Inaccurate

Absolutely. Priority-one is first checking material compatibility. This is a well-used link on my computer. Even my nitrous nozzle is stainless steel.



Cole-Parmer Chemical Resistance Database (click here)









Thanks Bert. I was unaware that the vented cap was visually different other than looking for the weep hole.


Agree about the vendor supporting pure methanol. This is one of the reasons that I don't like Snow. Snow is very shy regarding pure methanol.

AIS and DevilsOwn do fully support pure methanol in an upfront, welcoming manner.


Below is from AIS -







Below is from DevilsOwn -









Thanks for the input Josh !


Just to point out a typo. Did you mean to say if the nozzle is *lower* than the tank ?




How is his health? Is he still around? Ouch! Here we are worrying about a minuscule amounts of methanol fumes. And, he was swimming in the fumes.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

^yes I meant lower.

If I was closer to jersey then I would go buy him dinner also lol

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

What's this costing? When I called Alkycontrol about a kit for the supercharger I thought he said $600. I am leaning toward the AEM kit at the moment.

I hate cars

He's alive and well. I have a good nose for this stuff. I can smell meth and nitrous very well after it goes through the combustion process, something I learned from racing. But on this Mercedes there were no signs that it was leaking besides the tank draining so quickly. No eyes watering, smells, sickness, or euphoria lol. I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing. Now that I'm thinking a little more, he went to the hospital a while back from passing out for absolutely no reason. He uses no drugs, alcohol, extremely healthy, etc. They never did find the reason and said mold was a possibility. Liver results were terrible and he has never had a single beer in his life. This is a far stretch of course and I doubt methanol can cause liver issues, probably not related but I thought I should throw this out there.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

That's about right.

Inaccurate

IHC,

Interesting. Were these two events (methonal leak and passing-out) close to the same time frame? Before he switched to water, was he using pure alky or 50/50 mixture?

Inaccurate

Here is what I found with my first Google hit -

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-methanol-poisoning.htm

Methanol poisoning has a number of symptoms. These include bizarre behavior, falling into a coma, extreme dizziness, severe headaches and seizures. Methanol poisoning can render a person temporarily blind, dilate the pupils and cause blurred vision. The digestive system starts to immediately reject methanol and symptoms may include severe stomach pain, nausea, and diarrhea. Methanol also disrupts liver and pancreatic function. Even with treatment, methanol poisoning can cause permanent liver damage.

Other symptoms in methanol poisoning are difficulty breathing, signs of low oxygen levels [From Inaccurate: Sounds like fainting to me] through blue fingernails and lips, complete fatigue and cramps in the legs. These symptoms when taken together represent a medical emergency, and you should contact 911 or emergency services in your country immediately if you suspect methanol poisoning. You should not attempt to induce vomiting with syrup of ipecac unless you are instructed to do so by emergency services

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

What made you choose Devil's Own? Just curious. I'm not sure if Alkycontrol is that much better to justify the difference in cost.

Inaccurate

Extracts from "The hidden danger in home biodiesel production" (click here)


Methanol is a highly toxic alcohol, and, on a hobby scale many producers inadvertently expose themselves to methanol through inhaling small quantities of fumes, and occasional skin splashes. It is very important to understand that methanol vapour is very easily absorbed by the lungs - in addition to that, methanol condenses on the eyes and skin, leading to absorption this way. Protection from these fumes is hence very very important.

If methanol does enter the blood stream it causes liver damage, swelling of the retina of they eye (which can cause blindness), brain damage and a host of other highly unpleasant symptoms.

It is also very important to understand that methanol is a highly flammable substance. Methanol burns explosively, and a rule of thumb is if you can smell methanol in the air, there is a good chance that somewhere in the room enough methanol is present to cause an explosion. The flame can find methanol even better than your nose can.

To avoid these problems, it is advisable that anybody who comes into contact with methanol wear goggles (so that whiffs of methanol vapour will condense on the goggles not the eyes), gloves, a lab coat (cotton preferably as this will not burn as easily if there is an explosion), a gas mask which is rated to remove methanol vapour - note that normal activated carbon masks for removing organic solvents are not effective at removing methanol, and that a special methanol removal cartridge is required. All reactors should be rigged to vent methanol fumes into a place where they will not cause an explosion, or be inhaled by people. The biodiesel production area should have an open flow of air to ensure that the atmosphere in the room does not slowly accumulate methanol. If an extractor fan is used, it must be a spark free extractor fan.

