2021 Acura TLX vs The Competition
#1401
AZ Community Team
Lexus is a mass produced status brand not a performance brand. Virtually no competitive performance cars that sell to any reasonable extent due to lack of performance. At the both the mid range $65,000 as well as at the top end $90,000 & up a few expensive low production mid level performance LC series GT's to go with the LS buyers sedan.
The movement toward sport for Audi, Lexus, and Mercedes Benz is well documented as well as BMW's movement toward more luxury.
At one time, BMW and MB were so confident of their respective markets they invited each other to their annual company picnics in the 1970's.
That all changed in the 90's when BMW with the 2G 7 series went toward more luxury, now it's all out competition with all those companies.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 11-02-2021 at 01:13 PM.
#1402
If i ever start making up unsubstantiated blanket statements in an attempt to belittle the people who have purchased a vehicle that i have no interest in on a message board for fans of said vehicle, can everyone please remind me that there are other productive things i could be doing with my life? Thanks.
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WTF.Acura (11-04-2021)
#1403
if thats true then why did Acura sell 1952 Tlx’s in sept vs Lexus selling 1536 is’s? 22932 TLX’s from jan -Sept vs 20,160 for the Lexus? If 90% of people prefer the Lexus that math would a fair bit different.
If i ever start making up unsubstantiated blanket statements in an attempt to belittle the people who have purchased a vehicle that i have no interest in on a message board for fans of said vehicle, can everyone please remind me that there are other productive things i could be doing with my life? Thanks.
If i ever start making up unsubstantiated blanket statements in an attempt to belittle the people who have purchased a vehicle that i have no interest in on a message board for fans of said vehicle, can everyone please remind me that there are other productive things i could be doing with my life? Thanks.
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BEAR-AvHistory (11-02-2021)
#1404
yes conveniently when comparing the sales of the 2 vehicles being discussed, i somehow managed to completely forget to include the sales if a 3rd unrelated and previously undiscussed vehicle…
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WTF.Acura (11-04-2021)
#1405
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Why do you want to penalize Lexus for having more cars to choose from than a IS-XXX? Its Acura's problem they have such a small product lineup, not Lexus's problem that they have a very broad product line.
Used to be the same nonsense back in 3G days when the TL was competitive performance wise with the Germans. On any given month the BMW 3 series would out sell the TL series. The whine went up you have to subtract the Coupes & Convertibles 3 series out of the number because Acura did not have any. Of course nobody knew that number because only a single number was posted for the 3's
The issue is Acura is pretty much a one car show in this price range TLX $37,500 to $53,100. With 2 lines TLX & TLX-S that come in 5 flavors.
Lexus in the same price range, $39,060 to about $55,250, has 4 lines ES, IS, RC, Hybrid. Those 4 lines have about 21 different flavors. You want to compare sales look at the sales for the whole group in the price range. Joey is not going to run to the Acura store because a specific model came up short in some YouTubers opinion.
Why you might ask, well because you totally misunderstood what the 90% was about. Non car guys. It did not represent that out of every 10 cars sold 9 would be a Lexus IS whatever and one TLX/TLX/S. It represented that 90% of the car buyers know nothing about how a car goes other than you put gas in it & push a button to start the thing under the hood.
You want to challenge the 90% which I will admit is a WAG, just start right here I what might be considered a car guy forum. A few guys that play resident engineer, one or two that have actually ever built a car, one or two that have actually run an Acura in a timed event & most of the rest who say they don't live their lives a 1/4 mile at at time & just want a good reliable car & good dealer service.
Most if any DIY modifications tend toward cosmetics. Even back when I was running the TL at the strip most TL car guy activity was Cars & Coffee & parking lot meets.
If i ever start making up unsubstantiated blanket statements in an attempt to belittle the people who have purchased a vehicle that i have no interest in on a message board for fans of said vehicle, can everyone please remind me that there are other productive things i could be doing with my life? Thanks.
Can't help you here have no idea why you feel belittled, you did not write the review we are talking about. Did you read the comments after the video - how did you feel about them?$T
M
37,500
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-02-2021 at 11:53 PM.
#1406
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BEAR-AvHistory (11-03-2021)
#1407
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That's your opinion but Lexus to me is a luxury brand that also has performance oriented cars like the LFA (carbon fiber chassis with a V10 and rear transaxle), IS-F, heck they even made a Lexus LS 500 F Sport.
The movement toward sport for Audi, Lexus, and Mercedes Benz is well documented as well as BMW's movement toward more luxury.
At one time, BMW and MB were so confident of their respective markets they invited each other to their annual company picnics in the 1970's.
That all changed in the 90's when BMW with the 2G 7 series went toward more luxury, now it's all out competition with all those companies.
The movement toward sport for Audi, Lexus, and Mercedes Benz is well documented as well as BMW's movement toward more luxury.
