acceleration. (0-100 in 13.5 seconds comes in marginally slower than the time they posted for the 15 TLX 3.5 PAWS, and the 1/4 is only a half second quicker)
I really expect the actual numbers to be far more formidable than this estimate.
My personal assessment is that the Type-S is an excellent value....IF you can leave the dealer paying just the $52.8K msrp minus incentives+tax. I don't think it needs to check off every single box from the Advance package when it's already heavy enough and better equipped than the Germans for the price. However I'll reserve judgement until after C/D's performance tests. If the 4.6 sec 0-60 estimate is real I'm sold.
When you factor in performance, price, tech, features, design, reliability, fit/finish, resale value, etc I think the TLX-S bests the S4, S60, CT5-V, G70, Giulia, Q70.
The M340i, S5, IS 500 are better overall packages but at those prices you're almost better off getting a lightly used M/RS/F.
PS I don't like the C43 period, but that's just me.
My personal assessment is that the Type-S is an excellent value....IF you can leave the dealer paying just the $52.8K msrp minus incentives+tax. I don't think it needs to check off every single box from the Advance package when it's already heavy enough and better equipped than the Germans for the price. However I'll reserve judgement until after C/D's performance tests. If the 4.6 sec 0-60 estimate is real I'm sold.
When you factor in performance, price, tech, features, design, reliability, fit/finish, resale value, etc I think the TLX-S bests the S4, S60, CT5-V, G70, Giulia, Q70.
The M340i, S5, IS 500 are better overall packages but at those prices you're almost better off getting a lightly used M/RS/F.
PS I don't like the C43 period, but that's just me.
This is why I think it's a miss for Acura to not also offer a base Type S. Strip off all the A-Spec stuff, and this could be a $45K car (base TLX is $7K less than the A-Spec that the Type-S is built on). Even the staunchest "hater" would have to give the car props on undercutting the base S4 by so much. Instead, what we have is a car that is equipped well enough to push the price up to wear the Germans start at, but is also missing a bunch of features you can get on the Germans (at a cost, but let's be honest, people buying $60K sport sedans are not that price sensitive).
A request to keep the discussion on topic, please. I, personally, don't care what your opinion about the new car is, or whether you are a current Acura owner, or not. Thank you for those who are keeping on topic.
Paul did the best job of analysis, testing, and honest impressions. AND his great explanation of how SH-Awd works to anyone can understand just how good
this 4th gen of the system is. He knows how to drive all kinds of veh....and his a track pro.
And...no, this is not a "track car." Just a great "sports sedan" with lots to offer...and one of..if not the best torque vectoring AWD systems out there today. He's
driven them all. I've owned many. Great car to drive to dinner in....and then take it out on some great winding, twisty roads and "kick butt" even IF it's NOT the
fastest out there...so what? All around a great job for the price point....and should be a reliable all around fun sedan. That's what it was built to be.
Joe keeps calling it a 2022! As far as I know...Acura says it IS a 2021!! Go to Acura's web page and build one. What are you building??? It's a 2021.
Joe...makes a lot of "errors" and I've watched a TON of his reviews. He's good...but, there are a couple of better ones out there. Paul from tflcar.com,
and Savage Geese are a couple. Paul is GREAT. A real pro and has raced and driven most everything out there.
I think Joe's brain is still locked in to the 2022 MDX!! LOL!! I have one...strange as it's been that Acura "jumped over" the 2021 MDX designation/year!!!
A 1 to 1.5-second improvement in 0-60 over the 4-cylinder is unimpressive and negligible. What interests me is how quickly the car gets moving from a cruising speed. I'm 97% happy with my 4-cylinder S-AWD. I just wish she moved faster in a pinch. I normally drive in "normal" mode and really have to floor it at highway speeds if I want to make a quick move, and even then I'm usually wishing for more juice. Often there's not enough time, or my reflexes are too lazy to kick it into "sport" in time. So, I guess I'm more interested in 65-90 MPH times. At lower speeds (30-40) there is way too much lag in "normal" mode when you kick it. So, screw 0-60. If the type-s will move its ass more quickly in a pinch, I'll be interested.
Sounds to me like you are used to the J35? That V6 had no problem at all getting out of the way and building plenty of power at high speeds.