I hate cars

Ok then, maybe the meth leak did have something to do with the unexplainable bad liver function tests. They did say it was an outside source (not the usual causes such as hepatitis and others), possibly chemical and this never crossed our minds. This thing was dumping nearly 1.5 gallons a day into the trunk a day. I went through a 10 day puking and lethargic stage but otherwise felt fine. Very interesting.

Inaccurate

In the beginning, I checked all of the WMI vendors. I knew from the beginning that I wanted to design my own system. So, I was not interested in the kits. I needed somewhere that sells quality individual components from which I can design my own system.

Snow and Alkycontrol were quickly eliminated from my list because they are not user-friendly to selling individual components. Snow and Alkycontrol web sites do not allow a person to easily order individual components.

Snow furthermore began to irritate me because, in my opinion, Snow seems to focused on the "marketing" aspect (I mean that in a bad way) to just "win" customers.

Alkycontrol still used the outdated pump that cycles on/off quickly to modulate the output pressure. I can't allow my engine to be receiving no injection for every other induction cycle. My pump is used to feed a continuously injection of nitrous into the engine. I need a pump that is able to supply a *continuous* supply of supplementary fuel. Not a pump that is off for a fraction of a second. This vid below explains it well.

In Closing - For my needs, DevilsOwn and AIS were the most friendly in offering individual components. And, both appeared to offer quality stuff. Then, I began to order from both to compare between the two (shootout). I liked some things from AIS and some things DevilsOwn does better. So, both are my WMI supplies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNIjp...layer_embedded

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Inacc, I am intrigued by what you just said about the cycling of the pump to modulate pressure. Should I start another thread to pick your brain or should I just PM you? I don't want to confuse this thread more than it already is.

Inaccurate

Please feel free to PM me or start a new thread. However, I do feel that this topic is pertinent in this turbo thread. Hard to have a turbo with WMI.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

ok, I'll stay here.

How does Devil's Own modulate pressure with their stage2 kit. My common sense says that cycling a pump on and off isn't good and just wondering if their pump somehow varies the pressure via voltage vs cycling.

Other than that, the only difference I see is that Alkycontrol uses SS braided hoses for the pressure side which I can buy separately. And he uses an external filter inline on the pressure side.

Also, after reading about the negative side of 100% methanol, I am starting to rethink this. In any case, even with diluted mixture, you'd want to make sure that everything is methanol compatible.

The other question I had which I was trying to get Matt's attention but failed was the MAP sensor. Do we need to install a separate MAP sensor for the WMI?

I hate cars

I'm in no state to post on here. But while the alky control kit uses a digital signal, it comes out as redduced pressure, not on and off, no meth and 100% meth. The pressure guage my dad uses shows a reduced pressure, not pulsation. Theres always the response of the guage thats in question but he uses meth as a 20% supplimental fuel and no problems.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Where are you guys putting your injection nozzles?

Inaccurate

I discovered who is the real manufacturer of the pump sold by AIS, DevilsOwn, Snow, and CoolingMist. This was confirmed by several vendors on various forums. Not just by me comparing pictures.

AQUATEC DDP5800 (click here)

I hate cars

The alky control kits meant for the GNs come with a 3 bar MAP sensor. It should come with a 2 bar GM (bosch) sensor for the TL. But the answer is yes, you should run a separate sensor.

That inline filter is very important. A few of the blown headgaskets me and my father have encountered were due to the nozzles plugging on some of the early kits. This isn't as much of an issue with the TL since you won't be cranking the boost up with the meth but it's still a very good idea. On the GNs, as soon as it plugs, it's obvious when the knock detector starts going crazy. On the TL, you probably won't know for sure until it starts using less then the normal amount of meth and that might take a while to notice.

