2010 TSX - V6 engine confirmed
to the whole post but this line in particular times 1,000,000.
02-13-2009, 01:44 PM
#962
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CVTs are going to be the norm in about 10 years. They can be amazingly efficient and the engineers have finally figured how to make the crazy belts they use stand up for a reasonable amount of time. In the past this has been the main stumbling block.
For the average family commuter car I suspect the arrangement that will be most common in 10 to 15 years will be a small gas motor powering the rear wheels through a CVT and one or two electric motors turning the front wheels with no transmission. The front wheels will only be powered at low speed and heavy acceleration (and possibly as part of the stability control system) while the rear wheels will handle cruising at higher speeds nearly exclusively. It doesn't take a ton of HP to keep a car moving once it's at speed so a 100 to 150 HP motor would be plenty for all but the largest vehicles while the electric front wheels can supply 300+ ft lbs of instantly available torque the get the thing moving.
It's pretty different from what we see now but I'll bet in 20 years that cars built on such a setup will be substantially faster than today's cars while using much less gas.
For the average family commuter car I suspect the arrangement that will be most common in 10 to 15 years will be a small gas motor powering the rear wheels through a CVT and one or two electric motors turning the front wheels with no transmission. The front wheels will only be powered at low speed and heavy acceleration (and possibly as part of the stability control system) while the rear wheels will handle cruising at higher speeds nearly exclusively. It doesn't take a ton of HP to keep a car moving once it's at speed so a 100 to 150 HP motor would be plenty for all but the largest vehicles while the electric front wheels can supply 300+ ft lbs of instantly available torque the get the thing moving.
It's pretty different from what we see now but I'll bet in 20 years that cars built on such a setup will be substantially faster than today's cars while using much less gas.
02-13-2009, 01:44 PM
#963
I was referring to the old TL-S' MT. Although I presume the new MT is also non SH-AWD compatible.
Just going by what Jeff at TOV is saying, doesn't look like we'll ever see an MT. If there was some hint at getting one next year or getting one in a Type-S, I don't think any of us could complain about not seeing it in the '10. But like he said, enthusiasts who want the MT are typically also the early adopters.
Any proof to that in your experience Colin? Did MT sales go down over the lifespan of the first gen?
Just going by what Jeff at TOV is saying, doesn't look like we'll ever see an MT. If there was some hint at getting one next year or getting one in a Type-S, I don't think any of us could complain about not seeing it in the '10. But like he said, enthusiasts who want the MT are typically also the early adopters.
Any proof to that in your experience Colin? Did MT sales go down over the lifespan of the first gen?
02-13-2009, 02:00 PM
#964
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Alternatively the electric motors could be in the back and the axle and differential could be eliminated but by putting them in the front and having them pivot with the wheels, you can eliminate all the mechanical complexity and parasitic loss of the CV joints.
I called this as far back as 1999 and my expectation has not changed at all. The time table was pushed back by W rolling back all the scheduled CAFE increases but I still think it's going to happen. Time will tell.
02-13-2009, 02:05 PM
#965
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I'm very happy with the I4 MT. A V6 is just icing on the cake. The current I4 is a rather large engine in its own right and I have no problem speeding ahead of most other cars, and it's a lot of fun to drive. If Acura decides to do what they have done with the TL and offer a type-s for the MMC I'll be happy to wait.
02-13-2009, 03:28 PM
#966
02-13-2009, 03:35 PM
#967
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FWD is pushed by companies like Honda because it's cheaper for them, don't think its for alturistic reasons. Asking the front tires to move the car, direct it, and hold traction is just too much... just drive a 2008 TL Type-S MT. Audi moved from FWD to AWD a long time ago (a path Acura is now going down) and they only keep the FWD models in the States because they can show low lease/purchase payments and to keep a mooch model.
I know of not one luxury car that is FWD nor any sports cars (and the Civic Mugen does not qualify). Even Honda had the common sense to put RWD into the S2000 making that the only RWD car they make.
FWD is great for utilitarian/econo boxes but that's about it... IMO. And in Europe the TSX is an econo box (as much as Honda makes one).
