Colin

Yes, the irony is that the guy was referring to the 4G TL, which, (I'm assuming) you're saying was responsible for the 50% loss in customers over the previous generation.

People seem to forget that the 4G TL had a star crossed life. Launched into the worst economy in decades, Acura immediately stopped production. Does anyone remember that between ~Mar 2009 and ~June there was ZERO production? We couldn't order any cars even if we wanted to. There was no 'end date' given so we couldn't even tell customers when a car they requested would be built or delivered. It also moved up in price while the economy was moving down.

Just when they got the styling right with an early MMC, the earthquake/tsunami happened. More indefinite production delays. They finally get this sorted out and the Thai flooding happens. All this is now behind us and we're looking at the end of production as a new Accord is out and the new car readied.

I'm not saying the 4G TL didn't have it's own design related issues. But there was a lot more to the overall sales decline than many will remember. According to internet protocol, someone will surely post that this is just 'excuses' by a 'fanboi' but these events did happen and it's not fair to ignore them.

BEAR-AvHistory

Its hard to do a could have, should have, might have been after the fact because we just don’t know. But given that the annual sales numbers from start to finish for the 4G model run are pretty much a flat line, (no pun intended) which probably did not vary by much over 2000 units a year, might suggest it was a lot more than just outside factors that lost the customers.

boe_d

Do you have a photo of a recent acura tl where they got the styling right?

boe_d

OK, if I worked for Acura and found out they actually did have focus groups I'd fire the people in charge of the focus groups and the people who hired those people and the department that accepted their results. Then I'd try to make up for my mean spiritedness and drop the focus group back at the asylum from which they had been abducted. There is NO WAY the 4G TL in its current or original form should have made it to production. It doesn't track with anyone I know and their sales numbers reflect it. You can put all the lipstick on it you like - recession, floods, whatever but I doubt you'll find that the Lexus ES or IS suffered quite so much due to external forces. The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves.

winstrolvtec

Let's just keep it straight that the TL lost 50% of it's sales from peak 3G years, not all of them and not from it's average, and it's not an Acura total loss of 50% at this time, just the model. Again, I do not think that you can squarely blame the loss to outside factors on it's own, clearly there are somethings with the car in itself that are also responsible but let's not downplay the outside factors either.

Some cars suffered and some still do, some cars didn't or don't and many for very different reasons, hard to put a finger on everything but don't forget the top selling 3 series is still down from peak years, 30% in the same way we draw up the math for the TL. That's despite one model generation change over the TL and the fact that BMW has actually set a US record in 2012 for it's best sales ever and finally eclipsed MB and Lexus for the top spot. Plus I don't remember any grumblings with either recent 3 series that even remotely resemble those of this gen's TL yet the wallets have also spoken.

Like many other brands Acura has not fully recovered either, still down about 20% from it's peak but they are just about to complete a full cycle of new model intros so it is somewhat cyclic and that may close the gap. And let's not forget for all the criticism that they placed 4th in 2012 behind BMW, MB and Lexus. Ironically, that's also how they ranked when the TL was at it's best with the 3G.

Actually, I think Caddy may have been ahead by a decent margin back then so it seems they are in a better position now despite all of this. Sort of a disclaimer but these ranking do vary depending on whether one includes Buick or not, most sources do not, so I didn't, not intended to be a slight. Back to Acura, all and all, not bad for a demographic specific niche based product line and a sedan lineup that is supposedly one of the worst around. And it's not the top 3 brands entire line that sets them apart in terms of overall sales, it's really only a matter of 1-2 models that really do well making up 30%-50+% of the brands total sales.

Most of the time and considering the majority, it's not even or barely a $40k vehicle or variant that's driving those additional sales and it's not the latest cutting edge features or motor tech, as they are usually not even included in the version or optioned for, that do the trick, nor is it a V8, not even a thought to these folks plus it's not available in those cases, nor is it even necessarily RWD, most in those cases don't know or truly understand the difference. However, it is an accessible and pretentious enough luxury and price point that mainstream buyers stretch their dollar a little bit more for just to have particular brand vehicle parked in their driveway.

Not much more, not much less but that's the reality. I'm not knocking it either, good for those brands and those individuals, and that doesn't necessarily exclude Acura from that either but generally, you are getting the extra tech and the superior engine in the competing Acura model for that same money that folks always seem to clamor about yet people often decide against that still, I'm sure for reasons that have to do with the vehicles themselves but also for reasons that have nothing to do with any of that. Sometimes these points just need to be remembered and/or considered but it's really another topic for another time so I'll leave it at that.