At one time, BMW and MB were so confident of their respective markets they invited each other to their annual company picnics in the 1970's.
That all changed in the 90's when BMW with the 2G 7 series went toward more luxury, now it's all out competition with all those companies.
Lexus (experience amazing) SEDANS SUV COUPES HYBRIDS PERFORMANCE FUTURE,
Many product lines listed under each category. Under Performance they list RC-F $65,975 @ 471BHP, LC $93,050 @ 471BHP, LC HYBRID $97,510 @ 353BHP, LC Convertible $101,100 @ 471BHP
These are there specifically listed performance cars. Based on the numbers Lexus published along with the cars they can't compete with a 382BHP M340. These are excellent luxury GT cruisers & are in no way competing with the Germans in the performance arena.
The entire lineup is slower than an $60,000 M340. At the top end, not the unobtanium Carbon fiber LFA, but the $101,000 to start LC convertible @ 471BHP, . Compared against a peer priced $92,000 M4 convertible @ 503BHP its well off the pace. 0-60 4.4 vs 3.24 (3.08 1 ft rollout) 11.4 1/4 mile with a 1.67 60ft time.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-03-2021 at 12:35 AM.
#1408
Bear it’s the entirety of your statement. You’re saying 90% of shoppers see Acura vs Lexus as Lexus being the obvious choice because its Lexus. Yet sales numbers for TLX vs IS dont add up to your statement. The direct competitors between these 2 companies are the IS and TLX, and the TLX sells more. Your statement is an incorrect analysis of what people should/would choose to do based on your own bias against Acura that sneaks its way in to the majority of posts you make.
ES median sales age is 67, it has a specific buyer. RC has 2 doors, it has a specific buyer. The fact that Acura doesnt offer a competitor to the ES or RC is as much a detriment to its sales as a benefit as no one comes in looking at those other models and switches to the TLX as well as switching out of it. Your assumption is that the IS is losing sales to the ES and RC ignores the fact that its also gaining sales from people chooseing the IS instead of the ES and RC. A large percentage of customers compare vehicles from different brands, and choose whats best for them. An Acura RDX or Toyota Rav4 could steal a TLX sale, it doesnt matter how you want to try and spin it, the TLX outsells the IS and they are direct competitors. You stated that its an obvious choice to choose a Lexus over an Acura, sales numbers dont agree with you, so your statement is incorrect and aimed at continuing to put down Acura, and by association it’s buyers as inferior. If you cant understand that then i don’t really know how else to explain it.
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WTF.Acura (11-04-2021)
#1409
Bear it’s the entirety of your statement. You’re saying 90% of shoppers see Acura vs Lexus as Lexus being the obvious choice because its Lexus. Yet sales numbers for TLX vs IS dont add up to your statement. The direct competitors between these 2 companies are the IS and TLX, and the TLX sells more. Your statement is an incorrect analysis of what people should/would choose to do based on your own bias against Acura that sneaks its way in to the majority of posts you make.
ES median sales age is 67, it has a specific buyer. RC has 2 doors, it has a specific buyer. The fact that Acura doesnt offer a competitor to the ES or RC is as much a detriment to its sales as a benefit as no one comes in looking at those other models and switches to the TLX as well as switching out of it. Your assumption is that the IS is losing sales to the ES and RC ignores the fact that its also gaining sales from people chooseing the IS instead of the ES and RC. A large percentage of customers compare vehicles from different brands, and choose whats best for them. An Acura RDX or Toyota Rav4 could steal a TLX sale, it doesnt matter how you want to try and spin it, the TLX outsells the IS and they are direct competitors. You stated that its an obvious choice to choose a Lexus over an Acura, sales numbers dont agree with you, so your statement is incorrect and aimed at continuing to put down Acura, and by association it’s buyers as inferior. If you cant understand that then i don’t really know how else to explain it.
ES median sales age is 67, it has a specific buyer. RC has 2 doors, it has a specific buyer. The fact that Acura doesnt offer a competitor to the ES or RC is as much a detriment to its sales as a benefit as no one comes in looking at those other models and switches to the TLX as well as switching out of it. Your assumption is that the IS is losing sales to the ES and RC ignores the fact that its also gaining sales from people chooseing the IS instead of the ES and RC. A large percentage of customers compare vehicles from different brands, and choose whats best for them. An Acura RDX or Toyota Rav4 could steal a TLX sale, it doesnt matter how you want to try and spin it, the TLX outsells the IS and they are direct competitors. You stated that its an obvious choice to choose a Lexus over an Acura, sales numbers dont agree with you, so your statement is incorrect and aimed at continuing to put down Acura, and by association it’s buyers as inferior. If you cant understand that then i don’t really know how else to explain it.
