SpicyMikey

I love the styling of most MB's. But, I'm pretty sure there will never be one in my driveway unless someone gives it to me. I can't overpay for something, and an MB is a totally over priced product. Amazing they sell so many just by marketing an image.

As P.T. Barnum said; There's a sucker born every minute.

White92

I really don't think they hired the guy to make Acura's look like Mercedes. I think there's alot more to it.

CL6

No they hired a Honda guy to make them look like Accords!

GoHawks

Again, with all due respect, it's no wonder you don't sell many. My dealer sells a ton of RLs, and they actually do market and SELL the car.

gavine

What's with the pictures? Are you implying that the two cars look alike? I see no resemblance other than that they're both four door sedans.

Mike_TX

Uhhh ... he's illustrating that they ARE different-looking.

.
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SpicyMikey

I think the RL has very typical 2007 sedan style lines and curves. That's one of the reasons it doesn't turn heads. It looks common for a 2004-7 sedan.

So, yes, it has similarities to the Accord. So what. People say that like it's a bad thing. The Accord is a fine looking car. Do people want it to look like a Prius? That will help it standout.

The thing is, it has similarities to a lot of cars. It's just a very common look right now in this generation of sedans; sloping hood, high trunk ridge, tapered headlight lens. In fact, I think the 07 MB E look more like an RL then the Accord! So what does this all mean? Um, nothing that I can see.

GoHawks

CL6

We are in BMW 5-Series country where the highest number of monthly registrations ranks that model as #1 in the county. I think Acura is in the top 15 with the MDX.

Also, I can only sell an RL if someone submits an Internet request for one and those rarely happen. I did manage to sell two RLs this year! But I don't appreciate the crack. One only needs to look at national sales numbers to see how 'well' the RL is going.............. that has nothing to do with me.

And my remark about the Accord/RL... well that comes from customer feedback.

The 5-series might not be as 'good' of a car but it is distinctive looking.

SpicyMikey

I honestly don't see anything distinctive about it. It's got the same three characteristics that most current 4 door sedans have; sloping roof, high trunk ridge, tappered headlight lens. That's the look right now in the mid 2000's. Everyone is copying everyone. Just like you can look at sedan from the mid 90's and immediately KNOW it's from the mid 90's; flat trunk set at same height as hood, vertical grill, etc.

Do me a favor; put your thumb over the grill and tell me what is so distinctive about the BMW in that picture. Doesn't exactly jump out at me.

CL6

For one, the headlights. The wheels. The curves around the fenders and hood. The side turn signals on the doors. The lower body spoiler. The way the creases and curves flow. The Angel Eye headlights. I see a BMW 5-Series coming at me in my rearview mirror I know it is a serious car.

GoHawks

BMW outselling Acura has more to do with past success than current product, and the sales people have nothing to do with the 5 series outselling the RL. BMW could slap their logo on a turd and it would still outsell most anything out there.

Look at all the outrage with the Bangle design and I-Drive. People were polarized with the styling, but people still bought them because it was a BMW. People HATE I-Drive and it's been universally criticized, but people still buy the cars.

I'm sorry if you're offended by my remark, but I still think that unless people come in like mindless sheep wanting to buy a product, most salespeople know little to nothing about the product they're offering in order to sell it.

I remember when the 2nd gen TL came out. 3 month waiting lists. Doesn't take too much to really sell that product. You just become an order taker.

Same thing for when the 2nd gen RL first came out... weren't they selling at sticker? Same can be said for the 1st gen MDX, and to a lesser extent the 2nd gen MDX.

The RL doesn't have the heritage that a BMW has for sales. As a result, it has to rely on SELLING the car. Marketing it.

I asked my salesguy why the RL doesn't sell well. He said that most people at first blush don't see the value in why the RL is more expensive than the TL (which pretty much sells itself). He went on to say, "but I do, and I point out those differences".

Let's face it, most of the things that make the RL "different" than the TL don't jump out and scream at you. SH-AWD? Most salespeople can't even explain how it works. My sales guy spent quite a bit of time going over the technology of the vehicle with me. He's a rarity, since most probably would be looking for a key to start the car.

