g37guy01

Maybe that BMW scored very high in JD Power apeal has something to do with their success. Missed the point, while its true reviews of BMW have been all over the place, I dont buy vehicles based on mag reviews. Their sales figures indicate it seems, a lot of other people don't either.

SeismicGuy

This brings up an interesting experience I had back in the late 1980s or early 1990s when I had my 1986 BMW 325es. I was once again at the local dealer to try and resolve one of the never ending problems I had with the vehicle (basically this ownership experience and similar experiences of other friends and acquaintances who had/have BMW continue to steer me away from BMW).

Anyway I recall that Lexus and Infiniti had recently come on the market to threaten BMW and even Lincoln was making some inroads. I was alone in the office for a while and I noticed a booklet on the guy's desk not for public consumption that was essentially a primer to BMW sales and service folks that instructed them how to respond to a potential customer considering one of those other vehicles. In essence it was a bunch of talking points where each one concluded that the BMW was the better vehicle.

But the thing I took away was how nervous BMW must have been (I think they were starting to see some decline in sales to Lexus, especially). But frankly that is probably the last time BMW needed to be nervous for a long time.

KeithL

G never dethroned the BMW 3, it did get great reviews as the best non-3 wanna be and surpassed it in some areas in some reviews. I also think Infiniti is really taking a mis-step right now. First the model name changes, I was in the dealership getting my oil change and the sales manager saw the me and said hi, so I asked when can they order the 14 Q70? He response was no you mean the Q80, I had to correct him on Infiniti's new model names. They will have a bumpy year as people adjust. They could have left the names alone in the US as they were established and used the new naming globally where they did not have a market yet.

Edward'TLS

It has been well published that the new TLX will be smaller than the current 4G TL in size. Therefore, don't expect the TLX will be as spacious as the current TL.

Glashub

I was goofing with you.

Glashub

Bavarian Marketing Works.

JM2010 SH-AWD

I believe it will track the 2013 Accord. Smaller outside, but the same or even slightly larger inside.

KeithL

I would not say that, we know they are trimming the overall dimensions, but they will find a way to minimize that shrinkage on the inside. They did fine with the 13 Accord.

SSFTSX

Actually there is nothing special about IS and ATS performance. Honda Accord with less hp , non DI engine and non performance tires have similar performance. so it is not that BMW is faster.

g37guy01

Aww and I was so looking forward to a serious, dignified conversation.

Edward'TLS

The new 2014 MDX is a couple inches narrower than the outgoing model.

In the 3G MDX forum, there are members there already complaining the lesser room and narrower front seats on the 2014 MDX.

weather

^^ Maybe its the government imposing restrictions on car companies to force people to lose weight! *lol* It is so frustrating to always be told you are too slim or must be anorexic when you look around and 80% of the people around you are considered obese by the classic definition. Luckily, I don't have a weight problem and can fit comfortably in any cars so even the TLX does shrink, I'll fit comfortably I am sure

BEAR-AvHistory

Its because BMW typically underrates its engines while most of the other manufactures tend to publish the best hp they can produce within test allowances.

They know the low end torque will move the cars quickly from rest compared to most similar ones so they don't really get into the rated HP game.

3 versions of the basic N54 300hp motor have tested at 3 different actual horsepower outputs.

On the BMW marketing. I think they have broken the image code. In each series they have a car or cars that will appeal to performance drivers while the mass market can buy a similar looking car that still performs well but is not so costly or edgy.

They are now selling 10K 3 series a month in the US & most are second level performance versions.

docboy

The problem I have with BMW is the N54 engine and its HPFP failures. I've heard reports even after the redesign of the twin turbo (at least in the 3 series), HPFP issues persist. No go for me, even if its covered under warranty. Being stranded on the freeway without reliable transportation is a deal breaker; even if it costs me only a few hours away from the office, it compromises my availability to my patients and that's a no-no.

g37guy01

Last I looked the 335 wasn't a recommended vehicle...neither was the TL SHAWD however.

docboy

Says who? If you are referring to Consumer Reports, I don't have CR in front of me, but US News on the TL: "Great reliability rating."

US News on the 3 Series on reliability: "Low reliability score"

BEAR-AvHistory

Depends if you are buying new or not. Early N54's had bad pumps but the base N54 went out of production for the 335i in 2010 when the N55 was introduced. The modified N54 from 2011 & up in the 335is/1M/Z4-35is has a solid record with the new version HPFP. I have over 22K miles @ 400whp on mine.

The current 335i/135i/135is has the N55 engine which does not appear to have any issues with the HPFP.

g37guy01

Yep...CR. This is a great example of cherry picking a specific source. Not saying by any stretch of the imagination that a BMW is more reliable than an Acura...but these reviews, surveys, blogs etc...all measure different things.

docboy

The N54 also had bad fuel injectors, causing limp mode as well. My research shows that the HPFP was redesigned for all F30s and post-March 2012 E92/E93s. So, some N55 cars do have the old design since the N55 first came out in 2009.