There’s also plenty of other reasons people buy Acura over Lexus. Sportiness is one aspect, but let’s not beat around the bush: price is a huge aspect. Acura owners are in general more price sensitive than Lexus owners. Household income tends to be lower, and the ATP tends to be lower. Even among enthusiasts here, we often qualify any statement about Acura with “for the price”. It’s the best performing in its class…for the price. It’s the best equipped in its class…for the price.
Last edited by fiatlux; 11-03-2021 at 11:07 AM.
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#1410
AZ Community Team
Are they direct competitors? Let’s be honest, a FWD TLX has more in common with the ES than the RWD IS. It would be interesting to see what the FWD/SH-AWD split is, but someone who buys a FWD TLX was likely never cross shopping against the IS to begin with.
There’s also plenty of other reasons people buy Acura over Lexus. Sportiness is one aspect, but let’s not beat around the bush: price is a huge aspect. Acura owners are in general more price sensitive than Lexus owners. Household income tends to be lower, and the ATP tends to be lower. Even among enthusiasts here, we often qualify any statement about Acura with “for the price”. It’s the best performing in its class…for the price. It’s the best equipped in its class…for the price.
There’s also plenty of other reasons people buy Acura over Lexus. Sportiness is one aspect, but let’s not beat around the bush: price is a huge aspect. Acura owners are in general more price sensitive than Lexus owners. Household income tends to be lower, and the ATP tends to be lower. Even among enthusiasts here, we often qualify any statement about Acura with “for the price”. It’s the best performing in its class…for the price. It’s the best equipped in its class…for the price.
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WTF.Acura (11-04-2021)
#1411
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ES median sales age is 67, it has a specific buyer. RC has 2 doors, it has a specific buyer. The fact that Acura doesnt offer a competitor to the ES or RC is as much a detriment to its sales as a benefit as no one comes in looking at those other models and switches to the TLX as well as switching out of it.
BMW's entire USA line looks like:
24 years old and younger: 1%
25 to 54 years of age: 40%
55 to 64 years of age: 29%
65 years old and older: 30%
The more expensive (better performing) the car the higher the age group it falls into.
You are trying to make the same claim as was made in the 3G time frame. Acura does not make a coupe or convertible so it does not count toward BMW sales. All you have done is swap BMW for Lexus to make the same argument. Its always follow the money. The competitive arena we are talking about is $40-$55. The Lexus product lines that fit that arena include the cars I listed.
Lexus themselves based on their choice of segmentation do not even list the IS/ES/RC as performance variants. They are just nice cars that in some cases also preform pretty well but with 302BHP maybe they should be tested against the 277BHP TLX.
My bias is not anti Acura its pro-performance. I am a car guy & my bias says the TLX/TLX-S is a great all-round family car that no longer has a great level of appeal to those who like me owned a TL when it did compete on both performance & price. Its good to look at & it performs adequately for to quote one of the big fan poster here "its intended use".
Just as an add-on these are the number Lexus cars priced in the TLX/TLX-S price range. Reason I included older years is because 2020/2021 are not valid to stand alone due to flu & parts shortages
TLX
Year sold
2014 19,127
2015 47,080
2016 37,156
2017 34,846
2018 30,468
2019 26,548
2020 21,785
2021 24,300
IS
2014 52,358
2015 46,430
2016 37,289
2017 26,482
2018 22,927
2019 14,920
2020 13,600
2021 20,519
ES
2014 72,508
2015 64,969
2016 58,299
2017 51,398
2018 48,482
2019 51,336
2020 43,292
2021 37,640
RC
Year sold
2014 1,922
2015 14,784
2016 11,165
2017 7,363
2018 3,358
2019 4,591
2020 3,808
2021 2,841
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-03-2021 at 11:58 AM.
#1412
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"It’s the best performing in its class…for the price. It’s the best equipped in its class…for the price."
is certainly conjecture & just opinion, not a fact.
Performance = has lost every performance test its been in based on pure objectively measured performance metrics. All the other words written about the car or any car for that matter are just opinion.
Best equipped for a price. = Could be wrong but I think the Honda Accord has equipment not available in the TLX/TLX-S line at any price.
#1413
Senior Moderator
Are they direct competitors? Let’s be honest, a FWD TLX has more in common with the ES than the RWD IS. It would be interesting to see what the FWD/SH-AWD split is, but someone who buys a FWD TLX was likely never cross shopping against the IS to begin with.
There’s also plenty of other reasons people buy Acura over Lexus. Sportiness is one aspect, but let’s not beat around the bush: price is a huge aspect. Acura owners are in general more price sensitive than Lexus owners. Household income tends to be lower, and the ATP tends to be lower. Even among enthusiasts here, we often qualify any statement about Acura with “for the price”. It’s the best performing in its class…for the price. It’s the best equipped in its class…for the price.
