NvrDwn

Uh no you tell them exactly what the problem is. What tiny advantage K&N filters have over paper is negligible Hp and mpg wise. It also can screw your sensors down stream.

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

Hah. My turbo kit hasnt been installed yet because I am doing it right. Im not using metal drain spouts to make an intake.

I realized the problems that half assing a build could cause unlike yourself.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

^hahahahahah

ez12a

correct me if i'm mistaken, but a meth kit can bring that IAT way down from 138..maybe even slightly sub ambient due to the evaporative cooling effect of water, thus giving you even more oxygen and therefore power.

I hate cars

Dave, is the iat sensor before or after the supercharger? The blower won't heat it up much at all when not in boost but what are your IATs after a 5-10 second full throttle pull (assuming the sensor is after the blower)?

Meth can definitely cool below ambient but it depends on how big of a shot you're running and the ratio of water. Water has the potential to cool better if it had time to evaporate but it doesn't. Water will cool the charge just slightly. Pure methanol has a tremendous cooling ability because it all flashes off almost instantly. So in practice meth has 2-3x the air cooling ability of water and that's part of the reason I run pure Meth. Pure meth is also harder to screw up and easier to tune especially on low boost applications when it's easy to choke it down.

Pghpizzaman

this thread gets better everyday. you have some of the smartest people on the forum spoon feeding you in this thread and you still don't listen. everyone is trying to help you and you dont want it why??? your tensioner and belt slip aren't going to make up the HP you are missing. FACT. i understand you are a mechanic but you aren't a 25 year vet. everyone has stuff to learn and room to grow in their profession, you could learn alot in this thread about boosting a car but you are unwilling to listen and don't seem to really read what people are telling you.
your lucky people are even trying to help you after how much you shut everyone down in here.....

NvrDwn

Shoot you could be a mechanic for 50 years and still know nothing about boost applications especially if you are only doing simple rotor, pad, filter etc changes (I'm not saying this is all he does).

I hate cars

The belt slip might make up the power lost depending on how high the boost goes once it's fixed. Right now power is being used to spin the blower plus some power going up in heat from the slippage. If the blower draws close to 40hp it's barely at its break even point.

Total power should be close to the J32 with the blower since it's using the same sized pulley. Boost should be less with near equal power.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

like IHC said earlier - pure meth is easy to tune on and works well for your application. Even a mixture isn't a big deal. You can install a meth kit in a couple hours including installing the tank in the trunk.

Whether or not you run high boost vs. the small 2.2 lbs you currently have is irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not you could legitimately make good use of methanol injection.

The issue we are targeting here is the intake temps. Hot air going into the engine and how it is killing your power, and fucking up the spark and fuel that your ECU is compensating with for the ever-increasing air temps you will see in your way-too-small blower that doesn't have a FMIC.

This is about overall engine health, how well the car runs, and just generally "doing things right". If you are running a supercharger, especially a small blower, and you have no real intercooler, then methanol makes a lot of sense. So to put it plainly, that's the scenario you're in right now.

Meth just makes sense given how you have set the car up.

I don't know how else to explain it. Meth kits are cheap and don't take long to install. But i know your funds are tight right now. That said, please don't take this the wrong way because I'm not trying to be a dick, but IMO you should never mod a car to this extent without having a bunch of cash on-hand.
To make sure you do the setup properly, and can account for unforeseen things, especially here where you intentionally went with a blower that was not advised by the members on this forum - there's bound to be some costs involved in finishing the build properly.

Hell I expected the cams/heads on my car to be like, 8k and it turned into 13k. I didn't even consider beginning the project until I had a solid 30k in the bank, specifically for that reason. You don't want to drive your car around when it isn't running at optimum because you didn't have the cash to finish off your build the right way.