The blame still falls in the lap of Acura since they haven't done much to educate the public, much less the salesforce on what differentiates the RL from other vehicles. Especially when most are more than happy taking orders instead of being true sales consultants.

GoHawks

The wheels I will give you. The RL is cursed with the most boring set of wheels to ever be put on a vehicle.

I've said it before. If the RL hand an L on the hood or the BMW logo, we would be having a different conversation.

BMW interiors are stark, interiors have a cheap looking grain on the plastic. THis isn't just me saying it. I've heard and read from others.

But that's the difference isn't it? It's on the inside, and that may not matter to those who are more interested in what others see when they are driving down the road.

CL6

Yeah people hated the Bangle design so much everyone imitates it. Where do you think the RL got its butt from? Doesn't the RL have an iDrive knob (better executed but still)? And the 7-Series got killed when the iDrive appeared on it (why resale of that model is so poor).

The RL was at MSRP for about 3 days then it dropped like a rock. The MDX was still selling at $1,500 off of MSRP 3 years after it came out... TL was selling for the same 2 years after it came out. So........... you can't compare the two.

There is a reason why the BMW is so highly rated by every car magazine out there and why Acura, when they trained us on the RL, had one next to a BMW to show how exactly alike the two cars were in their measurements. Nobody benchmarks their car against the RL, do they?

And I probably know more about any current Acura product than anybody you could put me up against and you just cannot make somebody see the light about the RL unless they are already pre-disposed to it. Maybe on the East Coast where snow and rain are helping in the AWD department but in California it has landed low in the sales numbers.

Look, BMW and Mercedes will bleed themselves to death on their leases to move the cars in the RL's class. Acura will not do that, hence why their lease is so much more.

BMW built heritage, that's how they got to where they are. Acura has had 20 years so there are no excuses about it.

I have never said that the RL is a bad product, poorly designed, or even badly executed.... but don't paint an unrealistic picture of it just because you bought one.

CL6

Look, on the inside the RL has one of the best cabins I've ever seen on any car at any price. But we were talking 'exterior' weren't we?

GoHawks

To go on with my rant. I live near the North Shore suburbs of Chicago. While I may not live in the most affluent suburbs, I am surrounded by some areas that have big money.

I regularly see 5-6 RLs EVERYDAY on my commute to and from work.

I also more than my share of Lexus LS and LXs, BMW 5 & 7 series, Infiniti Ms, Jags, etc.

My point is that there must be something going on up by us. Most of you are stating that you may only see one or two RLs a day or maybe a week. Again, I see 5-6 RLs A DAY! The RL must be competing.

What's different? Market incentive is the same for everyone, so my conclusion is that it has to be the dealerships.

Now there are three Acura dealerships within a 20 mile radius of where I live, but most of the RLs I see have the same license plate frame, and that is the dealership where I bought mine. They must be doing something right.

CL6

I see maybe 1 RL per week. When I visited DC I saw 3 in a week. You live in snow country and the AWD has got to be the reason. There are a ton of Acura dealerships in my area (at least 12-15 in a 100 mile radius. The RDX sells better in Seattle than in San Fran. Got to be the weather.

GoHawks

Exactly my point.

A revised version of I-Drive is offered on both th 5-series and 3-series, and as much as it's hated, they still sell. Why? Because it's a BMW.

Why does the MDX (which is basically a taller version of the RL) sell better? Because it an SUV. Almost identical technology at a similar price. People don't have problems plunking that kind of money for THAT Acura because it's an SUV.

I don't understand your point here. If you're trying to cut into the sales of your leading competitor, you're going to compare yourself against them. Everyone knows that Acuras were never regarded in the same light as BMW.

My point exactly. Selling SH-AWD based on foul weather handling is missing the poiht isn't it? I'm sure that most 2nd gen MDX owners have no clue on how the AWD system in their vehicles is different than the rest. As far as they're concerned, it's an SUV and it has AWD.

Proves my point on marketing.

True. Honda was innovative enough to start the brand of Acura, but others like Toyota/Lexus truly created the image. Acura never really figured out what they wanted to be. They have always been conservative. Look at how long it took for them to finally put a V6 in the Accord. For years they said that the 4 cylinder delivered good compromise of performance and fuel economy. Sound familiar?