There’s also plenty of other reasons people buy Acura over Lexus. Sportiness is one aspect, but let’s not beat around the bush: price is a huge aspect. Acura owners are in general more price sensitive than Lexus owners. Household income tends to be lower, and the ATP tends to be lower. Even among enthusiasts here, we often qualify any statement about Acura with “for the price”. It’s the best performing in its class…for the price. It’s the best equipped in its class…for the price.
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WTF.Acura (11-04-2021)
#1414
A few years back I remember there was Acura training material available at http://acuralaunchtraining.com/ that included demographic information across their entire lineup. Unfortunately, it no longer looks to be up, but other than the RLX I remember the numbers being on the lower end of the segment.
Last edited by fiatlux; 11-03-2021 at 05:31 PM.
#1415
Moderator
Thread Starter
#1416
AZ Community Team
Yeah I agree that the statement that appears here a lot:
"It’s the best performing in its class…for the price. It’s the best equipped in its class…for the price."
is certainly conjecture & just opinion, not a fact.
Performance = has lost every performance test its been in based on pure objectively measured performance metrics. All the other words written about the car or any car for that matter are just opinion.
Best equipped for a price. = Could be wrong but I think the Honda Accord has equipment not available in the TLX/TLX-S line at any price.
"It’s the best performing in its class…for the price. It’s the best equipped in its class…for the price."
is certainly conjecture & just opinion, not a fact.
Performance = has lost every performance test its been in based on pure objectively measured performance metrics. All the other words written about the car or any car for that matter are just opinion.
Best equipped for a price. = Could be wrong but I think the Honda Accord has equipment not available in the TLX/TLX-S line at any price.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-type-s-drive/
https://www.caranddriver.com/mercedes-amg/c43
https://www.caranddriver.com/audi/s4
Know your data before making blanket statements
Last edited by Legend2TL; 11-04-2021 at 07:37 AM.
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WTF.Acura (11-04-2021)
#1417
AZ Community Team
The funny thing about cars - really smart people tend not to throw away money on fancy cars unless they have FU money. You know - the old millionaire next door idea where the guy drives a 5 year old Accord.I used to work for a guy who was worth several million easy and he wore old flannel shirts while driving a plain Ford truck.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 11-04-2021 at 07:55 AM.
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CheeseyPoofs McNut (11-04-2021)
#1418
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The funny thing about cars - really smart people tend not to throw away money on fancy cars unless they have FU money. You know - the old millionaire next door idea where the guy drives a 5 year old Accord. I used to work for a guy who was worth several million easy and he wore old flannel shirts while driving a plain Ford truck.
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#1419
Air Vice Marshal
The funny thing about cars - really smart people tend not to throw away money on fancy cars unless they have FU money. You know - the old millionaire next door idea where the guy drives a 5 year old Accord. I used to work for a guy who was worth several million easy and he wore old flannel shirts while driving a plain Ford truck.
I'm a car guy, always have been. But while I may spend money on "fancy" cars I tend to offset it by keeping them for very long times. I still have the Series 3 E-Type I bought new in 1974. My current daily driver is my '07 Type-S 6MT, which replaced a 1988 XJS V-12 Convertible. It will finally be replaced when the M550i arrives.
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CheeseyPoofs McNut (11-04-2021)
#1420
Burning Brakes
The funny thing about cars - really smart people tend not to throw away money on fancy cars unless they have FU money. You know - the old millionaire next door idea where the guy drives a 5 year old Accord. I used to work for a guy who was worth several million easy and he wore old flannel shirts while driving a plain Ford truck.
#1421
Intermediate
Yeah I agree that the statement that appears here a lot:
"It’s the best performing in its class…for the price. It’s the best equipped in its class…for the price."
is certainly conjecture & just opinion, not a fact.
Performance = has lost every performance test its been in based on pure objectively measured performance metrics. All the other words written about the car or any car for that matter are just opinion.
Best equipped for a price. = Could be wrong but I think the Honda Accord has equipment not available in the TLX/TLX-S line at any price.
"It’s the best performing in its class…for the price. It’s the best equipped in its class…for the price."
is certainly conjecture & just opinion, not a fact.
Performance = has lost every performance test its been in based on pure objectively measured performance metrics. All the other words written about the car or any car for that matter are just opinion.
Best equipped for a price. = Could be wrong but I think the Honda Accord has equipment not available in the TLX/TLX-S line at any price.
Where the TLX falls off is at the upper end of the model range. The A-Spec is a nice looking car, but a poser when it comes to real performance. I have one and it's "fine" but I get all of the criticisms directed at the car. The Type S is better but still falls short of the top competition. If someone is buying the car for the overall balance of looks and performance, the TLX is great but from a straight performance perspective, the upper end of the TLX range is a fail.
BTW, your comment about the Accord is kind of laughable. Nobody sits in an Accord and thinks the interior is equivalent to an Acura, Lexus or any other higher end car. When compared to the actual competition, the TLX is well equipped for the price. Those cars that other people love to brag about typically run in the mid 50's in price where the TLX A-Spec SH-AWD is still available for $45k if you qualify for the Conquest rebate. You can get a base TLX for under $40k if you can find one.