Marcelechka

^

kingkong_dav

Im using a smoke machine to diagnose any boost and vaccum leaks

kingkong_dav

kingkong_dav

4 inch intake duct has arrived. Flex to fit.

kingkong_dav

quickkick127

You don't happen to have an aftermarket tensioner assembly in there do you? For example I had replaced mine some time ago with a dayco tensioner. It didn't hold up as well as OEM apparently and wasn't applying enough tension. I ended up buying another OEM one, cutting the outside housing off to expose the notch of the main assembly that stops the rotation of the tensioner. I shortened this notch by ~1/2 its original length to allow for it to collapse farther and therefore provide additional spring tension. Obviously this also required a shorter belt...3" in my case. This gained me a little boost as well as switching to a gatorback belt. If you insist you're having belt slippage then this will definitely help to some extent.
You should look over the last page or two of my thread on v6performance... You're high intake temps are definitely costing you though. I ended up having a leak in my aftercooler and had to remove it. I put down 375WHP at ~4.5psi, took it off to see if I gained the boost I was supposed to be running and dropped to 340whp at ~6+psi. I gained boost but lost that much power just due to loosing my cooling.
Also, you might want to consider looking into a thread I saw either on this site or v6 about adapting ct supercharger to fit the m90. My tuner seems to think I'm about maxing the m90 out with a 3.6L at 8-9psi... Might be trying a smaller pulley soon so we'll see.

Did the smoke test yield anything useful?

I hate cars

You gained and lost boost at the intake manifold. If you measured the temp at the supercharger outlet boost would be the same with and without the intercooler. This is why turbos are nice. Since they work on a vacuum signal from the intake manifold, boost is automatically increased when you cool the air more such as adding an intercooler or other changes so that manifold pressure remains steady. That's why an intercooler gave me over 80hp.

quickkick127

^Not sure I entirely follow...I'm rather new to the whole boosted world.

My temp and boost gauge are both taken from the factory throttle body location, after the liquid to air aftercooler....so the boost indicated would be different with and without the aftercooler or am I mistaken in assuming the density of the air plays a role in psi readings?

JJH

iTrader: (1)

What is the stock IAT? Why spend as much as you did for only 2.2lbs of boost when you can get equal power gains from fully bolted? Curiosity, not insulting.

kingkong_dav

Quickkick thanks for the info brotha. Im bz tonight.. Cant post too much..

Jjh.
I was expecting over 300whp, i have repair issues.. Stretched belt bad tensioner n a possible bad by pass valve. All repairable...
Ilc, i might run meth, but i need to make it worth it. Hbp.... But i have to repair the slip first. I hate to dig in my savings acct. It feels like i dont care about buying a house n care about smoking srt8 more. Shit ass feeling when i think about it. Your thread was great btw. Awesome numbers..

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Just and FYI

https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=286

"Yea. IIRC Paul said the M62 on a 3.5 was struggling to hit 2psi. The M62 really cant flow enough for our motors."

Looks like your not going to get more boost

Here is m90 retrofit build onto your existing m62. You can keep all the comptech crap on it to pass smog.

https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-cl-2001-2003-50/mp90-supercharger-retrofitted-mp62-comptech-kit-694376/

quickkick127

I'd recommend considering this m90 retrofit thisaznboi and I mentioned in the future. I really don't think you'll be happy with the power you'll have for the amount of money and work you've done...that is assuming you're staying around 2 psi.

I hate cars

You're completely right, I was just adding to what you said. You definitely lose boost at the engine with the intercooler because the mass of air from the blower stays the same but the volume is reduced because of the condensed air.

However, if boost were measured right at the supercharger outlet in both scenarios you would have the same boost with or without the intercooler.

Where the turbo has a huge advantage is it gets it's boost signal at the intake manifold and boost is easily manipulated. When you add an intercooler to a non intercooled turbo engine the boost at the manifold stays the same as non intercooled but if measuring boost at the turbo outlet it actually increases in order to get the same boost pressure at the engine after the addition of the intercooler.

To keep boost at the manifold the same after the intercooler addition on the supercharged engine you need to add a smaller supercharger pulley to increase boost before the intercooler. The turbo does this automatically.