GoHawks

It's not like the RL is the only choice. You can purchase an M35x, 535x, or a Lexus GS350 AWD. Actually I see more RLs and Ms than I see GS' around here. AWD or RWD.

neuronbob

I will jump in here with my experience.

Around here, I see more 5-series (Bangle-ized...ewww) and GS300s (AWD) than RLs, and I only rarely see Infiniti Ms at all. People do gravitate toward that little blue and white roundel, and the big L, because those two brands have successfully marketed their brand so that it identifies with something.

Acura hasn't done that. Salesmen have little to do with what is essentially a corporate decision. In Acura's case, they have decided to market in a way that leaves people questioning what the brand is about. This has been a problem since the Legend was killed off over ten years ago. In my opinion, if they can't or won't do the marketing right, they should get out of the way, sell TLs and RLs as high-end Hondas, and let people who want a luxury car move to Lexus, BMW, or Benz. Outside of the TL and MDX, that's pretty much what corporate Acura has done already. Maybe, like Apple, Acura will come back from the near-dead. If they don't score with the 4G TL and the 3G RL, they will BE dead.

/rant off

GoHawks

I couldn't agree more.

CL6

Well, the Bangle butt proved unpopular in the press at first but, really, everyone is imitating it so who is leading design? BMW. No German company does technology well, but the car has so many other great things going for it that the iDrive can't do that much damage.


The MDX sells so well because it has three rows of seats. Until very recently, that didn't exist out there in the market. And the most cross-shopped car against the MDX is the Lexus RX-series even though there is no third row seat. Also, the MDX appeals largely to women while the RL appeals largely to men so you are comparing apples to oranges.


You were saying that with BMW they are crappy cars but people want status. While I'm sure there are many people who do buy for that reason many do not. The BMW just plain drives better IMO. I have driven every type of BMW out there going back to the 8-Series. Also, BMW has great leases and Acura does not. I think you are not giving BMW enough credit and giving shallow people too much credit here.



People don't care to know how their AWD system is different, they only want to know if they need to use chains or not. That's all they care about. Acura thinks SH-AWD is so great. Well the customer doesn't care. They asked Subaru executives what was so great about their cars. They said it was the Boxer engine. Guess what, nobody who owns a Subaru knows what a Boxer engine is. What Corp thinks is important does not necessarily translate into what shoppers think is important.

Doesn't prove any point, really.


You were the one who raised the reputation of BMW. How do you think BMW got that reputation? By being a status symbol? No, by building cars that were great to drive.

Honda's willingness to compromise on behalf of the customer without their input is why they're taking a crap now. Honda builds the most fuel efficient fleet in the US. Do people think that? No, they think TOYOTA. Why? Because Honda can't deliver the message with the products.

static808

As mentioned by neuronbob, Acura is a TL/MDX shop. Even the TSX was a shot in the dark when they brought it over and realized they can make some cash from the Euro Accord.

The next generation lineup will all need to be blockbuster hits. 4Gen TL, 3Gen RL, 2Gen TSX and whatever else they want to add. I'm sure they know that too.

The redesigned MDX is a winner, the RDX is OK....Acura can't shoot for 50% for the sedan refresh, they need a clean sweep if they are to be serious.

Maybe Acura can do a turnaround like Apple. We should know in a year or two.

neuronbob

I would love for my next car to be my fourth Acura.

GoHawks

True. It's also now on the S-Class, but we're not just talking about the butt. We're talking about the entire design. I personally don't think that the design of the 5 series flows. I don't think it's ugly, but I don't think it's the be all/end all.

I think the new 3-series coupe is drop dead gorgeous, and I'm a big fan of the 6-series.

The MDX wasn't the first SUV with three rows of seats. I believe the Durango was one of the first. My '98 Land Cruiser had 3 rows as well. Maybe not in the same class, but that alone isn't what made the MDX popular (IMHO). The MDX was popular for the same reasons that the 2nd and 3rd gen TL was. Value.