The thing that I found is that some of the competition that is so valued is very, very hard to come by. I was interested in the Genesis G70 3.3T but there was only one available in my area and they wanted $54k and I was able to buy my TLX A-Spec SH-AWD for $40,500. Say what you want about value....but I got a great deal on my car and it was the color and features I wanted.
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#1422
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Wrong, the Type-S beats the Lexus IS350 F Sport in most performance categories as well as better skidpad than C43 or S4.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-type-s-drive/
https://www.caranddriver.com/mercedes-amg/c43
https://www.caranddriver.com/audi/s4
Know your data before making blanket statements
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-type-s-drive/
https://www.caranddriver.com/mercedes-amg/c43
https://www.caranddriver.com/audi/s4
Know your data before making blanket statements
However, according to Lexus the IS series is not in their performance series of cars. Looks like a middle ground series like the BMW 330. Expect the Type-S might even manage to get a win in a few categories over it. 2 out of 11 is not all that great but will admit even though C&D said the 500 had the wrong tires a category with is a category win.
TLX-S
60 mph: 4.9 sec
100 mph: 12.6 sec
1/4-Mile: 13.6 sec @ 103 mph
130 mph: 24.2 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.3 sec.
Rolling Start, 5–60 mph: 5.5 sec
Top Gear, 30–50 mph: 3.3 sec
Top Gear, 50–70 mph: 4.5 sec
Top Speed (C/D est): 155 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 165 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 359 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft Skidpad: 0.96 g*
* Founding interesting the S did so well on the skid pad & so poorly on the road course. Guess it does much better in a steady state turn than in the normal transitions that take place on an actual on street or road course
C/D TEST RESULTS
IS 350
60 mph: 4.3 sec
100 mph: 10.4 sec
1/4-Mile: 12.8 sec @ 112 mph
130 mph: 17.5 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.3 sec.
Rolling Start, 5–60 mph: 4.7 sec
Top Gear, 30–50 mph: 3.0 sec
Top Gear, 50–70 mph: 3.3 sec
Top Speed (gov ltd): 149 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 159 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 320 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft Skidpad: 0.89
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-04-2021 at 07:42 PM.
#1423
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The funny thing about cars - really smart people tend not to throw away money on fancy cars unless they have FU money. You know - the old millionaire next door idea where the guy drives a 5 year old Accord. I used to work for a guy who was worth several million easy and he wore old flannel shirts while driving a plain Ford truck.
You want to save the gas just look at the number of high end cars sold annually. Expect most of the mega rich don't drive themselves & are driven in armored Mercedes & Suburban's with outrides in performance cars.
BTW being a millionaires ain't much of a big deal these days. Its currently estimated there are 12 million millionaire households in the US today. The US accounts for 41% of the global millionaires.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-04-2021 at 08:09 PM.
#1424
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That's a broad assumption, there are people who just enjoy spending their money on certain things and not others. For some it may be cars for others it may be shoes for others it may be watches. Yes you'll occasionally run into the guy who is rich that wears the same T shirt every day but most of them buy fancy cars, big houses and blow money on crazy crap because they like it.
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Kense (11-05-2021)
#1425
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Typo
C/D TEST RESULTS
IS 350
Should say
C/D TEST RESULTS
IS 500
C/D TEST RESULTS
IS 350
Should say
C/D TEST RESULTS
IS 500
#1426
AZ Community Team
Yeah well there is always a hall monitor to follow us with great input
However, according to Lexus the IS series is not in their performance series of cars. Looks like a middle ground series like the BMW 330. Expect the Type-S might even manage to get a win in a few categories over it. 2 out of 11 is not all that great but will admit even though C&D said the 500 had the wrong tires a category with is a category win.
....
However, according to Lexus the IS series is not in their performance series of cars. Looks like a middle ground series like the BMW 330. Expect the Type-S might even manage to get a win in a few categories over it. 2 out of 11 is not all that great but will admit even though C&D said the 500 had the wrong tires a category with is a category win.
....
When I'm wrong, I "man up" and admit it.
Again yet another statement from you is sorta wrong, the IS F-Sport is listed under Lexus's website performance webpage under "Performance", then click on "F-Sport"
F SPORT
Lexus F SPORT vehicles offer upgraded performance components honed on the track, like sport-tuned suspensions, limited-slip rear differentials and aggressive race-inspired styling that simply cannot be ignored.
Lexus F SPORT vehicles offer upgraded performance components honed on the track, like sport-tuned suspensions, limited-slip rear differentials and aggressive race-inspired styling that simply cannot be ignored.
Oh, and a Type-S ties a M340i for skidpad as well at C&D (0.96) , just more disproving your "lost every performance test" statement even more
Last edited by Legend2TL; 11-05-2021 at 09:11 AM.