MtnMan

Just had to chime in on this one as I'm currently in the market and looking at many different options including the 3 series and upcoming 4 series coupe. In my research I've come across a ton of bad feedback amongst the BMW diehards. But before addressing that, here is a list of things I'm considering:

• New Vette Stingray (fast in a straight line, screams mid life crisis)
• New 2015 Mustang (hopefully a spring release, had a '66 as a kid)
• BMW 3 Series M Sport sedan
• BMW 4 Series M Sport coupe (fall release)
• Mercedes E350 coupe, perhaps AMG63
• Audi S5 coupe / S4 sedan
• Acura TLX sedan (hopefully a spring release), but would love a coupe

In '95 I started selling new Acuras and over the course of four years became a big fan. I exited the business, but since then I've owned Integra LS & GS-R sedans, a 2.5TL, and a 3.2TL. I currently drive an '04 MDX that I'll be giving to my son next summer when he gets his license.

In spending a ton of time in the BMW focused forums it is clear that NOBODY is happy with the current BMW approach of softening the ride but most importantly the electronic steering. Most of these folks are up in arms with the direction BMW is taking - "away from what made a BMW a BMW: the ultimate driving machine". They also lament that there has been more focus on the luxury and tech side of things, even though they appreciate the improvement in interiors.

So I'd say despite the BMW sales figures, the established customer base isn't happy. More people are jumping on the beemer train, but the diehards go to great lengths in post sale modifications to "return" the ride to its original intent.

That said, I doubt I'd notice the primary gripe which is the loss of steering feedback they all hate due to the electronic steering. It is mentioned that the Porsche implementation is the best, but the BMW one trails the feel of the (gulp) new Lexus entry. Go read the latest C&D comparo between the IS350 F Sport, 335i M Sport, and ATS 3.6.

At any rate, as a longtime Acura fan I'm hoping that info regarding the TLX is released in the fall along with some near production photos. If it turns out to be something similar to the 3G and/or TSX with good power and SH-AWD I'm in...

SeismicGuy

Lets see--you are comparing a bunch of cars in the $60k price range or upwards and then throw in the Acura. That's like me saying I can't decide between an Aston Martin, a Lamborghini, or the Cadillac CTS.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

Note the poster has put the Acura TLX at the very bottom of his list, which means he's not really serious about the TLX and just might as well chuck it in the list for fun. After all, this is a forum about Acura vehicles.

winstrolvtec

A big distinction I will make is that you normally see die hard members complain about new changes good or bad anyway, in the case of this TL, there was a clearly expressed hatred for the design, not just from the TL enthusiasts, and at least as far as the interent is/was concerned, plus most major publications had something to say along those lines and often times it would lose out in professional and popular opinion mostly for that subjective reasoning.

Whereas, the 3 series might have been slighted in recent years for getting softer, etc, etc the overall popular and professional opinion of the vehicle never waivered. It didn't lose any badge appeal and was still often regarded as the best/better vehicle in it's class as far as sports and enthusiast driving is concered.

I agree that perhaps that is starting to wear off with the lastest iteration but the 3 series being down 30% from 2007 has little to nothing to do with the new generation but the last. The same 3 series that set the recent record high also set the most recent low, pointing to outside factors. Outside factors that should not only exist for one brand but potentially others as well.

Plus these current insignificant grumblings won't matter, the new model has actually stregthened it's sales and as I said above, the reason the 3 series makes up and will continue to make up nearly 40% of all BMW sales in the states is because of what the majority thinks, not what the die hard 3 serie or BMW enthusiast thinks.

SeismicGuy

Or the OP just wants us to know he can afford much more expensive vehicles but is an "average Joe" since he is also presumably considering the Acura.

MtnMan

Or perhaps, I'm expecting to load up a TLX and spend around $55k and get more bang for my buck when compared to the track record of other vehicles in the list...

You can spec out any of those cars for between $50-60k. The '14 TL I spec'd is about $50k. I think it is likely there may be a small bump upwards for a new model, maybe not. I also have considered the loaded Accord and G37x.

It is at the bottom of the list because the information for all of the other vehicles save the stang is well established. We know nothing of the TLX, and I only recently discovered it was coming.

Wow - love the presumptions. If I said I could afford the M6 but choose to spend less money would you think less of me? After all, I do have a couple of kids to put through college and a secure retirement to worry about.

Good job 'ol chap. Keep on chuckin

MtnMan

I agree to a point. But a lot of the professional drivers/reviewers have been critical of the BMW direction as of late. Never is a strong word. There are plenty of published sources that do state a decline in opinion. Perhaps not to the same extent as the styling of the 4G TL, which I think was your main point.

Exactly - the reason for the sales is the move away from what the vocal few on the net complain about. The 3 series has become a better vehicle for the majority, while slowly losing its "soul" as the ultimate driving machine. I was just noting that all has not been quiet on the western front with regards to the 3 and 5 series. Professionals and customer base alike have complained, and loudly.

