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Since this vs the competition, I am wondering if Toyota will ever mate the new 3.4L TT from the Tundra to Camry, IS, Supra, and others (with different tunes of course).
Since this vs the competition, I am wondering if Toyota will ever mate the new 3.4L TT from the Tundra to Camry, IS, Supra, and others (with different tunes of course).
That's way too much power for a FWD Camry, but people are expecting this to be used in the IS-F (if there is one). It's not exactly a new engine; it's been used in the LS500 since 2017.
That's way too much power for a FWD Camry, but people are expecting this to be used in the IS-F (if there is one). It's not exactly a new engine; it's been used in the LS500 since 2017.
I forget where I read it, but supposedly that engine won't fit in the IS's engine bay (source: trust me, it's the internet). Perhaps an ES500 that's AWD? Heehee
[QUOTE=fiatlux;16764632]That's way too much power for a FWD Camry, but people are expecting this to be used in the IS-F (if there is one). It's not exactly a new engine; it's been used in the LS500 since 2017.[/QUOTE
Don't see it in a FWD version. AWD would work well in any car they can stuff it into. Also don't see it in the Supra. Supra is a Z4 with a coupe body on it. The engine sizing of the B58 is the same as the S58 - 502BHP ready to go off the dealers lot, before anyone tunes it.
That's way too much power for a FWD Camry, but people are expecting this to be used in the IS-F (if there is one). It's not exactly a new engine; it's been used in the LS500 since 2017.[/QUOTE
Don't see it in a FWD version. AWD would work well in any car they can stuff it into. Also don't see it in the Supra. Supra is a Z4 with a coupe body on it. The engine sizing of the B58 is the same as the S58 - 502BHP ready to go off the dealers lot, before anyone tunes it.
Yeah its funny how things work out. The '70's gas shortage slammed the door ending the Muscle Car Golden Age with $0.60 a gallon gas. Was forecast 1 we would run out of gas, 2 the glaciers would arrive in Miami, 3 we would never see high horsepower cars off the dealers floor ever again. High Horsepower was 350BHP+
Yeah its funny how things work out. The '70's gas shortage slammed the door ending the Muscle Car Golden Age with $0.60 a gallon gas. Was forecast 1 we would run out of gas, 2 the glaciers would arrive in Miami, 3 we would never see high horsepower cars off the dealers floor ever again. High Horsepower was 350BHP+
LOL, maybe a bit higher than that. During my high school era, I lived in the Birmingham/Bloomfield area of the Detroit suburbs, yeah, with wealthy auto executives living on almost every block. The family across the street was headed by a Mopar executive and he had a 1966 Charger and a 1970 Superbird, both equipped with the legendary Hemi, which if I recall correctly, was very conservatively rated at 425BHP.
LOL, maybe a bit higher than that. During my high school era, I lived in the Birmingham/Bloomfield area of the Detroit suburbs, yeah, with wealthy auto executives living on almost every block. The family across the street was headed by a Mopar executive and he had a 1966 Charger and a 1970 Superbird, both equipped with the legendary Hemi, which if I recall correctly, was very conservatively rated at 425BHP.
Agree, my '67 StingRay L71 427 3X2 was factory rated @ 435BHP. I Said 350+ because my '66 GTO Tri-Power "XS" code Ram Air (dealer installed) with self installed Royal Bobcat package was factory rated @ 360BHP. The Original 1970 LT-1 crate engine that was also used in my StingRay & swapped into a 34 FORD 3 window coupe was rated @ 370BHP before modifications. So generally engines factory listed as "HO" started around 350BHP. Most numbers were just bogus advertising copy that reflected marketing (GM racing bans) & NHRA class differences.
Agree, my '67 StingRay L71 427 3X2 was factory rated @ 435BHP. I Said 350+ because my '66 GTO Tri-Power "XS" code Ram Air (dealer installed) with self installed Royal Bobcat package was factory rated @ 360BHP. The Original 1970 LT-1 crate engine that was also used in my StingRay & swapped into a 34 FORD 3 window coupe was rated @ 370BHP before modifications. So generally engines factory listed as "HO" started around 350BHP. Most numbers were just bogus advertising copy that reflected marketing (GM racing bans) & NHRA class differences.
Back in the sixties manufactures advertised SAE gross HP, measured at the flywheel with no engine accessories, water pump, air cleaner or other power using attachments and using free flowing exhaust headers. Sometime in the early seventies they had to switch to SAE net HP for advertising. SAE Net requires testing the engines "as installed" with full accessories, emissions equipment, exhaust manifolds and pipes, air cleaners, etc.
All those 400+ engines suddenly became 350+.
With the energy crisis and all the emissions controls it seemed like the HP races were over.