#1427
AZ Community Team
#1428
AZ Community Team
That's a broad assumption, there are people who just enjoy spending their money on certain things and not others. For some it may be cars for others it may be shoes for others it may be watches. Yes you'll occasionally run into the guy who is rich that wears the same T shirt every day but most of them buy fancy cars, big houses and blow money on crazy crap because they like it.
Doubt much has changed since it's mid-90's characterization of wealthy people that were surveyed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door
Better to be a PAW than a UAW
#1429
And 100% agree on Acura being the winner of value. That's basically where its biggest advantage lies. It's also part of the reason we went with the RDX. We liked Honda (we've owned 4 between the two of us and loved them all), it was well priced, looked great and all ours were very reliable. I don't think I've regretted a car purchase more. To me, their quality has plummeted, or I'm more sensitive to this one since it has an Acura badge rather than a Honda one. Nah ... I literally can't remember my CR-V with nearly 270k miles with this many rattles. You know it's bad when I have a more relaxing drive taking my 20yr old American beater to work than a supposed premium car that's 2yrs old with 18k miles.
So, yea, value ... but that value comes with its compromises ... and at least to me and my own personal experience, it seems the cost-cutting impacted build quality substantially.
/dailyrant
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BEAR-AvHistory (11-05-2021)
#1430
AZ Community Team
#1431
Suzuka Master
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Nope, just a engineer fact checking the resident hater making foolish blanket statements and making excuses
When I'm wrong, I "man up" and admit it.
Again yet another statement from you is sorta wrong, the IS F-Sport is listed under Lexus's website performance webpage under "Performance", then click on "F-Sport"
When I'm wrong, I "man up" and admit it.
Again yet another statement from you is sorta wrong, the IS F-Sport is listed under Lexus's website performance webpage under "Performance", then click on "F-Sport"
BMW also sells a 4 cylinder 330i under the label M-Sport. They further define the performance versions as M340 & M3. Thing is Lexus like BMW defines in its headings what it is selling as performance cars RC/LC not mid level cars with various flavors & performance levels. You really trying to sell an ES F-Sport as a performance variant, seriously?
Lexus Car Lines
BMW 3 series Car Lines
Speaking of the M340, notice how BMW also separates the performance variant M340 from the 4 cylinder M-Sport on it web site.
Check out the TH 2021 Acura TLX TypeS//Priced to Fight video in this thread for comments at starting at 11:05 which include the IS-300 & BMW 330M-Sport. After the comments its just another drag race loss to Audi. Think TH's take is the same as the "haters" have been saying. Good car, nice looking, well equipped, but its not the performance car Acura is claiming it to be.
BTW I might suggest to win a road test you need to out point the other car at least thats how the magazines do their comparison tests. Picking nits here & there will not get the job done.
Apply some of that engineering skill to the numbers below & tell us who won the test.? Category wins or ties in BOLD
TLX-S
60 mph: 4.9 sec
100 mph: 12.6 sec
1/4-Mile: 13.6 sec @ 103 mph
130 mph: 24.2 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.3 sec.
Rolling Start, 5–60 mph: 5.5 sec
Top Gear, 30–50 mph: 3.3 sec
Top Gear, 50–70 mph: 4.5 sec
Top Speed (C/D est): 155 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 165 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 359 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft Skidpad: 0.96 g TIE *
C/D FUEL ECONOMY
Observed: 19 mpg
EPA FUEL ECONOMY
Combined/City/Highway: 21/19/24 mpg
* Found it interesting the S did so well on the skid pad & so poorly on the TH road course.
C/D TEST RESULTS:
M340
60 mph: 3.8 sec
100 mph: 9.1 sec
1/4 mile: 12.3 sec @ 115 mph
130 mph: 16.1 sec
150 mph: 24.2 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.3 sec.
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 4.7 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 2.1 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.6 sec
Top speed (governor limited): 156 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 155 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.96 g TIE
C/D FUEL ECONOMY
Observed: 27 mpg
75-mph highway driving: 33 mpg
EPA FUEL ECONOMY
Combined/City/Highway: 25/22/30 mpg
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-05-2021 at 01:13 PM.
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jwtarbaj (11-06-2021)
#1432
AZ Community Team
Then you should learn your lesson not to make statements like "lost every performance test" unless you know your facts resulting in spending less time writing lengthy retorts.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 11-05-2021 at 01:17 PM.
#1433
Air Vice Marshal
#1434
AZ Community Team
Yeah. Back when my daughter was show jumping horses I used to run into Jack Kent Cooke (former owner of the Redskins) at the saddlery. I was usually dressed in an old flannel shirt and driving a 20+ year old Ford station wagon.