The day BMW or Mercedes makes a FWD car and sells it in the U.S. is the day I will buy a Renault Fuego and take it ice racing.
I know of not one luxury car that is FWD nor any sports cars (and the Civic Mugen does not qualify). Even Honda had the common sense to put RWD into the S2000 making that the only RWD car they make.
FWD is great for utilitarian/econo boxes but that's about it... IMO. And in Europe the TSX is an econo box (as much as Honda makes one).
The day BMW or Mercedes makes a FWD car and sells it in the U.S. is the day I will buy a Renault Fuego and take it ice racing.
Last edited by CL6; 02-13-2009 at 03:39 PM.
02-13-2009, 03:47 PM
#969
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FWD is more efficient, and that's a fact. The future is small engines high efficiency and FWD it FTW. RWD, creates more losses, more weight, and it's less efficient. RWD is still supreme for high power engines, but the fact is engines are getting smaller not bigger, meaning FWD is a better option.
02-13-2009, 04:12 PM
#970
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I'm very happy with the I4 MT. A V6 is just icing on the cake. The current I4 is a rather large engine in its own right and I have no problem speeding ahead of most other cars, and it's a lot of fun to drive. If Acura decides to do what they have done with the TL and offer a type-s for the MMC I'll be happy to wait.
02-13-2009, 04:28 PM
#971
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TL-S had to deal with the same problems and managed.
Bottom line, if they cared enough to create a new MT solely for the SH-AWD TL (I doubt even 5% will opt for the MT in that boat of a car) there should be no reason not to recycle an MT for the V6 TSX. Its a shame. But whats done is done. Won't stop me from going out and at least test driving the V6.
Bottom line, if they cared enough to create a new MT solely for the SH-AWD TL (I doubt even 5% will opt for the MT in that boat of a car) there should be no reason not to recycle an MT for the V6 TSX. Its a shame. But whats done is done. Won't stop me from going out and at least test driving the V6.
02-13-2009, 04:34 PM
#972
Burning Brakes
02-13-2009, 04:34 PM
#973
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In the case of the Audi A4 going from FWD to AWD seems to result in a decrease of 2 MPG and with Infiniti going from RWD to AWD results in a 1 MPG penalty. For the CR-V FWD to AWD you get 1 MPG less. To me, to have a better balanced, better handling car I'd give up driving 17 to 34 miles less per tank. Plus tire wear in FWD cars is higher than with the other modes of locomotion.
Like I said... econo boxes and vans you'll do fine but for everything else... no way!
Like I said... econo boxes and vans you'll do fine but for everything else... no way!
02-13-2009, 04:35 PM
#974
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I would naturaly assume MT is coming next year but it's the fact that the IS350 doesn't come in manual that has me scared. Acura might be realizing some same reality as Lexus.
They wouldn't hold back a manual on account of torque steer. They clearly believe torque steer isn't a problem.
I hate automatic for the same reason it's less safe; it disengages the driver and leaves them in a relaxed sedate stupor. I love manual because no matter how tired I might be it wakes me up.
Also this might be obvious but maybe some people are unaware; the awesome thing about manual is you can make the engine produce as much horsepower as you want the exact moment you want it, so suppose there is some slow asshole doddling along, you can drop it in third and speed around him. With an automatic you have to bury you foot in the floor and wait a while for the car to figure out what's going on, not to mention the power suckage that occurs due to the AT itself. I submit that MT isn't just a preference, it's literaly more fun.
They wouldn't hold back a manual on account of torque steer. They clearly believe torque steer isn't a problem.
I hate automatic for the same reason it's less safe; it disengages the driver and leaves them in a relaxed sedate stupor. I love manual because no matter how tired I might be it wakes me up.
Also this might be obvious but maybe some people are unaware; the awesome thing about manual is you can make the engine produce as much horsepower as you want the exact moment you want it, so suppose there is some slow asshole doddling along, you can drop it in third and speed around him. With an automatic you have to bury you foot in the floor and wait a while for the car to figure out what's going on, not to mention the power suckage that occurs due to the AT itself. I submit that MT isn't just a preference, it's literaly more fun.