But times changed. I just ordered a new sedan that is the same size and weight as the new Type-S, but has 523HP and a 3.6 sec 0-60, and that's not a huge number by today's standards when versions of the same car have well over 600hp.
I just ordered a new sedan that is the same size and weight as the new Type-S, but has 523HP and a 3.6 sec 0-60, and that's not a huge number by today's standards when versions of the same car have well over 600hp.
Expect your car is closer to 550/570 in real life. They tend to underrate these engines @ the factory. BMS has the M4C 503BHP are doing 505 at the wheels & have a 600WHP+ tune for $800. BMW factory tune M4CS is looking like 550+ rated by them. Really?
Back in the sixties manufactures advertised SAE gross HP, measured at the flywheel with no engine accessories, water pump, air cleaner or other power using attachments and using free flowing exhaust headers. Sometime in the early seventies they had to switch to SAE net HP for advertising. SAE Net requires testing the engines "as installed" with full accessories, emissions equipment, exhaust manifolds and pipes, air cleaners, etc.
All those 400+ engines suddenly became 350+.
I think you missed my point; with an engine like the Hemi, even if you applied all of the modern testing criteria to a factory stock Hemi, it would still be more than 500BHP.
I think you missed my point; with an engine like the Hemi, even if you applied all of the modern testing criteria to a factory stock Hemi, it would still be more than 500BHP.
I understand what you are saying the 425BHP L88 was over 550BHP . They were not the norm. You could get a Plymouth Fury Convertible for $3100. A HEMI would add $900 to that. I bought the 427 StingRay coupe for $4200 after negotiation. A L88 true power about 560BHP was a $1500 option. They sold about 20 cars. By comparison my 427/435 Tri-Power was $437 or about 10% over the base price. They sold over 3,000.
LOL, the Hemi might well be an exception, most experts believe a factory engine would be well north of 500BHP even using modern measurement standards.
And those "experts" would be wrong. I was actually a Chrysler/Plymouth mechanic in those days and worked on them. A 1969 Hemi Road Runner was advertised as 425hp. Like most muscle cars of the day it was very light, just under 3,500 pounds. That's over 720 lbs lighter that a Type-S! (As a comparison, my '67 Barracuda Fastback was 3,060 lbs on the scale at the dragstrip.) Car&Driver included the Hemi as one of the quickest muscle cars of the Sixties with its 0-60 time of 5.1 seconds.
The Hemi was an impressive engine, and it certainly was amenable to large HP increases with relatively cheap mods (headers, better intake manifold, cam and carburation). Basic speed shop engineering at the time. But out of the box in a production car it wasn't all that fast by today's standards.
Are ventilated front seats and wireless charging really not available features on the G20?
There is wireless charging not sure why they left that out other than to keep trying to deceive people, I have wireless charging in mine. Ventilated seats are an option in Canada and overseas but not here for some stupid reason.
The fact that they highlight their much maligned (though I personally like it) infotainment system as an advantage over touchscreen just shows how delusional they are. Also the whole 10sp being an advantage over 8sp because ... more gears. This is why I mock the Honda crowd ... because you know they eat this sort of crap up. You're comparing it to a ZF8, one of the best, if not the best automatic transmissions available today.
And those "experts" would be wrong. I was actually a Chrysler/Plymouth mechanic in those days and worked on them. A 1969 Hemi Road Runner was advertised as 425hp. Like most muscle cars of the day it was very light, just under 3,500 pounds. That's over 720 lbs lighter that a Type-S! (As a comparison, my '67 Barracuda Fastback was 3,060 lbs on the scale at the dragstrip.) Car&Driver included the Hemi as one of the quickest muscle cars of the Sixties with its 0-60 time of 5.1 seconds.
The Hemi was an impressive engine, and it certainly was amenable to large HP increases with relatively cheap mods (headers, better intake manifold, cam and carburation). Basic speed shop engineering at the time. But out of the box in a production car it wasn't all that fast by today's standards.
Think you need to separate the engine from the suspension. Typical tires off the factory floor were for example 1969 Satellite 460 Hemi V8 - F70-15 or FR70-15 or P215/70R15, 1968 Belvedere 426 Hemi V8 - F70-15 or FR70-15 or P215/70R15, 1965 Coronet 426 Hemi Engine - 775-14 or P205/75R14. Bias ply tires or radials.
By comparison our 3 quick cars run Z4M40i P255/40R19, rear: P275/40R19 non run flat, M4C 275/35ZR19, rear 285/30ZR20 non run flat and, COBRA 275/40ZR17 DOT legal track and rear 315/35ZR17 DOT legal track. Think if you put the COBRA's tires on a period Dodge/Plymouth HEMI the times would fall like a stone. The primitive suspensions did nothing to help either.