IMHO still too early to tell how durable the N55 engine is. Maybe your 335is is the good son, but at this point the 335 is still a crap shoot. Only time will tell.

The recent N55 needs to be proven reliable measured over a time span of years, not months, before I would reconsider the 335/535 as my next DD.

The only thing we are discussing here is reliability, I (or you) did not mention any other "different things." I'm not knocking the 3 series; it's a driver's car, at least before BMW introduced its EPS; its hydraulic steering was a benchmark for road feel. I'm just pointing out the 335 is far from reliable, and its crap design causes limp mode and risks one stranded on the road. Big no-no in my book.

The 4G TL SH-AWD is not perfect and has its own flaws like any other make, but it won't leave you stranded on the road if the speaker blows out, or if the sunroof squeaks, or if the torque convertor goes bad.

TeamAcura

IMO, turbo cars are not good for everyday driving. Too many moving parts and puts a lot of stress on the engine. Especially if you do a lot of stop and go traffic. I'd much prefer super charged cars instead for forced induction or just naturally aspirated engines like the 4G.

SeismicGuy

Totally agree here. I have noticed the recent trend of putting turbos on 4-bangers or small sixes and squeezing out bunches of power from small displacement. On the one hand this is perhaps a hat-tip to the technology now available but I have to think that pushing those small engines to the max cannot be as good for reliability as a larger displacement normally aspirated six.

g37guy01

The key is making sure the manufacturers maintenance schedule is followed. A turbo will last longer with clean oil. My 05 XT has been free of defects till 110k save for a dang window motor.

Paul2007

MY dealer told me that the TLX would be out next year and that it will go back to 2008 size. Also three choices of engines will be available.

mondster

Not sure about the 2008 size since spy shots show that it is still comparable to the 4g in size but a bit smaller. As many have said, it will probably be similar to the new accord in size. I can see the 3 engines though. 4 banger, 3.5 fwd and 3.7 shawd....

KeithL

I don't see a 3.7 yet. I see I4, V6 and I4-Hybrid

mondster

true... considering the mdx used the same engine on both the fwd and awd. i just hope they boost the power a little on the shawd TLX to make up for.the added weight

KeithL

I do not expect the TLX to have any more HP then the RLX.

Edward'TLS

Even the flagship RLX loses the 3.7L-V6, so there is absolutely no chance that the TLX will retain the 3.7L-V6.

docboy

If rumors are true of the TLX having the same interior dimensions of the 3G TL and using a "lesser" engine, something tells me the 4G TL SH-AWD is going to be something of a even more rare commodity and an even better value/bargain, esp the 6MT. I could be wrong, but just a hunch...

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

But Honda still hasn't have a fix for some of the 3.7L-V6 engines, as used on the 4G AWD TL, that are burning excessive amount of engine oil, just like those oil-burning engines from the Audi's.

SilverJ

Still waiting for Acura to come out with a TL that was as thrilling as the 3rd Gen. I kinda liked the 4th gen but not enough to buy it. Some of you guys have done great jobs with your after market stuff though.

BEAR-AvHistory

Again its as compared to what. There are literally 10's of thousands of 3 series running WHP increases of 30% to 50%+ up into the 550whp range without reports of catastrophic failures.

The top end cars are at 725whp (830bhp) without ever having to open the engine. This might suggest a reasonably strong engine in its stock form.

On reliability its really is all about what you want to try to match as issues like JD Powers does. Fuel pump issues from 3 or 4 years ago or dead Honda transmissions still occurring both of which will leave you broken down but problem one would be a lot cheaper & quicker to repair. The 3.7's are still burning oil, will not leave you at the side of the road but its not the sign of a good design.

My TL 6MT had 3rd & Rev replaced under a TSB (Honda denied for years there was a problem) & my son-in-laws AT was replaced after the class action suit forced Honda to step up on its auto trans faulty design.

In the current threads here I think the 3's, Audi’s & Hyundai etc. issues are well over played & the Honda’s well underplayed. Its unfortunately typical here when someone posts a moving on thread it only takes a few posts before the seemly required “your new X will explode” one is made.

In the case of BMW vs. TL when one car is selling 10K units a month & the other less than 3K you might expect to hear of more issues since people tend to be vocal about problems with their cars. Many of the current issues with BMW 3's on the forums are from teens driving second & third hand 2006-2008 models. I tend to ignore most of the surveys since they will equate a cup holder they don't like with an automatic trans not doing its thing.