But that aside, I agree with the sentiment that most share here regarding the TLX release being of significant importance for Acura. Assuming it goes on sale prior to next summer it most definitely will be on my list of must drives before making a decision.

SeismicGuy

Just pulling your leg But I cannot imagine you went to say the Corvette Forum and posted a thread starting with:

"I am considering a soon-to-be-released Acura TLX but am also considering the BMW 3 Series, BMW 4 Series, Mercedes. . ., Audi. . ., and also the new C7--what do you think"?

The list just seems incongruous and largely apples-to-oranges. Similarly seems odd to plan on loading up a TLX to the point of spending $55K. If you get into that price threshold it would seem to make more sense to go with a brand that has earned that price point.

MtnMan

Consider my leg pulled! And to be fair, I didn't ask anyone here "what do you think", I was offering context to my post.

It is absolutely apples to oranges...and that was my point. Not every potential TLX buyer has narrowed themselves down to a specific segment of "pseudo sports/luxury sedan between $39k-42k". And therefore, the Acura styling flubs matter immensely. I qualify as the mid life crisis dude who flirts with the new Stingray, but my prudent side tells me Acura has always been the best value and never lets me down.

I really wouldn't mind loading up the new TLX and paying a premium. The warped logic: if I go with the TLX it will be a purchase and I'll likely keep the thing for 10 years like many of my other vehicles. If I went German or crazy coupe I'd lease for 36-39 months. Maybe I'm an oddball...

I just love to see how quickly people get pegged on forums...I'm also passionate about recording studios and home theaters. Those folks aren't nearly as crazy as car folks (except when it comes to soundproofing ).

If Acura offered SH-AWD in the V6 TSX I'd not even be here...I'd be driving, even if they publicly announced it was the last model year. Any shrinks in the house?

SeismicGuy

Here's my advice for what it's worth. If you are in mid-life mode and don't have kids and don't have to worry about a wife who might think you are nuts and have never had a Corvette, then by all means run don't walk to the nearest Corvette dealer and get one. Basically what I did when I was in my mid-40's and the son went off to college.

It is truly a unique vehicle being constructed of fiberglass and a bona fide American icon. All of the other vehicles are just cars but everyone should have the opportunity once in their life of owning a Corvette--end of story!

weather

MtnMan...Very few great posts here and well articulated. I can see the reasoning behind your list and although it does cover a wide range of vehicles, I often have been in the same situation so I can relate. Sometime, we feel like getting a true sports car and sometime, we want a performance sedan, and then sometime we just want something that can ofter about 85% of the sports car, 85% of of the sports sedan and something 85% more reliable and 40% cheaper I am fortunate to be at a stage in my life where I can afford some very fine cars but like you, I am very cost conscious and I believe in the law of minimum return. By that I mean, sure, I have listen to home speakers that cost 8000$ a pair and they sound good, but worth the extra few thousands than my Monitor Audios....probably but worth it, my ears can't really convince my wallet to do it

Bottom line, welcome to Acurazine and hope you become a TLX owner, you seem you would be a great contributor to our forum. Well composed and managed to stay very respectful despite a few tomatoes thrown at you

MtnMan

Thanks - and my wife said a Stingray is fine...even though we have both 7 and 16 years olds.

BEAR-AvHistory

Never had a mid life crises but have had Corvettes for a little over half my driving life & they are special in there own way. Just two thoughts. MB just announced a $30K car for the ‘14 model year so things will get more interesting in the market place.

Back to Corvettes my long term one was a StingRay & I like the looks of the new convertible. Expect it will come down to the StingRay, Z435is or the M4 turbo.

MtnMan

Thanks - and yes I've auditioned many speakers that don't justify the extra expense. Perhaps if only I had those Golden Ears...the same applies to 4k displays. When I sit 16' from my 155" screen in the living room I just don't see pixels, even at 720p.

While traveling in Italy a couple of years ago with my wife and dear friends they gave me the nickname "Erico, el cheapo, el suave". I value...well, value.

Thank you for the warm welcome.

MtnMan

Yes! I've considered that MB CLA (I think)...would like to see it in person.

NC? Spent some time in Garner, Fuquay-Varina, Cary, etc. Beautiful country, nice people. That is where my love of Acuras commenced - Leith Acura. I'll never forget ripping through the NC countryside in an NSX. I had the pleasure of driving model years 91, 92, and 93 down winding and hilly country roads (GM wouldn't let the new 94 off the showroom floor except to bring it into the shop).

If the Stingray can manage the nimble characteristics of the original NSX I'd be hard pressed to say no. But if the TLX proves to be a premier sports/luxury sedan my prudent side might win.

BEAR-AvHistory

Had an NXS for a while in England in the early 90's only it was a Honda The Honda dealer in Gerrards Cross where I live seemed to always have one around in the front window during the 90's, not sure how many he sold.