Never had a Dodge or Plymouth & am more familiar with Chevy engines. The L88 got rated at 430BHP or 5BHP less than a run of the mill 435BHP 427/3X2
The engine was rated at 430 horsepower at 5,200 rpm by GM. The engine actually did make 430 horsepower at 5,200 rpm, but GM neglected to mention that its power peak was around 6,500 rpm where it made over 500 horsepower. A stock recreation of an L88 engine made 557 horsepower. BMW used similar weasel wording in rating its engines.
Today I saw a Genesis G70 in black and TLX A-SPEC in black next to each other at the traffic light. Wow! the TLX looks so much better than the G70. Actually the TLX looks much upscale and oh boy it's WIDE!!!
The fact that they highlight their much maligned (though I personally like it) infotainment system as an advantage over touchscreen just shows how delusional they are. Also the whole 10sp being an advantage over 8sp because ... more gears. This is why I mock the Honda crowd ... because you know they eat this sort of crap up. You're comparing it to a ZF8, one of the best, if not the best automatic transmissions available today.
There is wireless chargingnot sure why they left that out other than to keep trying to deceive people, I have wireless charging in mine. Ventilated seats are an option in Canada and overseas but not here for some stupid reason.
Nope, you're wrong no wireless charging on some 2022 BMW models/
Unfortunately, the wireless smartphone charger has been removed from the options list and Convenience package on many 2022 models due to the ongoing chip shortage, BMW confirmed.
^ Apparently the chip shortage has affected wireless charging option in the G20 and some other BMW's
Some early production G20 series 22's have wireless charging. They eventually ran out of chips. While running out they diverted any remaining supplies to the upper car lines. Don't think the 22 M4C will have it when it shows up next month. I did have it in the 2022 M740 lender last week.
Not too big of a deal, have it in the 2020 Z4 but the phone really gets hot so I plug it in instead during the summer. Had the phone shut down on an overheat with the roof down on a very hot mid summer day.
The 3 series as far as I know does not offer vented seats just heated. Have vented not cooled, heated & neck warmers in the M4C. BMW can get weird with how they setup the different car lines.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 10-22-2021 at 02:54 PM.
Are ventilated front seats and wireless charging really not available features on the G20?
You would be surprised what's standard on the TLX that's not available on the C-Class/IS/3-Series/A4 but 99% of the narrative here has been about where the TLX falls short instead of where it has an edge.
The bone stock m340i xD costs $4,000 more than the Type-S and is not that well equipped: 18' wheels, no adaptive dampers, no heated front seats, fake leather, basic audio system, no parking sensors, none of the fancy driving aids, no wireless charging, etc. If you want any color other than white it'll cost $500-1,500 (note Acura also charges $500 for Apex Blue/Tiger Eye/Phantom Pearl). That's not to say that the BMW isn't a good value. If you really care about performance the 3-series is the king of the class and an unbeatable value. Although as a BMW fan if I'm spending that much on 3-series I'm getting an M3.
Acura has never been the fastest, best performing, or most luxurious. The entire modus operandi of Acura is just hitting that sweet spot of good handling, reliability, performance, features, and styling for a decent price.
You would be surprised what's standard on the TLX that's not available on the C-Class/IS/3-Series/A4 but 99% of the narrative here has been about where the TLX falls short instead of where it has an edge.
The bone stock m340i xD costs $4,000 more than the Type-S and is not that well equipped: 18' wheels, no adaptive dampers, no heated front seats, fake leather, basic audio system, no parking sensors, none of the fancy driving aids, no wireless charging, etc. If you want any color other than white it'll cost $500-1,500 (note Acura also charges $500 for Apex Blue/Tiger Eye/Phantom Pearl). That's not to say that the BMW isn't a good value. If you really care about performance the 3-series is the king of the class and an unbeatable value. Although as a BMW fan if I'm spending that much on 3-series I'm getting an M3.
Acura has never been the fastest, best performing, or most luxurious. The entire modus operandi of Acura is just hitting that sweet spot of good handling, reliability, performance, features, and styling for a decent price.
The 3G was very competitive with the German cars. Was quicker than most with the 6MT. Handled pretty well as the 6MT had Brembo's. LSD, upgraded suspension & summer tires. Interior 6 of one half dozen of the other. Will stand by my opinion with ownership of both a 2004 330Ci ZHP 6MT vs 2006 TL 6MT Summer tires at the same time. TL's performance went south when BMW went turbo in 2007.
As for the "I would just get an M3/4" today its different than the 12%-16% total discounts & rebates I had gotten through 2006 - 2020. Car shortage has BMW selling at close to MSRP with a few thousand loyalty discount on the M4C AWD. Using MSRP numbers a M340iX AWD with good equipment would go for $62,870. An M3C AWD base $76,900 equipped $80,550. Think $14,030 or $17,680 are very big bites for anyone who thinks the M340iX is too expensive at $62,870 equipped.