I'm a car guy, always have been. But while I may spend money on "fancy" cars I tend to offset it by keeping them for very long times. I still have the Series 3 E-Type I bought new in 1974. My current daily driver is my '07 Type-S 6MT, which replaced a 1988 XJS V-12 Convertible. It will finally be replaced when the M550i arrives.
I'm a car guy, always have been. But while I may spend money on "fancy" cars I tend to offset it by keeping them for very long times. I still have the Series 3 E-Type I bought new in 1974. My current daily driver is my '07 Type-S 6MT, which replaced a 1988 XJS V-12 Convertible. It will finally be replaced when the M550i arrives.
No worries, that's what I thought you mean as well
Last edited by Legend2TL; 11-05-2021 at 01:44 PM.
#1435
Burning Brakes
It's not really a broad assumption. the author of the famous book "The Millionaire Next Door" gets into the lifestyle, spending and investment habits of millionaires.
Doubt much has changed since it's mid-90's characterization of wealthy people that were surveyed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door
Better to be a PAW than a UAW
Doubt much has changed since it's mid-90's characterization of wealthy people that were surveyed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door
Better to be a PAW than a UAW
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#1436
AZ Community Team
I live in the Bay Area surrounded by Silicon Valley, and all those Tech Millionaires may dress like crap but they are driving Lambo's and Ferrari's and live in Mansions. My wifes best friend works for Apple, is single and lives in a 5 Bedroom house in Atherton by her self and drives a Taycan.
The ones you notice, we don't know but I'm guessing many (majority?) don't drive Lambo's and Ferrari's. I know alot people at a variety of tech companies and startups, many drive nice vehicles but many drive some rather ordinary cars too.
YMMV
Last edited by Legend2TL; 11-05-2021 at 02:01 PM.
#1437
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The Global Wealth Report says that the total number of millionaires in the US is 20.27 million. The United States also added 2,251,000 new millionaires from 2019 to 2020 alone,
Its a different economy today from that of the mid 1990's when some studies were done. The demographics of who the 1995 millionaire is very different that that of who the 2021 millionaires are. No one knows the real number of millionaires who drive cheap cars, but it seems here many people seem to all know one that fits their narrative. Wonder if any of these guys know any millionaires that drive a car MSRP's over $90,000
BTW when you look at the wealthy is not A car but a number of cars. Not unusual to see a F-150 in a driveway with other bucks up cars & SUV's. Ofcourse the F-150 probably went for over $80,000.
Its a different economy today from that of the mid 1990's when some studies were done. The demographics of who the 1995 millionaire is very different that that of who the 2021 millionaires are. No one knows the real number of millionaires who drive cheap cars, but it seems here many people seem to all know one that fits their narrative. Wonder if any of these guys know any millionaires that drive a car MSRP's over $90,000
BTW when you look at the wealthy is not A car but a number of cars. Not unusual to see a F-150 in a driveway with other bucks up cars & SUV's. Ofcourse the F-150 probably went for over $80,000.
#1438
Instructor
The core case for the TLX vs. its competition is what it offers for the money, at least that's how I look at it. Yes, the TLX loses out in a number of objective performance tests. However, it also costs less.
Since BMW is being discussed so much, I did a quick look at some stock in my area. I'll be comparing MSRP because it's really the best apples-to-apples comparison that can be done on pricing as I'm sure there's some out there that can negotiate a hell of a deal or some incentives may come into play, etc., etc. Anyway, for the sake of simplicity: We're not factoring in a negotiated price or incentives. Just looking at MSRP.
TLX SH-AWD w/Tech Package - this is what I picked up on lease about 2 months ago. MSRP (including destination): ~$45k
Local inventory for a BMW 330i xDrive with about as close to the same features I could find: $51k.
That's a $6k difference, ~13% more than the TLX. The TLX is slower, it's heavier, and it's admittedly not as dynamic. It also gets worse gas mileage. It will not perform as well on a track. However, for everyday driving and the occasional blast on a curvy road or brisk acceleration on an on-ramp, I think it gets the job done really well. It's also very comfortable. Really, with better tires, I think the TLX would be about perfect for me right now.
Anyway, the question many who are cross shopping these cars will end up asking themselves is whether the BMW worth it at $6k more. For some it might be, and that's great. For others, it might not. That price difference though is what I think many are getting at when they say the Acura offers better overall value. The performance may be *close enough* for driving on public roads for many. Traffic and traffic lights are the great equalizer on such roads anyway.
The pricing gap between a TLX-S and a BMW M340i xDrive is even greater at ~$8k when loaded with close to equivalent features (again, doing my best to compare local inventory). Same question will probably be asked: Is the price difference worth it? Personally, anything that can hit 0-60 in ~5s is plenty for me on public roads. Anything much faster, while very fun, just isn't going to be used nearly as often in a safe manner for the roads and traffic I usually drive. Despite my TLX being slower than that, it still feels fast enough for occasional fun. Would I turn down a faster car if it were given to me? No. Do I want to pay for that performance now? Also no.