02-13-2009, 04:37 PM
#975
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AWD is the best. It provides most of the traction of 4wd without the added weight, and most of improved handling of RWD without the loss of traction. FWD is an economy setup. The physics of pulling and directing with the same weels will always prevent it from being optimum.
02-13-2009, 04:38 PM
#976
I think it's funny that when the RL was dying they brought the TL up to take it's place and now that the TL is struggling they're bringing the TSX up to take it's place. Oh the irony 
lol.
Anyway, I don't think the TSX or TL should have increased in size as much as they did. The TSX was already the perfect size before they made it 3G TL sized. All they needed to do was increase the width to make room for a V6. The TL was already nearly the size of the 5 series and ES and CTS. It didn't need to increase in size 6 inches to be nearly the size of the 7 series and LS. The RL was the only Acura that needed to grow. The RL is about 6 inches too small to be a flagship.
lol.Anyway, I don't think the TSX or TL should have increased in size as much as they did. The TSX was already the perfect size before they made it 3G TL sized. All they needed to do was increase the width to make room for a V6. The TL was already nearly the size of the 5 series and ES and CTS. It didn't need to increase in size 6 inches to be nearly the size of the 7 series and LS. The RL was the only Acura that needed to grow. The RL is about 6 inches too small to be a flagship.
02-13-2009, 10:39 PM
#977
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In the case of the Audi A4 going from FWD to AWD seems to result in a decrease of 2 MPG and with Infiniti going from RWD to AWD results in a 1 MPG penalty. For the CR-V FWD to AWD you get 1 MPG less. To me, to have a better balanced, better handling car I'd give up driving 17 to 34 miles less per tank. Plus tire wear in FWD cars is higher than with the other modes of locomotion.
Like I said... econo boxes and vans you'll do fine but for everything else... no way!
Like I said... econo boxes and vans you'll do fine but for everything else... no way!
The fact is the TSX's exterior dimensions are greater than most vehicles in it's class and sadly it's interior has very little to show for it. The same can be said of the TL. Both should have stayed around the same size as their predecessors.
02-13-2009, 10:53 PM
#978
Interms of RIMs TSX is now ahead of the pack by providing 17inch and 18inch as standard on 4cylinder and Six Cylinder.
02-14-2009, 05:33 AM
#979
it's a car-drive it
It also doesn't help that most younger people these days don't know how to drive manual cars because they didn't grow up with them. Autos have been the mainstay for a while now, so less people are learning how to drive on manuals. There just aren't enough people who change their minds later in life and want to learn how to drive manual. Enthusiasts are a very small part of the population, obviously.
02-14-2009, 09:07 AM
#981
Three Wheelin'
Well MT is more fun *IF* you live somewhere where it can be used to its fullest potential. Where I live is very, very urban w/ a red light or stop sign literally every few feet. On top of that traffic is a nightmare, and on top of that yet I have a semi-bad left knee that gets worse as I get older. So the rewards of an MT can't be experienced, and it is basically pointless for me to own one at this stage of the game. A second car, sure, but not as my daily driver.
An MT works very well but it is an old technology, and one that is costly to repair if not treated right [the clutch]. I totally agree that the CVT, DSG or whatever else comes along is the wave of the future, and I find these transmissions very exciting...they are a great compromise and the best of both worlds IMO.
Here is the official press release in Chicago on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK1vW...eature=related
Okay, so...is it sick of me to already be making plans to possibly sell my 4 cyl outright and get the V6 later this year?!? Okay okay I'm only joking...sort of.
An MT works very well but it is an old technology, and one that is costly to repair if not treated right [the clutch]. I totally agree that the CVT, DSG or whatever else comes along is the wave of the future, and I find these transmissions very exciting...they are a great compromise and the best of both worlds IMO.
Here is the official press release in Chicago on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK1vW...eature=related
Okay, so...is it sick of me to already be making plans to possibly sell my 4 cyl outright and get the V6 later this year?!? Okay okay I'm only joking...sort of.
02-14-2009, 10:07 AM
#983
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If people only bought cars which we efficient the Element would sell in greater numbers. I'm not interested in buying the most efficient car. Being efficient isn't always about being fun to drive, about handling well, or about performance.