I hate cars

Standard on pretty much any car is 6" to 1' before the TB. I put the nozzle facing into the air stream so that hopefully it will mix quicker. It has to be extremely quick though. I can put my hand on the up pipe right before the TB on my car and feel the difference in the pipe before and just a few inches after the nozzle. It's amazing considering that the air can hit 300mph through the pipes.

I used to put them in the silicone coupling hoses but long term durability is much better with a bung welded into the uppipe and screwing the jet in.

Inaccurate

From Razor on another forum. Razor is from AlkyControl.

Source: http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showpos...2&postcount=36

We have been talking a lot of the dangers of running pure methanol. But if you want to play, you gotta pay in some fashion. For me, I am locked-in to using pure methanol. Plus, I am 50 years old. I won't be around too much longer to need to worry too much about long term effects.

Back to "gotta pay to play". Here is another thread stating that pure methanol is the only way to go. Please pay extra attention to replies from Razor. Razor is from AlkyControl.

Methanol users--100% or 50/50 mix (click here)

Inaccurate

Right. AIS sells the stainless Steel Braided line too.

Stainless Steel Hose Kits (click here)

I hate cars

It's good that you're showing the dangers of meth. I've been around it for so long that I've become complacent in the handling. Of course, I would never wash my hands in it or allow it to be in the passenger compartment but I've been less than safe. Lighting it on fire, getting it all over my hands and not washing them afterwards, a few splashes in the face, and breathing the fumes. I even dipped my finger in it and blew on it to see how cold I could get it lol. In the beginning 10yrs ago, I treated it like it would kill me with one breath or one drop on the skin. I always figured the years of running super leaded 100LL with no convertors and eyes watering along with washing my hands in gasoline for years and using the old good solvent when I was a mechanic with no gloves would catch up to me first.

Inaccurate

I agree. This is one of the reasons that I plan to not use a controllers for my WMI nor a controller for my nitrous.

The manufacturer of the pump used by Snow, AIS, Coolingmist states -

"Rapid On/Off Cycling must be limited to no more than 6 times per minute, even if the pump is operating in the Continuous Duty zone. Cycling could cause the motor to heat beyond the recommended maximum temperature, and reduce the operational life of the pump." (click here for source)





I did not know the answer to this question. But, I thought it would be fun to research it. I spent some time tonight reading about WMI controllers. I found no clear answer.

It does appear to vary with each company. Some evidence says that Snow uses voltage to control the pump output. Whereas, DevilsOwn claims to use pulse width modulation to control pump output.

Previously, I had not learned anything about controllers because I plan to not use one. My plan is to use as few electronics and variables as possible. That is one of the many beautiful things about nitrous. It is based on a simple constant flow of nitrous, requiring a simple constant flow of supplementary fuel.

I have no plans to mess up this beauty with WMI controllers nor nitrous controllers. KISS for me. But, it was fun researching the WMI controllers.

-------------------------------------------------


PWM control signal (click here)

"Like the other vendors we don't advertise our full specs on the controllers, but t works up around the 1khz range. or up to 1000 times a second of pulsing."

---------------------------------------------------------------------


Well, this is not the best source of info. but, it might be worth something.

Trigger Device and Controller (click here)

"By varying the voltage to the pump you are able to control the water pressure and amount of water going into the intake. This is accomplished by using a controller. I used one by Snow Performance. Like most controllers it requires input from a sensor to control the voltage going to the pump. Lower voltage = less pressure & water."

---------------------------------------------------------------------


USRT Group Buy: Snow Performance water/alky injection (click here)

"The [Snow] progressive controllers change the input voltage to the water pump. The nozzles that Snow provides are designed to atomize the spray solution very well between 60 - 140psi which is the range that the controller produces."

libert69

iTrader: (7)

6 inches from the TB. I just remembered that I had the p2r throttle body spacer in the box I gave to rodney. It has a 1/8" port on the bottom that I plan to use to monitor IATs. I just need to find a gauge for it.

I think I remember a while back someone saying that you can use any type of temp gauge (oil/trans/water) to monitor IATs. Is this true?

Inaccurate

While a person could do this, you would not want to.

The problem is the thermal mass of the temperature probe. The probe used for water/trans/oil temperatures has too much thermal mass.

