richii0207

But the question was what numbers would a car have to meet or exceed to be considered a performance car by your standards?

ELIN

A performance car's stats simply has to fall within the average of the cars in its class that it's competing with for the categories I listed (M340i, S4, etc). I'm pretty sure the Type S is bringing up the rear for braking and 0-60.

Otherwise, it's just pure marketing (like when Fiatlux lampooned Acura marketing by photoshopping the TLX vs a fighter jet!).

MarcoTLX

oh what community was this? I know that thread must’ve got real interesting after those posts

richii0207

It was in a TLX community outside AZ. It got quiet real quick lol. Many including myself found it amusing, RIP ego.

richii0207

So you wouldn’t consider the IS500, G70, or the stinger GT as performances cars either?
Would this same class include the CT4V BW, S4, S60 T8 Polestar, and M340i ?

fiatlux

Those are largely sport sedans, and not true performance cars, with the CT4V BW as the sole performance car of the bunch.

Here's a good barometer: in stock form can the car last a full track session, and can it hold its own against other track-focused cars? If not, it is not a performance car. And trust me, only the BW from that list has any chance of doing so.

ELIN

Not sure what would lead you to say that as I don't really have a history about talking about these other cars. I've collected data on 3 metrics for a handful of the mentioned cars and here are the results:

1) I would have thought the Stinger GT was a performance car before my analysis but other than acceleration, everything else was atrocious. Any car that takes 12 ft longer to brake than my non-performance X3 and worse grip than my prior 2.0 TLX can't be considered a "peformance car".
2) You don't need Blackwing money to better the Type S. The CT4 listed is a $46,515 2020 CT4 450T.
3) As expected, the Type S is bringing up the rear for braking (at least in this cohort) and is over one standard deviation away from the average. The S4, susprisingly, is not that much better.
4) Despite the authoritative braking, one could argue to kick the IS500 out of the group due to competing only with my X3 for acceleration and grip.

All data from caranddriver.com and 0-60 times include 1 ft rollout.

I'm open to being wrong so please tell me where my logic fails me.

bilirubin

I would add 5-60 times to that spreadsheet. 0-60 isn't the most useful metric as it doesn't take turbo-lag into account.

mike03a3

That's the part where he said

ELIN

While cataloging the 5-60 numbers, I realized I didn't have the right numbers for the G70 (had pulled numbers from the 2.0 side). The updated numbers put it next to the Stinger GT2 as "pretenders".

Also, I didn't have the right CT4 listed. The numbers come from the $52,165 2020 CT4-V and not the $46,515 450T. Apologies!

Disappointing that the Korean competition is not quite there in athleticism. I expect my performance car to stop when I need it to!

fiatlux

Stopping distance is very much a function of the weight of the car and the type of tires than the braking system itself. In the case of the Stinger GT2, the reason the stopping distance is so long is because the tester had the standard all-season tires rather than summer tires. I would not put very much weight onto that metric because it can vary so much based on the tire choice.

Case in point, when C&D tested the 2018 Stinger GT equipped with PS4s, stopping distance was 156ft: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...t-test-review/

richii0207

The MSRP of a CT4V BW is $60k with dealerships near me selling for as low as $62k. I’d consider it within the same class as the latter I mentioned earlier but with higher tier performance.

bilirubin

I don't quite follow.

richii0207

Don’t forget to add the fact that the Stinger GT2 AWD also weighs nearly 4200 lbs as well!

ELIN

You can always put on better tires just like nearly any car can be tuned. I’m only concerned with how it comes to the dealer in stock condition since that’s how most of us receive cars. Do Stingers not have a summer tire option at the dealer?

richii0207

But when it’s time to change tires, one may opt for the performance tires instead of all-seasons or run flats although I’m definitely looking forward to the PS5S as the PS4S has been phenomenal.

fiatlux

They do but the one C&D got for the AWD model did not come equipped with summers, probably because they got it in the fall/winter. You can't expect them to give magazines a set of every wheel/tire combination. That’s why you can’t just blindly use the reported numbers; even the article mentioned that the braking and grip were much better on summers when they tested it a couple years earlier.

dmski

Put the spreadsheets away. LMAO. Test drive them all and buy what appeals to you the most. The End. You can close this thread now.

sombasol

Id also argue that if you remove the M340i from the equation the TLX would fall in to the averages just fine (without actually doing the math lol) also adding the price as tested would be interesting and watch the M340i fall off the far side of that bridge. Ive said this a thousand times on here before, the Acura is exactly what it should be for the price, the problem is the expectation was built that it was somehow going to be better for less which has never been the case. Youre going to get what you pay for in everything now a days, no one is giving away anything for free. If the type S was going to have 60 more HP to line up with the M340i, the bean counters would say, “stressing the engine that much more is going to increase expected warrenty claims by X amount and the cost of actually physically building the car to handle these increases to the drivetrain and car (turbo, tranny, shawd, axels, brakes) to have reliability be to Hondas standards will be Y, the amount we need to increase the price is Z to cover this cost”. “Just crank the boost” is never an option for a company that cares about reliability. If the car was $10g more i would not have bought it so im glad they aimed at the price point they did.

richii0207

Just thought I’d add this since some think the CT4V Blackwing costs more than it actually does.

fiatlux

The problem is that once you remove the M340i from the equation, none of the other cars are really performance focused, but the TLX is supposed to be.