Next time I'm in the market for an econo box or van I'll be interested... Acura has no business selling cars based on how efficient they are... being a luxury line they have to take it all into account... that means RWD or AWD.
Next time I'm in the market for an econo box or van I'll be interested... Acura has no business selling cars based on how efficient they are... being a luxury line they have to take it all into account... that means RWD or AWD.
It's not about which is better handling. We're talking about which is a more efficient setup and that would be FWD. Your own example proves that
The fact is the TSX's exterior dimensions are greater than most vehicles in it's class and sadly it's interior has very little to show for it. The same can be said of the TL. Both should have stayed around the same size as their predecessors.
The fact is the TSX's exterior dimensions are greater than most vehicles in it's class and sadly it's interior has very little to show for it. The same can be said of the TL. Both should have stayed around the same size as their predecessors.
02-14-2009, 10:59 AM
#984
Senior Moderator
When I first learned to drive many many many years ago my parents and almost all my relatives did not have cars with manual transmission. My first car was a 1971 Super Beetle that had MT. My brother taught me how to drive it on the roads in Bergen County, NJ. I thought I would never get the hang of it but overtime it bacame easier. I taught my daughter, who is the same age as you, to drive manual. She prefers automatic but she knows MT. Most of nieces and nephews drive cars with manual.
She did eventually learn, though, on her new car at the time which was a Mazda 3. She keep saying I should learn, since I like cars and whatnot, but it just seems like a pain to me. Plus I might be moving somewhere with a lot of hills/mountains, and I just don't want to deal with that as a new MT driver. I did think about taking lessons, though, before I purchased my auto TSX 4 years ago.My bf doesn't know how to drive stick either, so that would potentially become an issue if we decide to get hitched, possibly sometime this year.
02-14-2009, 01:13 PM
#986
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Driving a MT means you can drive any type of vehicle out there. What if you get stuck and there's only a MT for you to drive? There are some basic skills everyone should know... driving a stick is one of them. You might go your entire life and never need to know but it's better to know and not need to use it than to need to use it and not know it.
2 of my friends drive MT cars. It was funny listening to one of them, who just learned about 2 years ago. She kept complaining that she was stalling the car in traffic and people were getting pissed off. Ha She did eventually learn, though, on her new car at the time which was a Mazda 3. She keep saying I should learn, since I like cars and whatnot, but it just seems like a pain to me. Plus I might be moving somewhere with a lot of hills/mountains, and I just don't want to deal with that as a new MT driver. I did think about taking lessons, though, before I purchased my auto TSX 4 years ago.
My bf doesn't know how to drive stick either, so that would potentially become an issue if we decide to get hitched, possibly sometime this year.
She did eventually learn, though, on her new car at the time which was a Mazda 3. She keep saying I should learn, since I like cars and whatnot, but it just seems like a pain to me. Plus I might be moving somewhere with a lot of hills/mountains, and I just don't want to deal with that as a new MT driver. I did think about taking lessons, though, before I purchased my auto TSX 4 years ago.My bf doesn't know how to drive stick either, so that would potentially become an issue if we decide to get hitched, possibly sometime this year.
02-14-2009, 01:23 PM
#987
it's a car-drive it
2 of my friends drive MT cars. It was funny listening to one of them, who just learned about 2 years ago. She kept complaining that she was stalling the car in traffic and people were getting pissed off. Ha She did eventually learn, though, on her new car at the time which was a Mazda 3. She keep saying I should learn, since I like cars and whatnot, but it just seems like a pain to me. Plus I might be moving somewhere with a lot of hills/mountains, and I just don't want to deal with that as a new MT driver. I did think about taking lessons, though, before I purchased my auto TSX 4 years ago.
My bf doesn't know how to drive stick either, so that would potentially become an issue if we decide to get hitched, possibly sometime this year.
She did eventually learn, though, on her new car at the time which was a Mazda 3. She keep saying I should learn, since I like cars and whatnot, but it just seems like a pain to me. Plus I might be moving somewhere with a lot of hills/mountains, and I just don't want to deal with that as a new MT driver. I did think about taking lessons, though, before I purchased my auto TSX 4 years ago.My bf doesn't know how to drive stick either, so that would potentially become an issue if we decide to get hitched, possibly sometime this year.