I'm not real familiar with the engine management you guys use but I'm sure it has triggers or outputs. It should be incredibly easy to manipulate the vacuum signal to the bypass valve and use it as a wastegate of sorts. More of a high boost/low boost and not an infinitely variable boost like a turbo.

You would go with a large blower with a pulley that will get you say 10psi when the bypass is closed. You would have a T in the vacuum like to the bypass with a solenoid that can bleed off the vacuum signal and reduce boost. The ECU would only allow full boost when all conditions are met such as cool EGTs, no knock,
Etc. This would be a way to not only have a safeguard for the engine but a way to make considerably more power safely.

quickkick127

^I see, yeah, I misunderstood what you were saying initially. Thanks for the explanation.

I'm personally just a fan of the s/c with aftercooler setup. I like instantaneous response. Drove a few turbod vehicles and didn't like the wait to build boost... It was like driving an automatic and waiting for it to decide to downshift...

From my understandings I have exactly the setup you mentioned. I have a bypass set up like a wastegate only it doesn't have any of the safety features.

oraclem20

Jesus Christ this thread has everything that you do and don't need for an sc build.


As for budget concerns, I would get an inject kit for 2-300, a factory tensioner and an upgraded belt. Keep it under 500, retune and leave it for a while.
mp90 is the right step, but expensive.
Mixed opinions about that intake.

I hate cars

People have a bad habit of going too large on the turbos. I have one that will support 800hp an on my V6 and it's near instant. Autos generally spool a turbo quicker than a manual especially with the right torque converter. The dyno charts for cars like mine are usually flat. From the time the throttle is hit to whatever point they let off is a flat line, power is everywhere on the tach because the turbos spool so quick and the engine is always in it's powerband which is huge. The import world especially is a little behind the curve when it comes to streetable turbocharging and I think some of that is they're still caught up with making peak hp numbers instead of a setup that's going to be fun on the street and get you to the finish line first.

The last one I saw posted on here made 700hp but not until redline. I would rather make 600hp for a 3,500rpm span.

You can see in Dave's dyno and a lot of the supercharger dynos for the TL that it looks similar to a NA curve, just scaled higher. I don't know if the bypass is designed to limit boost at lower rpms because of the horrible engine management that originally came with the supercharger to protect the engine but you should be able to better the low end numbers with good engine management available today by closing the bypass much earlier. It sounds like you might be doing that already.

quickkick127

Here is my dyno from my previous set up when I had a lot of boost leaks and belt slippage.



I too have a pretty level torque line but its not entirely accurate because I was running out of fuel at 4.5k with the factory pump and 410 injectors. Since then have upgraded to 725cc injectors and a 340 stealth pump as well fix a myriad of other issues causing belt slippage and leaks. Should be seeing the new dyno graph tomorrow if all goes well. I'm told its running between 7.5-9.5 psi finally. Not sure how this will affect the curves but i'm anxious to find out.

I hate cars

^^ That does look nice.

Here's what I'm used to seeing. I could only find one in the 5 seconds or so I had to search and it's a stock engine with boost turned up and a couple little things like a chip and filter.

I admit, this one is exaggerated becuase of the stock turbo but you get the gist of it. Also, the test was only started from 4,000rpm so it's not really fair but this is close to how they normally look on a full run when measured at the wheels. At lower rpms the torque usually spikes even higher which results in a fairly constant power over the rpm range. I'll dig up some more with a few more mods and longer runs.



This probably explains why some of the cars I ran when I was 90% stock like the new at the time LS1 Vette would pull toward the top of each gear but I had a steady pull and would pull away for most of the run with the exception of right before they shifted gears.

