vill0169

iTrader: (4)

cool cool man, sounds like a good set of upgrades! I'm sad that my more "winter" time track days are a thing of the past for now. no track for til March or April probably...oh well, just time for more mods lol

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ do you Auto guys downshift yourself when tracking or just leave it @ 'D' and forget about it LOL

vill0169

iTrader: (4)

Good question, any auto guys that track/diet switch to brembos or even RL brakes? I can see multiple benefits in switching over.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ I dont see that Rex....you car is 1000lbs lighter than a Type S or a Base/Types 6MT...i think by a BBK, you will only be adding weight....

and do you manually shift at the track or just leave it in D ?

the fenda rolla

Hey Swoosh, I manually shift and turn VSA off...if we left it in D, it would upshift way too often and would cost precious seconds trying to downshift again and being caught out of the powerband...and I think with all that extra shifting it would heat up the transmission fluid a lot more too...maybe...

Another thing, everyone at the track is always shocked when I tell them my car is an automatic...it really does perform great! I actually like it a little better than a manual! (Puts flamesuit on...) No chance of missing a shift or over-revving the engine or grinding gears...

And Rex, I was thinking about upgrading my brakes even more, but there isn't a quick/inexpensive set-up yet that would really outperform what I got already...

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ i ask coz i downshift while city driving and I just wanted to make sure am not messing anything up LOL

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

He sees that because there are more things to consider than just weight, swoosh.

by upgrading to a larger rotor, you get less brake fade.
perfect for a track setting with multiple banks and curves which would take a toll on the smaller automatic rotors.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

well size is a small factor when talking about brake fade....its the type of rotor/pads/fluid/brake lines which cause fade....you can get a similar brake fade in the 6MT brembo setup....

now unless they were thinking of upgrading to a different setup completely (AP Racing/Project mu/etc) then it will help with brake fade but if they get the same pads/rotors in a bigger size, they will be carrying down more weight and experiencing fade as well....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fade

vill0169

iTrader: (4)

I was asking the AT guys specifically if they've thought about different front brakes. the AT calipers are frickin heavy and the rotors are smaller but actually heavier IIRC. Not to mention the AT caliper design would seem to hold considerably more heat than a brembo type setup in my opinion.

Was just food for thought I guess...wouldn't be that expensive of a switch over to the brembo setup really.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Dont worry, I knew where you were going.
I see the benefits as well.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

really

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^lol
it's okay swoosh, dont feel bad.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

you bastid haha

the fenda rolla

I think we would need the whole Type-S knuckle to have the Brembos...which would be another chunk of change...i think...

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ yes, you would need the knuckle to change over....

i know someone was selling couple sets for 700-800 shipped....but the pads and rotors were almost gone....

the fenda rolla

Gotcha...and yea, that's a little steep, 700-800 plus at least $100 for a set of two rotors and another $180 for some nice Carbotechs...so about $1000-1100...hmmm...it'd look awesome though...

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

it will be more effective to get either of these:

http://store.excelerateperformance.c.../i-236894.aspx

http://store.excelerateperformance.c.../i-209775.aspx

http://store.excelerateperformance.c...s/g-66163.aspx

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

Rex/Peter am going to be thinking out loud here....

was having a discussion with Justin on gtalk on how to reduce brake fade....

he was telling about bigger rotors but here is my take on it...

bigger rotors hence bigger pads = more surface area = more friction = more heat....granted it will slow you down quicker but i think it will fade more....on the flip side, bigger rotors = more internal vanes = more heat dissipation...

with your cars being around 1000 lbs lighter than stock which is a 25-30% decrease in weight you dont want bigger rotors to slow you down....also bigger rotors = more rolling mass....

with the AT calipers the biggest problem is design....i think the "closed" design traps in the heat and doesnt let the heat dissipate very well....

instead of getting a BBK, what if you get calipers which will fit the OEM sized AT rotors and get pads for those calipers....something in the lines of this:

http://store.excelerateperformance.c.../i-278628.aspx

will this help resolve the brake fade?

again am just thinking out loud and if am wrong please correct me....

vill0169

iTrader: (4)

Not necessarily true though, if you have larger rotors and pads, they could possibly do "less work" and still provide the same amount of braking power as a stock sized setup given the same amount of brake pressure. It's just working more efficiently, and therefore not as hard, making less temp.

I really don't see the logic here. Wouldn't you agree that having a lighter car and stock sized brakes is similar to having a stock weight car with larger brakes? The relationship at least is pretty similar. Think about it in relation to tires, just because my car is 25% lighter than stock doesn't mean I expect it to run as good on a 25% smaller (narrower) tire. right? I think the same is true for brake size.

As for the AT calipers, that's exactly what I was saying earlier, that the large, thick aluminum design is much more susceptible to building (and retaining more importantly) excess heat.

Well for one, spending $1300 on two calipers with no increase in pad/rotor size is just fucking stupid IMO. Yeah the caliper design and material would distribute heat better and you're getting 4 pistons (not six like they picture lol) but you're still on a smaller rotor with less surface area and you'd have to get better rotors anyways on top of what you've already spent.



OK, let me just throw out my on the topic here, being I've tracked my car at every weight with many different brake setups over the years. Preventing brake fade IMO is all about controlling temperature. There are MANY things one can do to help the brakes get cooling air while moving (hell even while stopped with brake duct fans) and we can discuss those til the cows come home. But that's the key, temperature.

Especially when picking what compound of brake pad you are going to run. It's obvious that if you track a street pad on street brake fluid, you'll over temp them and get fade about as fast as you blink haha. But if you take the time to match the operating range of the brake pad to the kinds of temps you'll likely see while on track, the potential for fade from the rotor/pad aspect is already reduced. Couple that with better rotors, better fluid, and some ducting and you've probably got a brake system rather safe from fade. But I would have to say that increasing the size of the rotors and pads would also make it more effective in the long run.