I was watching the TFL video and noticed that the torque distribution screen shows that almost all the power goes to the front wheels when WOT going straight. That makes sense since there's less drivetrain losses at the front wheels...but doesn't Acura claim "354 lb-ft of torque transfers to the pavement by the rear-biased Super Handling All-Wheel Drive™ (SH-AWD®)."? Does rear-biased mean somethinng different from what I believe it to be? I interpreted that to mean that under normal conditions, more power goes to the rear than to the front. Is this another case of Acura marketing taking creative liberties with their content?
Reading and watching more of the reviews, I'm getting a GTR/Evo vibe from how this performs. Namely, the computers and trick AWD system allows drivers to go around corners much faster than their skills would normally allow for. Some people poo-poo that because they call it "cheating" and "inauthentic", but more G's is more G's no matter how you slice it. Some people like cars that grip, some people like momentum cars, and some people like cars that can swing the tail out and challenge the driver. Unfortunately, I don't know if drivers will be able to experience that on a regular ol' test drive, which is a shame. I certainly wasn't able to experience that when I test drove an Evo, but when I swapped cars with a buddy for a couple sessions at the track, that's where it really shined. It's a car that's easy to go fast in, and it seems like the Type S has that same kind of characteristic.
I know I had previously crossed the Type S off the list no matter how good it is due to the unusable rear seats for baby duty...but in a couple years when I can flip the carseat forwards (and assuming no more babies), maybe the ADM's will be gone and I can get one for less than sticker. I for one hope the numbers for this car sucks so that way there's less demand for it .
I was watching the TFL video and noticed that the torque distribution screen shows that almost all the power goes to the front wheels when WOT going straight. That makes sense since there's less drivetrain losses at the front wheels...but doesn't Acura claim "354 lb-ft of torque transfers to the pavement by the rear-biased Super Handling All-Wheel Drive™ (SH-AWD®)."? Does rear-biased mean somethinng different from what I believe it to be? I interpreted that to mean that under normal conditions, more power goes to the rear than to the front. Is this another case of Acura marketing taking creative liberties with their content?
The rear differential is overdriven. Assuming the clutch packs could hold infinitely hard, the rear would spin faster than the front.
I know I had previously crossed the Type S off the list no matter how good it is due to the unusable rear seats for baby duty...but in a couple years when I can flip the carseat forwards (and assuming no more babies), maybe the ADM's will be gone and I can get one for less than sticker. I for one hope the numbers for this car sucks so that way there's less demand for it .
Mine are 6 and 3, so I know the pain about rear-facing seats. Even in my current TL, it made it uncomfortable for the passenger seat. Glad both are front-facing now. Takes up a lot less room!
Even if it's over-driven, if almost no power is being sent to the rear, does that still make it rear-biased?
Well that depends on perspective more than anything else. The system, when fully hooked up, has a rear wheel speed bias and a front wheel torque bias. This unusual because many sports cars with a center differential have both a torque and speed bias on only one set of wheels. What I take the Acura marketing team to mean is that the AWD system can induce oversteer in a turn because of the 2.5% overdrive. That's a difficult concept to communicate in one sentence advertising copy. If you plopped someone familiar with racing but without any knowledge of the system into this car, it would feel like a rear-wheel biased AWD system (with slightly better efficiency).
Reading and watching more of the reviews, I'm getting a GTR/Evo vibe from how this performs. Namely, the computers and trick AWD system allows drivers to go around corners much faster than their skills would normally allow for.
I just watched the track video from Smoking Tire, and I got the same feeling as you and also a big relief. The car was not that slow going uphill before corkscrew after all (probably was slowed by the lead car in other videos for safety reason). The handling was also totally fine, though in typical Acura/SH-AWD style, the car seemed to reward trail-braking to cancel out understeer then early throttle to support/enhance the rotation and power out. Matt certainly knows how to extract the best of this car, though I am not sure if he was doing 100%, because the car was too stable. Personally, I want to see a wilder Sport+ mode that allows more movement.