In my own personal experience 4 BMW's from 2004 to 2013, three still in use, with a max of 125K miles, minimum of 6K miles their combined problems reported to the dealer, recalls & TSB’s is about equal to my one TL 6MT that was sold around 60?K miles.

CR: Long a sports sedan benchmark, the redesigned BMW 3-Series is impressively fuel-efficient, quick and luxurious. Handling is enjoyable. It's the Consumer Reports 2013 Top Pick in the Sports Sedan category.

If you're in the market for a luxury compact SUV, 'Consumer Reports' recommends the BMW X3, not its newer rival, the Range Rover Evoque.

The TL is a pleasant car, but doesn't excel in this class. Its high point is its powertrain: the slick and punchy 3.5-liter V6, teamed with a six-speed automatic, returns a good 24 mpg overall. We found the handling taut and the ride compliant and firm, with good isolation from bumps. But the vague steering is mostly devoid of feedback. Road noise stands out in the otherwise quiet interior. The front seats are well shaped and supportive, but the rear seat is tight. The well-finished interior is cluttered with buttons, even when not equipped with the optional navigation system. An AWD model with a 3.7-liter V6 and tauter suspension is also available.

Glashub

German auto workers are the highest paid in the world. German manufacturers have to make cars that feel good to the touch, look sumptuous, and drive among the best. They have to compete on price/value with the Japanese, Americans (now) and the Koreans. Each pays their workers significantly less. Thinking economically -- where do you think the cuts are made so that the Germans can be anywhere near competitive?

Hint -- a senior exec at MB was quoted as saying they had to use cheaper glues and use glue more often to stay competitive.

You'll never convince me that a German car will worth a damn after 5 years. But I'd take it to the bank that I could still be driving an Acura or Lexus 10 years later. And I'd still find a big market for the car when I wanted to sell it -- and great resale.

Good luck selling a 5-6 year old BMW. The words pretty much out about the 5 years obsolescence. (Hey maybe that's why to customize leases so just about anyone can drive a BMW -- for 3 years).

I live in LA -- the town that has been completely branded by BMW -- there are no older BMW's that I can see but I do see old Acuras and Hondas all of the time.

The question I have is where do old BMW's go to die. They're like squirrels -- they just disappear.

Shoot2Thrill

My three TL cars cost me way less than my first and last BMW..Further, I had two of the TL while I had a BMW. Just my real world experience.

BMW forum post after I sold the BMW = 0. Most of my BMW post sand searches are trying to fix stupid ass issues of which there are plenty.



Where do BMW cars go to die? I really ask this question myself.

You really don't see old ones on the road because they are obscenely uneconomical to take care and 99% of what you do see looks like garbage.

Looking forward to the see more release information on the NSX today!

Glashub

I thought I should define old. For a German car 5-6 years is old. It's ready for Valhalla.

g37guy01

Along the same lines as Hyundai/Kia uses cheaper materials(under the covers and sometimes not under the covers) relative to the competition in order to be able to produce vehicles that appear to be a better value than the competition.

Of course what really matters, is the sales.

TeamAcura

Actually it's a known issue that Honda motors burn excessive oil. They are aware of it as well. Check the CBR forums. From the 250cc to 1000cc. Their motorcycles burn 1 quart every 1000 miles. So it's not just the 3.7 motor. Knock on wood but mine seems to be burning minimal. I check occasionally.

On a side note, I get a kick seeing posts defending their beloved brands on a different forum. With all due respect but its kinda pathetic.

BEAR-AvHistory

My 2004 330Ci 6MT ZHP cost about $42,000 new. Sold it this year to CarMax for $12,000 to use as front money for the 135is. Tell me why I should be unhappy with 25% residual value after 10 years?

Glashub

You're cherry picking -- answer my questions 1st. Also, factor in you paid 42K in 2004 dollars and got 12K in 2013 dollars. Also wasn't that one of the good years for a BMW? (One has to pick universally accepted good years with BMW).

Edward'TLS

If we just focus on production vehicle motors, which has more relevance to this Acurazine forum.

My family has owned the following Honda/Acura vehicles :

Accord : '84, '88, '91, '94, '06 (both I4 & V6)
Integra : '90
TL : '96, '02, '06, '12 (2)

Except for the two 2012 3.7L-V6 AWD TL's, none of the other Honda/Acura vehicles that my family has owned requires a single drop of engine oil in between oil changes.

The 3.7L-V6 is the only Honda engine that has a known issue of burning engine oil.

https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-problems-fixes-297/oil-consumption-784028/
(Oil consumption)

https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-problems-fixes-297/2009-sh-knocking-completely-out-oil-886541/
(2009 SH Knocking-Completely Out of Oil)

https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-problems-fixes-297/2012-tl-sh-awd-burning-oil-since-day-1-a-849991/
(2012 TL SH-AWD burning oil since Day 1)