02-14-2009, 04:33 PM
#988
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2 of my friends drive MT cars. It was funny listening to one of them, who just learned about 2 years ago. She kept complaining that she was stalling the car in traffic and people were getting pissed off. Ha She did eventually learn, though, on her new car at the time which was a Mazda 3. She keep saying I should learn, since I like cars and whatnot, but it just seems like a pain to me. Plus I might be moving somewhere with a lot of hills/mountains, and I just don't want to deal with that as a new MT driver. I did think about taking lessons, though, before I purchased my auto TSX 4 years ago.
My bf doesn't know how to drive stick either, so that would potentially become an issue if we decide to get hitched, possibly sometime this year.
She did eventually learn, though, on her new car at the time which was a Mazda 3. She keep saying I should learn, since I like cars and whatnot, but it just seems like a pain to me. Plus I might be moving somewhere with a lot of hills/mountains, and I just don't want to deal with that as a new MT driver. I did think about taking lessons, though, before I purchased my auto TSX 4 years ago.My bf doesn't know how to drive stick either, so that would potentially become an issue if we decide to get hitched, possibly sometime this year.
02-14-2009, 07:11 PM
#989
all this talk about a 3.5 v6 in 09 tsx might cause a lot of Hula
Just out of curiosity what then would happen to the 3.5 TL -S, they wud need to put a V8 or a Bigger V6 in the TL.......
it seems likely that Acura may attract younger buyers but loose buyers in the Larger TL section since they took the CL away.
Not many youngerz buy the RL.
02-14-2009, 07:15 PM
#990
Racer
How do you think the performance will be with the V6 TSX still having the FWD? Is it better to have the AWD and RWD with so much power?
Most cars are built with autos. There is a chance that you might end up needing to drive a manual but the chance may be slim. I agree, you will miss some extra power and the enjoyment of having more control of the car.
Most cars are built with autos. There is a chance that you might end up needing to drive a manual but the chance may be slim. I agree, you will miss some extra power and the enjoyment of having more control of the car.
02-15-2009, 04:12 AM
#991
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The above post prompts me to wonder what auto reviews will say about the V6 model. The big criticism of the '09 was the electric steering. Most '09 drivers adapt after a few weeks but the reviewers didn't have the car that long so they claimed the car had no on-center feel and that it lacked responsiveness.
I suspect that with the V6 model also seeming overly sensitive, numb, and a FWD they will claim that the car is difficult to control durring a hard acceleration and that it's all around unpredictable with an open throttle. They will say that it's a good value but that it lacks the refinement and/or nuance of other cars in the class. It's good for passing but not tracking.
I'll disagree but that's what I believe they will say.
I suspect that with the V6 model also seeming overly sensitive, numb, and a FWD they will claim that the car is difficult to control durring a hard acceleration and that it's all around unpredictable with an open throttle. They will say that it's a good value but that it lacks the refinement and/or nuance of other cars in the class. It's good for passing but not tracking.
I'll disagree but that's what I believe they will say.
02-15-2009, 04:40 PM
#992
Maybe Honda "knows" how many potential buyers that have in their pocket, and based on this, they only want to gear up production of a manual for 2 model years? If they are only going to make 3000 of the car, it's better to 'cram' it into 2 years vs.making 500 a year for 5 years?
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Automa...-14367968.html
02-16-2009, 03:40 AM
#996
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TSX V6 video
Last edited by zxxxboy; 02-16-2009 at 03:42 AM.
02-16-2009, 11:56 AM
#997
Racer
I am going to wait until I drive it to make my judgement. I hope it drives like a TSX. Granted I have yet to drive an 09 but the 1st gen was one of the most entertaining drives I've had in a 4 door. If the V6 comes in Milano Red that may sway my decision....
02-16-2009, 01:26 PM
#998
OMG! the V6 TSX has hood struts and not the prop rod! All this extra weight over the front wheels will ruin the handling! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97KU4nZP0Gg&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97KU4nZP0Gg&NR=1
02-16-2009, 01:55 PM
#1000