A probe with too much thermal mass will respond too slowly to changes in temperature. The probe *will* read the correct temp *if* you waited long enough for the probe to adjust to the ambient temperature.

To realistically read the IAT, you need a probe that can quickly react to changes in ambient temp. By the way, I am using “ambient temp” to mean that temperature which immediately surrounds the probe. I don’t mean the outdoor weather temp.

A probe that is thick and heavy will have high thermal mass. A thin and light probe will have low thermal mass.

This is the same situation as a EGT probe. To read the exhaust temp in “real time”, you need a probe with low thermal mass. This is why the Defi brand is a good EGT gauge. Defi uses a low thermal mass probe, which allow the gauge to respond very quickly and accurately.

Compare the probe of my Defi EGT to the size of this typical water gauge probe.

I hate cars

I understand the concern with PWM style regulating but in reality it is not a concern. I've been running the same kit for over 5 years and my father for nearly 7 years without a pump replacement.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Thank you Innacurate. Great info

Heres some pics of the progress. We ran into another small problem that had nothing to do with the turbo kit. My excelerate front motor mount broke. It probably broke about a week ago because I started to feel a very harsh shift from 1st to 2nd when accelerating at a normal rate of speed.

I had to drive from long island all the way to excelerates shop in Connecticut and pickup a set of innovative mounts then back to new jersey to give them to rodney. So for the time being Ill be using the 1 innovative front mount with a 60a bushing and the xlr8 75a side and rear mounts. I plan to upgrade the innovative bushing to a 75a or 85a.

Question...Can I run a 85a front bushing and 75a side and rear bushing?

Injectors are in. Oil pan tapped. Intercooler and bov mounted. All the piping will be done tomorrow and off to the dyno on monday.

For the auto guys, my .75" trans cooler fits perfect.

I hate cars

Very nice! I can't wait to see how this turns out on an auto TL. Wait until you discover some amazing launches from a slight powerbrake and not having to lift throttle on the shifts. If it holds together, this should be the quickest (not fastest) 3rd gen TL in existence.

You're going to give that big trans cooler a workout for sure but you're got the best cooler you can get. Monitoring temps may not be a bad idea until you get an idea of normal running temps during boost. There is always the option of installing a self contained fan/thermostat kit if the temps do get too high.

I can't remember for sure but you're running Amsoil racing fluid, right?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I pulled the trigger on the Alkycontrol kit. One thing that impressed me was Julio's communication was excellent.

Also ordered the rest of my exhaust so I will be busy when I get back next week. The hot weather broke up here, hopefully it stays that way.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Bert, what year is your TL? I had the same power steering cooler. What are they going to do with that? I don't think Hi Speed had one on his ride.

I ended up getting an aftermarket and sandwiched it like you did with the tranny cooler.

That's too bad about your mount. Was it a weld failure or something in the design?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Do you think that launching from a stop is going to put more stress on the trans as opposed to punching it from a slow roll?

I have never taken a car to the track but I really want to get a few runs in and see if I can break into the 12s. Im going to need a lot of practice though.

Im also wondering if I should buy a larger trans cooler? I dont think Ive seen anything bigger then the B&M unit I have that is 11"X 7 1/2" X 3/4"

Which temps are you referring too? IAT? Trans?
I found this IAT gauge that Im planning to buy. http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...roducts_id=800

Where is a good location for a transmission temp sensor? Do you think I could use some sort of T fitting (3/8" ID and OD with a 1/8" port) in the supply side of the trans cooler line and mount the sensor in the fluid stream?

Yes I am using 90% amsoil racing fluid/10% regular amsoil atf

libert69

iTrader: (7)

2004...I think rodney said he was going to mount it back up. I didnt ask details. What was the problem with yours? It doesnt fit with the intercooler in the way?

As far as the mount goes Im not sure what caused the failure. However, I compared the innovative mount to the xlr8 mount and the tab that bolts to the motor is twice as think on the innovative mount.

Inaccurate

I do remember asking Innovative the same question. I was asking in case I wanted to do that as a fine-tuning option to get the best balance between vibration and engine movement. Unfortunately, I forgot what the answer was. It was several years ago.