Memory can dim but IIMO the NSX would not stand up against the new StingRay or the outgoing generation. Turned nice but does not have all that much grunt off the corners compared to the Chevy. It was a great car in its day but all things move on.

Looking at some track records at Streets of Willow, one of the tracks that has lap records published for the NSX, its listed #48. Excluding the Z06/ZR-1 for obvious reasons the last generation Corvette GS is #17. The current press leaks suggest the SingRay with the Z-51 package ran a 2:51.78 lap time around Virginia International Raceway’s 4.1-mile Grand Course configuration. The NC chapter of BMWUSA does its drivers schools there & its a really great track.

C&D also does its annual Lightning Laps on this course so you can see where it fits in. To be fair a pro was driving the 2014 while LL is driven by the magazine guys.

As for the TLX I don't see anything at this point to think Honda is trying to be a contender in the Sport Sedan arena with its current marketing direction. Also really doubt you will see a TLX in the mid $50's

Stew4HD

That reminds me of the grief I over at Club Lexus for daring to say that the TL was anywhere near the same class as the GS. One guy there was very offended! I nearly got booted off the forum for telling him that he's a snob!

SeismicGuy

If you really want to see snobs try the BMW forum. Not only do those guys dislike any other autos, I found they couldn't even stand other BMW owners. I spent about 10 minutes on a couple of BMW forums back in 2008 when I was considering a BMW and that was enough for me.

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree, kind of reminds me of the TL vs TL-S & TL vs SHAWD posts here.

Remember being told I bought a TL instead of a TLS because I could not afford to "step up" to the Type S.

My reply about the price spread between them really pissed off a number of people, more than I usually do.

meatball1080

I couldn't have said it any better myself, that was quite possibly the most fun car I've driven, granted I'm young and still haven't had that many. My TSX was very fun to well... have fun with. Welcome aboard MtnMan

mondster

lol. glad you pissed them.off. funny how people act like theyre big shots cause of the car theyre driving. for all we know, the reason they can "afford" their cars is cause they live in a studio with 10 other dudes, and a 72 month car note.

meatball1080

True story, I know someone like that. He had a 2011 M3 and thought he was the man. He lived with his parents. When they told him it was time to grow up and get a place of his own because he was 30 he had to get rid of the BMW and now drives a Kia Forte, lol. He'd always laugh about my Acura and say how much better his M3 was, and I'd tell him laugh all you want, I like my car and I own my house and I'm a year younger than you. That'd always shut him up.

Colin

In a backhanded sort of way, the flat sales numbers are somewhat telling. Normally there is a bit of a Bell Curve to sales, starting off slow as production ramps up, peaking in year 2 or 3 and then tapering off as a new model approaches. Something dampened early sales and something else puffed up end of model sales (most likely the additional incentives).

Anyway, I've certainly acknowledged that the relative failure of the 4G probably had many factors, not the least of which was the increase in base price and ascendency of the TSX in size and content. Another factor could be a move (as with all of America) to SUVs. I've lost count of how many repeat sedan buyers I've had move to RDXs or MDXs as their family grows. Thus Acura themselves haven't lost those customers, only the model (TL or TSX) did. Without an entry level car like the Integra, there haven't been a steady stream of 'upgraders' to TSXs and TLs as in years past to replace those moving to SUVs.

SeismicGuy

Although I have noticed quite a few facelift 4G TL's (post-2011)--they are pretty abundant around my area. However I am amazed at how many TSX I see daily.

Colin

Interestingly this is another factor. There is appears to be a closer kinship between the 2G TSX and 4G TL than there was between the 1G TSX and 3G TL. There have been many switches between the two within the last 5 years. They appear to be stealing or at least sharing sales at this point.

atruedsgb

Well whenever it's released, I hope Acura knocks it out of the park. I test drove a '13 MT S4 this weekend...juuust in case.

Interesting tidbit - the Audi dealership had a 'special road' on which they take S-model test drivers, to push the Quattro.

reddogTL

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1085445_2015-acura-tlx-spy-shots



Headlights look like RLX/MDX. Side profile looks like current gen TL. The rest is too heavy camo'd.

types1fan

Looks smaller than the current model

yooin14

I like wide taillights. They also moved position of license plate back to the top. These two changes are much safer move in terms of car design in my opinion.

reddogTL

I think they lost their way with the 4th gen. They need to infuse "Luxury Sports Sedan" back into the TL(TLX). That's what made the 3rd gen a great car. Competition is cut throat, there's very little margin for error.

Interestingly, it looks like there's a vertical center piece going up the middle of the grill. That's a new addition.

TeamAcura

Hidden tailpipes...

potmilkz

oh lord.. led drl's.....

H_CAR

Old news...

aIRpeACE

iTrader: (2)

thanks. but it has been posted.

reddogTL

Motorauthority just posted that today...