Yours looks better than I expected for sure and I like the boost on the low end. Are you manipulating the bypass valve differently than "stock"?

quickkick127

Yes it is being manipulated differently. This is Paul's set up. Like I said this stuff is still new to me but the jist of what I got from his explanation is it acts like a waste gate and allows for full boost almost instantaneously instead of an incremental rise. Sorry I can't add more about it but I have found articles of the new mustang superchargers employing the same setup to maximize boost at lower rpms.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Damn IHC, I want to know more about this Indy engine...

quickkick127

Are you boosted guys leaving that vacuum line that runs between the manifold and the valve cover connected? Looking at a couple comptech pictures and it looks like they are but wouldn't that pressurize the valve covers?

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Many people run one way check valves between the two or anywhere else in the PCV external lines that's logical. FYI, the brake booster vacuum supply line already runs a check valve in it so that should be safe up to a max of 10 psi. Anything beyond that is pushing the valves limits.

I've been seriously contemplating running a matched volume vacuum pump (mechanically operated) to free up a bit more HP and help with maintaining good ring seal under boost. Stock pistons don't have the ports that most aftermarket pistons generally carry (or offer anyways) that allow the compression to seep behind the ring on the top land which helps with reduced blow by and also slightly increases HP (as I said) by enhancing ring seat and thus compression loss. This is most often times a bigger problem in forced induction engines due to the increased cylinder pressure.

There's so many things to think about when building a reliable forced induction motor.

quickkick127

The reason I was asking because my set up runs the valve cover hoses to the inlet side of the supercharger and I believe it is picking up some oil and running it through the supercharger. I was trying to find another way to do this.

I am really close to running 10psi right now... thanks for the warning, I'm going to have to upgrade that too now.

I hate cars

It's going to be a challenge. Buick ran a stock based engine in Indy which allowed them to run more displacement and boost. This thing will bolt up on my car without any major work.

It's an old turbo Indy engine from the late 80s. It's been broken in on the dyno but never been in a car. I believe it was built by McLaren but don't hold me to it.

On the upside, with a modern turbo these engines will make close to 2,000hp at moderate boost and are capable of 3,000+ with lots of boost or so I'm told. This is one of the very rare 4.5L engines before they went with the destroked 3.3L. They're rock solid reliability wise except for the valvetrain. They started running into reliability issues past 14,000rpm but it's a pushrod engine so it's to be expected.

On the downside, these engine don't begin to make power until near 7,000rpm and it needs to be spun to 13,000rpm to make full power. I like low end torque.

I might try to run it as is just for the hell of it but chances are I'm going to try and use some smaller heads and a smaller cam.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

I seen this one for sale a while back...this wouldn't be the one you're after is it?


I hear ya on the whole torque thing but I'm about to commence a 2.8L build using a j25a crank and a j37a1 block and can't wait to do the opposite of everything else. Torque is badass, yes...agreed. But there's something about revving high that makes me feel GOOD and on a long twist, curvy road I enjoy (on my bike especially) coming out of a long curve about mid way with my foot down and the motor wound up tight in its powerband to feel that snap your neck resonsiveness from a short stroke engine! Go ahead, reread that a few more times and visualize that scene.

This won't be my first high revving motor, the last one I built was a small journal SBC V8. Building an engine that can sustain high revs is much more expensive than your typical torque monster. The bottom end has to be tough. The top end, also tough. The electronics and tune, perfect. That appeals much more to me than most other engines for the shear challenge.

As for your Indy engine, I'm sure that you WILL have to install smaller heads/cams, yes. That's the only way to gain an appreciation for the motor on the street. But don't tame her too much. Keep it unique and make it a one of a kind!

kingkong_dav

I found my boost problem...frigging bypass valve wasnt opening all the way under wot. Will be back w new tune n numbers

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

That bypass valve still wont cure your heatsoak problem...

JesseDean

iTrader: (1)

In for updates. Wana supercharge mine if I keep it.

Turbocoop

iTrader: (3)

Im taking my CT kit off this week, ^^^keep an eye out in the black market

MAS

iTrader: (3)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingkong_dav

I found my boost problem...frigging bypass valve wasnt opening all the way under wot. Will be back w new tune n numbers

I believe it works the opposite... bypass closes under WOT.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

how much?