I can’t say with any great authority. There might be some obscure reason why not to. But, I can tell you that *I* would do it without any hesitation. I can’t think of anything that it would hurt.


Thanks for the pics. Looking great

Inaccurate

I too saw that when I first saw the pics of the XLR8 mount. I then thought to myself "well, I am sure that they know what they are doing ". Just from looking at the pics, I felt that the XLR8 mount was too skimpy with the thickness of the metal.

Inaccurate

Before we leave the topic of methanol safety, I want to discuss one more thing.

The pump should be mount on the exterior of the car. Perhaps under the floorboard somewhere. In light of the story from “I Hate Car” where his friend obviously (IMO) suffered methanol poisoning from a leaky pump system. Plus knowing that a likely cause of pump failure is a leaking pump. I feel that it is very unwise to mount the pump anywhere in the interior. And, I consider the trunk as being part of the interior. There is a direct air interchange between the cabin and the trunk.

These pumps do not like to get wet. Too much dampness is a common reason for failure with these pumps. So, we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Just try to pick a spot that you think would keep it somewhat dry when mounted outside or under the car.

This discussion primarily pertains to those running pure methanol. Does a 50/50 water-methanol mixture have similar issues with long-term exposure to fumes?

I hate cars

I run the 13x13x1-1/2" B&M coolers. I'm not sure if you have enough room for one of the 1-1/2" thick coolers though. I think there are a few sizes in between ours.

First you might try the temp guage on the cooler inlet. Another good place if they make one for the TL is to install a probe in the sump, maybe in place of the drain bolt. This way would give a good average temp. The cooler inlet would give a good peak temp since it's coming from the convertor which is the hottest place in the trans.

I hate cars

I didn't see this post earlier. I talked to him today and I was careful not to accidentally lead him into answering anything the way I wanted.

The symptoms started for a couple days before he switched to water from pure meth and got worse until he ended up in the emergency room from passing out. I got the call from his GF. At this same time I was having severe abdominal pain which the doctor had no clue as to what it was. I got some pills to stop vomiting (Sorry, I know it's gross) so I could go to work. This lasted about 10 days and I lost about 15lbs because I was in extreme pain if I ate anything. I'm back to about 80% now but I still can't eat much of anything without pain.

Other symptoms from talking to the friend today was an extreme sensitivity to sunlight. I now remember him saying he felt like a vampire back then. I honestly figured when the liver results came back so bad they would find disease but they came back with an unknown external cause. I had been at his house and when the mold was suggested I figured that was the cause of my pain too and quit looking for another source.

I remember his lips were turning blue but to be fair, at the same time he had a prescription for vicotin or lortab or some sort of hydrocodone. He's not the type to abuse anything but I looked up the overdose symptoms of that medication and the lips turning blue were a part of it. I didn't want to offend him by asking but it was always in the back of my mind. Thinking a little harder, he was laughing about having "growing pains" in his legs and arms for a few days but he's 34yrs old.

I'm a little more worried after thinking about this a little more and reading our symptoms compared to the known side effects. I may go back to the doctor soon to get my liver checked.

Inaccurate

IHC,

I hate to say it, but this does seem to be *very* obvious here. You both suffered methanol poisoning.

Thank you for sharing this story. I was on undecided if I should mount my pumps inside the car and run the lines thru the interior. Your story hit “too close to home”. Thank you for sharing that story. I am now sure that I will be mounting my pump under the car and running the lines under the floorboard outside.

IHC, I am very sorry that this happened to you and your friend. If it is any consolation, your expereince will help us reader to avoid anything similar.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Man Matt, I think you should go back to the doctor. It sounds like you were both in bad shape for a while.

I never realized how bad methanol is. I've seen so many races where people get soaked with this stuff and the only thing they ever talk about is the invisible flame.

Hope you make a full recovery of this and as Inacc said, thanks for sharing your experience. It certainly heightened my awareness and I will be more careful all around.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

The intercooler is in the way of the original mounting position. New hoses were going to be needed so I figured I might as well just put in a small cooler since they are so easy to install.

I guess your mount experience is just part of being one of the first to install. I was a bit disappointed about not getting them but I feel better going with IM's now. I went with the heaviest I could get.