So again, yes, the competitors objectively perform better. However, they are also more expensive. Anyone pursuing pure performance without as much concern for cost should *not* go for Acura. However, someone trying find more balance between cost vs. performance vs. features? I think Acura makes makes a stronger case there.
I've had a 2009 BMW 328i xDrive Coupe and a 2011 BMW 335i xDrive Sedan. I look back at my time with those cars fondly (mostly). My younger brother also has an M235i xDrive which I've enjoyed driving immensely. BMW, quite simply, makes cars that drive better than anything else I've owned. Including my current TLX. So while I am a fan of BMWs and really appreciate the cars they build, I've become quite a fan of Acura lately and appreciate the cars they build too.
I also personally give Acura the edge on styling, especially when compared to those bucktoothed BMWs (the rest of the BMW lineup looks really good to me though, except maybe the massive-grilled 7-series and X7). I think the 5-series might be the best-looking sedan in their lineup right now.
Anyway, just my $0.02. Sorry, brevity isn't a strong suit of mine.
Since BMW is being discussed so much, I did a quick look at some stock in my area. I'll be comparing MSRP because it's really the best apples-to-apples comparison that can be done on pricing as I'm sure there's some out there that can negotiate a hell of a deal or some incentives may come into play, etc., etc. Anyway, for the sake of simplicity: We're not factoring in a negotiated price or incentives. Just looking at MSRP.
TLX SH-AWD w/Tech Package - this is what I picked up on lease about 2 months ago. MSRP (including destination): ~$45k
Local inventory for a BMW 330i xDrive with about as close to the same features I could find: $51k.
That's a $6k difference, ~13% more than the TLX. The TLX is slower, it's heavier, and it's admittedly not as dynamic. It also gets worse gas mileage. It will not perform as well on a track. However, for everyday driving and the occasional blast on a curvy road or brisk acceleration on an on-ramp, I think it gets the job done really well. It's also very comfortable. Really, with better tires, I think the TLX would be about perfect for me right now.
Anyway, the question many who are cross shopping these cars will end up asking themselves is whether the BMW worth it at $6k more. For some it might be, and that's great. For others, it might not. That price difference though is what I think many are getting at when they say the Acura offers better overall value. The performance may be *close enough* for driving on public roads for many. Traffic and traffic lights are the great equalizer on such roads anyway.
The pricing gap between a TLX-S and a BMW M340i xDrive is even greater at ~$8k when loaded with close to equivalent features (again, doing my best to compare local inventory). Same question will probably be asked: Is the price difference worth it? Personally, anything that can hit 0-60 in ~5s is plenty for me on public roads. Anything much faster, while very fun, just isn't going to be used nearly as often in a safe manner for the roads and traffic I usually drive. Despite my TLX being slower than that, it still feels fast enough for occasional fun. Would I turn down a faster car if it were given to me? No. Do I want to pay for that performance now? Also no.
So again, yes, the competitors objectively perform better. However, they are also more expensive. Anyone pursuing pure performance without as much concern for cost should *not* go for Acura. However, someone trying find more balance between cost vs. performance vs. features? I think Acura makes makes a stronger case there.
I've had a 2009 BMW 328i xDrive Coupe and a 2011 BMW 335i xDrive Sedan. I look back at my time with those cars fondly (mostly). My younger brother also has an M235i xDrive which I've enjoyed driving immensely. BMW, quite simply, makes cars that drive better than anything else I've owned. Including my current TLX. So while I am a fan of BMWs and really appreciate the cars they build, I've become quite a fan of Acura lately and appreciate the cars they build too.
I also personally give Acura the edge on styling, especially when compared to those bucktoothed BMWs (the rest of the BMW lineup looks really good to me though, except maybe the massive-grilled 7-series and X7). I think the 5-series might be the best-looking sedan in their lineup right now.
Anyway, just my $0.02. Sorry, brevity isn't a strong suit of mine.
Last edited by norsairius; 11-05-2021 at 02:56 PM.
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#1439
Burning Brakes
Have you ever been here? The majority have nice cars and houses. You may be talking about Old rich people I don't know. The Millionaires and Billionaires out here are mostly younger people who like buying nice things. There's over 200,000 Millionaires and Billionaires out here and probably another million or so people making over $300,000. Their beater commute car may be a Porche Cayenne GTS and their weekend cars are McLaren's or something I see it all the time .
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#1440
Suzuka Master
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Have you ever been here? The majority have nice cars and houses. You may be talking about Old rich people I don't know. The Millionaires and Billionaires out here are mostly younger people who like buying nice things. There's over 200,000 Millionaires and Billionaires out here and probably another million or so people making over $300,000. Their beater commute car may be a Porche Cayenne GTS and their weekend cars are McLaren's or something I see it all the time .
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-05-2021 at 06:21 PM.