I would've added the Jaguar XE, but that just got discontinued as per today's news.
The Jag sedans have been on life support with "do not resuscitate" on their chart for a couple of years. As a long time (since 1974) Jag owner I mourn the death of a once great brand with some really beautiful cars. In recent years they killed the V-8 sedans, then the V-6 and left nothing that could realistically be called sporty in the sedan segment.
The Jag sedans have been on life support with "do not resuscitate" on their chart for a couple of years. As a long time (since 1974) Jag owner I mourn the death of a once great brand with some really beautiful cars. In recent years they killed the V-8 sedans, then the V-6 and left nothing that could realistically be called sporty in the sedan segment.
Seems like we have shared a number of car brands. When I lived in England my company cars were Jaguar 4.0L Sovereign's. Nicest IMHO was a 1992 with Burgundy paint & Dove gray interior . Most likely the best interior of any car I have used on a regular basis. Think the sedans died a while back but did not know they were dead. Started when FORD put Kitty Cats on Contours & Lincolns in the early 2000's.
The Jag sedans have been on life support with "do not resuscitate" on their chart for a couple of years. As a long time (since 1974) Jag owner I mourn the death of a once great brand with some really beautiful cars. In recent years they killed the V-8 sedans, then the V-6 and left nothing that could realistically be called sporty in the sedan segment.
I had high hopes for the new tlx but I am a little disappointed when compared to the competition. I am just tired of Acura always playing catch up to other brands, Honda has the money and the resources to produce world class luxury cars but they continue to neglect the Acura line. There is no reason the second generation tlx shouldn't come with a digital dash, even a Hyundai Elantra has that... also the cars interior is pretty yet its not elegant.
I had high hopes for the new tlx but I am a little disappointed when compared to the competition. I am just tired of Acura always playing catch up to other brands, Honda has the money and the resources to produce world class luxury cars but they continue to neglect the Acura line. There is no reason the second generation tlx shouldn't come with a digital dash, even a Hyundai Elantra has that... also the cars interior is pretty yet its not elegant.
I had high hopes for the new tlx but I am a little disappointed when compared to the competition. I am just tired of Acura always playing catch up to other brands, Honda has the money and the resources to produce world class luxury cars but they continue to neglect the Acura line. There is no reason the second generation tlx shouldn't come with a digital dash, even a Hyundai Elantra has that... also the cars interior is pretty yet its not elegant.
I test drove a Genesis 2022 G70 3.3 Sports Prestige before buying my Type-S. To be honest I could have gone with either, but these are my thoughts on the differences.
Exterior:
To me the Type-S has a much more sportier appearance. The G70 looks more luxury oriented.
Interior:
I really loved the interior of the G70 with the quilted leather pattern. Interior was notably more cramped. The Type-S interior has grown on me - especially in the Orchid color.
Power:
I test drove both cars in a couple of days. Although I'm sure the G70 is faster, It was not as noticeable as I thought it would be. The exhaust of the Type-S is much nicer.
Handling:
I'm coming from a 2019 Civic Si and I thought the Type-S was much better. Test drove an all-season tire setup on the Type-S vs an all-wheel drive G70. I found the handling on the Type-S to be much more direct and fun. With the performance wheel option on the Type-S, the gap is even wider.
Just my thoughts on both cars. I think they are both really good, but decided to go with the Acura because of car availability and handling.
That's because of the Chip Shortage and cars being built to order. It's not like it wasn't offered prior to the Pandemic. Some cars aren't even being allowed to add the Harmon Kardon sound system.
I had high hopes for the new tlx but I am a little disappointed when compared to the competition. I am just tired of Acura always playing catch up to other brands, Honda has the money and the resources to produce world class luxury cars but they continue to neglect the Acura line. There is no reason the second generation tlx shouldn't come with a digital dash, even a Hyundai Elantra has that... also the cars interior is pretty yet its not elegant.
The brand absolutely made enough tactical development errors on the 2G TLX to relegate it to an 'also ran' offering in the segment. BTW, you can substitute Hyundai Elantra with Honda Civic....which sort of makes it a little more glaring. Recently, checked out a G70 3.3T (which stickered in the immediate ballpark of my A-Spec) and it's definitely a 'nicer' place to be than my A-Spec. That said, I still haven't registered any regrets. (I'm sure that'll come as a disappointment to some but dgaf.)
10-15-2021, 02:07 PM
They tend to underrate these engines @ the factory. BMS has the M4C 503BHP are doing 505 at the wheels & have a 600WHP+ tune for $800. BMW factory tune M4CS is looking like 550+ rated by them. Really?
dgaf.) 