I fully believe that the only limiting factor for a track cars tires and brakes should be class rules, money, and fitment. Look weight is important to keep at a minimum, but would you really sacrifice almost obvious better performance just to keep x number of pounds off the car? I may shock some of you but my answer is no. If I could afford larger brakes and wider tires, I'd buy them in a heart beat (to a reasonable extent obviously) and not care if my BBK is 2lbs heavier than stock because I know that braking at the 2 or 3 marker instead of the 3 or 4 marker will definitely equal faster lap times.

I'm sure I could rant on and on but I think I got my point across. let's keep the discuss going though

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

thanks Rex, I really think that helped me understand the braking system a lot better....

btw look what I found:

http://store.excelerateperformance.c.../i-236893.aspx

I think $795 for that is a pretty decent deal...I am not sure how good the rotors/pads are but well....these are 12.6" which is 0.4" bigger than Type S/MT rotors and a fully 1.2" bigger than 5AT

Wacker

Great post Rex!!!

vill0169

iTrader: (4)

Yep, always been a fan of that kit. pretty sure they make a rear kit too for about the same money.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^

the rear kit is a 12.2" kit and its 1200 coz it comes with 2 piece rotors

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Good to see you carry those questions you had over here, swoosh.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

This thread is in the top 10 most informative on AZ.

vill0169

iTrader: (4)

thanks man! this thread can be so much more than just a track car build thread. anyone feel free to post track related questions here anytime!!

vill0169

iTrader: (4)

Hey Anil, what's that sight you've posted about in the past to get aluminum bends for intakes and such? Can't find it ATM...

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

I got couple items from:

http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/

i know for his exhaust, inaccurate used:
http://www.burnsstainless.com/

vill0169

iTrader: (4)

cool cool, thanks bud. got some intake ideas in my head so I wanted the info for that.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

all you need is a 90deg elbow bend, a filter and a reducer

i got all the items from that verocious website...

vill0169

iTrader: (4)

sweet sweet. I got some ideas of tucking the filter in right under the headlight facing forward with some ducts feeding it from the bumper.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

well the only thing you wanna make sure is the piping length....

if its a SRI, it moves the power band to the lower rpms....CAI moves the power band to the higher rpm.....

SRI is more affected by engine heat as its sitting right behind the engine fan....CAI is isolated and hence can be "heat proofed"

once you have the filter location....feed some nice cool air to it using a *ding ding ding* dryer hose

vill0169

iTrader: (4)

lol I think I can even do better than that....stay tuned....

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

am all ears

might follow your lead

vill0169

iTrader: (4)

psh I'm just going to have to sell my car someday aren't I? lol

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

we wont allow you

vill0169

iTrader: (4)

lol I guess you'll just have a clone of mine then haha. I think we to need to organize a larger scale AZ TL track day next year. Get a good 3-4 of us at the same track at the same time.

the fenda rolla

^^^ this...

Dave_B

Larger rotors have more swept area which means they'll dissipate heat far easier. Larger rotors are usually thicker too. They might not necessarily brake better on the street (0-70), but they'll have much better bite from higher speeds and will be able to do so with little to no fade.

Large brakes usually require more heat to work efficiently so it's quite possible that larger brakes will brake worse on the street.

Auto-x cars really don't need larger brakes unless the OEM system is poor. A set of pads is usually all you need. Auto-x speeds don't exceed 70mph and the threshold braking isn't lengthly. Road race cars do need capable larger brakes because they're braking for 140mph+ to 50mph often. That's a ton of friction trying to slow a relatively heavy car that weighs 3,000lbs+.

Larger brakes (rotors, calipers) are much heavier and have way rotational inertia with the weight centered around the worst possible place, the hub. However, it's all a trade-off if you're road racing a car. Tires and brakes are key to any car that sees track duty. The last thing you want is your brakes to fail at 120mph coming into a turn.

70+% of your braking power comes from the front; therefore, adding huge rear brakes isn't completely necessary and can REALLY screw up threshold braking.

Adding larger brakes to a street car can really screw up OEM brake proportioning and can result in some really dangerous braking traits. Many racecars use adjustable proportion valves to adjust braking between the front and rear axles. Street cars have a valve too, but it isn't adjustable. Huge brakes can screw up this OEM proportioning.

Cars like the 3rd gen TL come with electronic brake force distribution (BFD). The BFD system uses ABS and stability control to distribute braking power under threshold braking. Larger brakes can totally screw with this system because the system isn't expecting overly powerful front braking power. This can lead to unexpected initial lock-up at either axle and really weird braking behavior.

Significantly improving braking power and overwhelm your tires. You better make sure you've got sticky rubber or else the brakes will case lock-up.

Long story short, you REALLY need to do your research when it comes to upgrading brakes on a street car. WAY too people throw on big brake kits (BBKs) because they think it looks cool and have no idea they can potentially be making their car brake much worse on the street and even on the track. Most buyers are posers and are solely going for the image of "racecar'. They talk about how much better the pedal feels, but they've never put the brakes through the paces to see if it's really the case.

Remember, what applies to a racecar doesn't not necessarily apply to a street car, even one that sees some track duty. Everything is a compromise. Understand what you're doing. I can't stress that enough.

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

If the tubing is for air intake, you could also consider using plastic(lighter and doesn't conduct heat like metal). I was thinking about using this 4" airaid UBI(u build it) kit and using a 4"-3" reducer.

http://www.airaid.com/ComingSoonProd...e-dca9a93bd649