I just watched the track video from Smoking Tire, and I got the same feeling as you and also a big relief. The car was not that slow going uphill before corkscrew after all (probably was slowed by the lead car in other videos for safety reason). The handling was also totally fine, though in typical Acura/SH-AWD style, the car seemed to reward trail-braking to cancel out understeer then early throttle to support/enhance the rotation and power out. Matt certainly knows how to extract the best of this car, though I am not sure if he was doing 100%, because the car was too stable. Personally, I want to see a wilder Sport+ mode that allows more movement.
How the car was able to rotate around the second apex of turn 2 is what was most interesting for me to see. There was one instance where he took an early apex and with the throttle pinned the car just pulled him through with no fuss. No hint of power oversteer, which I guess is less exciting or thrilling, but that does give drivers more confidence to really attack these corners because even with more steering angle you’d plow but not oversteer and spin out.
I think you’re right; the car does seem to want you to trail-brake to help the rear end step out and point the nose in the right direction, and then have you get back on the power earlier than normal to pull it through the rest of the turn.
A couple of years ago, when Acura was making Type S and RLX decisions, they should have also decided to kill off the ILX as well and make the TLX a "tweener" size (b/w ILX and current TLX size). This smaller size would make the car a lot lighter, much more competitive 0-60, and less costly. By killing off the ILX, it would prevent cannibalizing of TLX sales since it would be a true compact car. I know the ILX is a cash cow but sometimes you have to make the hard decisions to ensure the future of your company. As others have said, this Type S should have been the base model while sales from the SUV's would have subsidized development of a mild hybrid system for an even more powerful Type S during the MCR.
Judging by the size of the V6, I guess Acura really couldn't make the TLX any smaller.
Even if it's over-driven, if almost no power is being sent to the rear, does that still make it rear-biased?
At 80mph in the straight, almost all of it goes to the front, but if you drove one (even an older model), accelerating from a dig sends more than 2/3rd of the torque to the back. you can see some of it in the curves when the driver is accelerating, more going to the back and especially to the outside wheel.
Also, the term "rear-biased" is a lot more a sales term than an actual advantage these days for driving. The Acura SH-AWD system has always been a front-biased system. This is for safety for the 99% of the drivers. But one thing that system did ( and I believe still does) that most other AWD systems can only dream of, is to manage the power/torque going to each of the wheels, so that the average driver becomes a lot better than average. It is superior to many of the rare-biased systems you find. I owned a TL-SH from 2012 to 2019, it was over weight and under powered (my opinion), but it was so much confidence inspiring to drive because of the SH system. I do miss the TL.
It is more important to make the TLX lighter in weight, more so than smaller in size.
Size plays a big role. The TLX is as heavy as other luxury cars of similar size. The 5 series is around 4,100lbs. The S6 is around 4,300lbs. The AWD system and double wishbone suspension also don't help the weight but do improve handling.
I think people would be OK with the size and weight if it actually had the interior space comparable to cars of its size. If it had the same type of interior space as an Accord, this car would legitimately be able to go up against cars like the 540i, E43 AMG, A6 3.0T, etc. while being the most performance/track focused out of all of them and undercut them significantly. But then I guess it would functionally be an RLX which I guess Acura has some PTSD over.
It is more important to make the TLX lighter in weight, more so than smaller in size.
Not sure about the importance but I believe it is a lot more difficult (very costly) to make a vehicle lighter than to add power. From what I have read, this one is tipping the scales at 4200lbs, that is 300+lbs more than the car I got in 2012. A lot of this added weight is driven by the need for safety while keeping the cost reasonable. I believe this car still needs more power and torque, something around 400hp/380tq to reasonably manage that weight and make it stand out and be loved by especially the reviewing crowd. I remember in n 2014 I asked for a TL with 50-60 more lb-ft of torque and about 400hp, when Acura was going fort the so called "light weight" TLX. https://acurazine.com/forums/first-g.../#post14945982
7 years later, they are going in the right direction, but not quite there yet.
TST had one of the best reviews. I just re-watched it and his pros and cos are justifiable and he is one of the few that really pushed the car around the corners and gave us what Type S can do.
Assuming that all the cars featured in these YT videos are wearing the performance Y-spoke wheels and summer tires and that's how we get our magical 0-60 of ~4.7 sec, we still don't have numbers on the regular all-season wheels, right?
05-20-2021, 02:38 PM
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