The main issue is that the TLX is a tweener that doesn't tween well. It's size and mass is that of a midsize, but practically speaking it's a compact. If the TLX had the interior space befitting of its exterior size, then it would be (more favorably) compared against other cars in the midsize segment, and frankly there wouldn't be anything else in that segment that's even close. Price-wise it would compete with the A6 45, E350, 530i, etc. and it would destroy all of them. Or alternatively, it can be pitted against the A6 55, E450, and 540xi, but it would still be a blow out win from the driving dynamics perspective and still undercut those cars. Sure, it wouldn't be as competitive from a luxury perspective playing in that class, but from a performance perspective it'd be a winner and that's something I think that's much more aligned with how Acura is trying to market the car. It can be viewed as a 5-series fighter that trades luxury for performance, or it could be viewed as a 3-series fighter that trades a little bit of performance for utility. If Acura had built that car, I'd have one in my driveway right now. I want a car developed and optimized by engineers, not one compromised by designers.

wizardjjr

https://www.hotcars.com/living-with-...-s-for-a-year/

Not sure if this one was posted. This one is another favorable review. I have had my Type S for just over a year now. I'm still in love. It's so fun to drive. The speed and handling is top tier and enjoyable compared to all my previous gen TL and other Acuras over the years. My only complaint is the lack of a 360 camera. It would make parking her much easier as she is very long and wide. My radar detector acts as the HUD but I would've probably liked having the stock HUD as well.

ELIN

I didn't find the review insightful at all, especially after a full year of ownership. Sounds like AI could have written something similar or someone simply collecting anecdotal evidence from the internet.


I did find the following amusing:

"This occurred after we came across an owner in their TLX A-Spec, who had unfortunately ran out of fuel on a busy freeway."

I was blasted for having fuel anxiety with my A-Spec. Apparently this A-Spec owner didn't have enough! LOL!

frainc

You got to look at your gas readout, if it's on E or so and go drive around then run out of fuel then, you are a jerk!

bilirubin

The video is in Japanese but it looks like they imported a Canadian 2022 TLX Type S into Japan and selling it for about $65k USD...

Tony Pac

I watched this the other day yes 100% Canadian as it has 360 camera. I wish I understood Japanese.

Over the weekend, I watched this:
Again, no idea what he is saying but one interesting observation. This is not just an American or Canadian version but Kuwaiti one, at 1:25 seconds you will see the gas info is stated in Arabic.

jmontalb

This is the best comment in the whole thread. I just drove my pre-owned 2021 A-Spec home yesterday. For me it was the best option of all the cars I test drove which included an IS 350, G70, and an Arteon. Definitely slower than the G70 and the IS 350, but it was fast enough for me. My final two were the IS350 and the TLX, but the TLX just felt more comfortable which was far more important than a few tenths of a second in a 0 to 60 run.

​​​​​​​I must have watched hundreds of video reviews on these cars, but nothing beats a few test drives.

Tony Pac

Absolutely!

Reviews are there for general info and fun. Reviewers are not going to drive the car for you, neither write a cheque of $50K. At the end of the day, it's the buyers responsibility to test drive, compare and feel comfortable to pay that kind of money and enjoy his or her daily commute. The issue is that most people did not even sit inside the TLX and they say it's small...they haven't drive one for a few KMs or miles, and they say it's slow. They never touched the infotainment and they say it's difficult to use.

Based on reviews and dealer visits, I was thinking the two screens in 2020 MDX are horrible and distracting. In fact, I was wrong. The two screens are very practical and I love it. One again, Acura was ahead of the game and came up with two screens. However, the issue was the two screens aren't consistent in terms of resolution and size.

I had this discussion with a friend about the gear selector that Acura opted in and he was telling me BMW will never do such thing. This is horrible and he will never buy an Acura. Bingo! Check the new BMW's gear selector. Horrible! At least Acura has a logic to it.

Tony Pac

I am sure this was posted in the past but thought to share again with existent and future buyers. A beautiful 8 min video that explains the new TLX and TLX TYPE S! The main take away from this video is "Emotional connection" which is so true....TLX is so special in terms of design and driver's connection with the car that words cannot describe. You have to sit and experience it!

Tony Pac

A great article about TLX TYPE S:

"If you’re looking for something that comes with its own charismatic personality, the Acura TLX Type S is definitely a keeper."
https://www.yorkregion.com/community...ra-tlx-type-s/

Tony Pac

Worth sharing it here as well for future and current owners: https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-co...-us-government

Tony Pac

Another great read for potential buyers! The article points out all the pros and cons.

"The 2023 Acura TLX Type S is a rare treat in an increasingly insipid automotive world. Its drivetrain is rich in character, its handling impressive, and its steering genuinely engaging, making this an antidote for drivers desperate for some zeal in their daily commute."
https://www.autotrader.ca/editorial/...type-s-review/

ELIN

I'm on Bimmerpost and members rarely talk about Acuras. Joining MBWORLD soon and expect the same over there (will report back if different).

Legend2TL

+1, read through it and yes nice honest review.

Tony Pac

Yes, very precise and honest.

mike03a3

I have to second this. I'm on both bimmerpost and bimmerfest now and rarely see Acura mentioned in any way. If they compare at all it's usually against MB or Audi, but mostly all the talk seems to revolve about modifications. Coding the many changes possible to the firmware is a big topic, as are tuning and draggy bragging.

Tony Pac

I have never been in any other forums but this is refreshing to hear from you and Elin. I know this is a open platform and everyone has an opinion, but sometimes people come here just for the sake of commenting. That said, the forum is much better now and enjoyable.

Tony Pac

A must read for current owners and people in the market shopping for one:

https://www.topspeed.com/the-most-un...acura-of-2023/

Tony Pac

Another amazing review for the potential buyers and of course current owners: https://www.autoguide.com/auto/manuf...rated-44607649

enjoy!

fiatlux

Sounds like this guy never drove the car

This is patently false. The car is low-revving (redline is a scant 6200RPMs), and it runs out of steam north of 5000RPMs. There are some good reasons to buy the car (driving dynamics, handling, steering, etc.), but the engine is one of the worst parts about the car; one would buy it in spite of the engine, not because of it.