Lot's of features for the price in a SUV that didn't drive like a truck.

Tell me where I said BMW builds crappy cars? I acknowledge that BMW is obsessed about driving dynamics FIRST, all the rest be damned. There's a reason why the 3-Series is considered a benchmark.

But just like most people don't realize, or care about SH-AWD, I will contest that most people who buy BMWs don't drive them at 9/10s to 10/10s to truly appreciate the neutrality of those cars. The buy them because of the image. Most would not appreciate the difference a 3-series brings over a TL. Tell me how else could they sell such a piece of crap as an X3? It's not even a real BMW, but it does have the emblem.

I did say that the interiors looked cheap.

Didn't I say the same thing here? Are we in violent agreement?

Agreed, but see my point about people not truly driving their cars to appreciate the driving dynamics of these cars.

Didn't I imply the same thing when I used my example of the V6 in the Accord?

CL6

Okay this is all getting too confusing. I think the 3-Series and the 5-Series are pretty impressive looking. I do not like the butt on the 6-Series. Some may find it a stark look but it is not bland at all. This takes guts to build something different.

The MDX was really the first car-based 'luxury' SUV with three rows. I heard time and time again how people don't want the add-on seats in the back and don't want a massive hunk of steel (Durango, Suburban, etc.) so what was left but the MDX? Many complained about the bland interior, which has been corrected in the new MDX. But the competition just wasn't there, either.

The first X3, like the first ML, was a POS. The current one just beat the RDX:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...w-x3-30si.html

The interiors are not great. As I said, the RL has a world class interior second to none IMO.

I read 'BMW' and 'turd' and made a mistake in how it sounded. Sorry for that.

Most people do not drive their cars to their limits, but knowing that every car magazine loves how a BMW handles does not hurt the brand. Acura ties to get a BMW ride but they don't quite do it right so it comes off as bumpy (RDX article in Car & Driver for one) or there is not enough power to push it (RL reviews for another).

Acura needs to produce and RL that exceeds the 5-Series, not 'matches' it in their opinion, in order to do well. The RL may have 'timeless styling' (what Acura says) but I think the 5-Series says luxury car.

Overall, we agree. But even the best salesman cannot sell an RL to someone who is not willing to consider it as an equal to the 5-Series. That is why the selling price is so low.

GoHawks

Agree that Acura needs to build an RL that surpasses the 5 series. Ironically since your throwing C&D articles around, in the following comparison test the RL went up against ...

Audi A6 4.2 Quattro
Cadillac STS V8
Infiniti M45 Sport
Jaguar S-Type VP
Lexus GS 430
MB E350

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...rt-sedans.html

Guess where the RL landed and where the BMW landed?

530i (not the xi mind you, but the RWD i) 6th place
RL 2nd place

The 8 cylinder M45 came in 1st.

In the following article...

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...5/article.html

the RL went up against other AWD competitors

M35x
GS 300 AWD (Written before the 350 came out)
530xi
A6 3.2 Quattro

1st - Acura RL
2nd - A6
3rd - M35x
4th - BMW 530xi
5th - GS 300 AWD

In the following, the RL went up against other $50K vehicles from Japan

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...8/article.html

1st - GS430
2nd - Acura RL
3rd - Infiniti M45

Not bad considering that the RL was the only car burdened with a V6 and AWD.

In the following Motor Trend test, the results are as follows...

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...ort_comparison

1st - M35
2nd - Acura RL
3rd - BMW 530i (again not the xi)
4th - A6 3.2 Quattro
5th - Caddy STS V6
6th - Jaguar S-Type

So in every comparison I have ever read, the 5 series (admittedly the V6 version) has never beat the RL.

My point in all of this is not to be argumentative. You yourself said that it doesn't hurt when the car mags give your vehicle positive press, but unfortunately that has not helped the RL. Which I think proves my point that the issue isn't really with the RL, but with perception of the Acura brand.

Toe to toe, the RL seems to hold it's own, if not outright beat out the competition, but let's face it, the Acura logo doesn't carry the same cachet as the BMW logo.

SpicyMikey

Wow, just came online from yesterday afternoon and see Gohawks and CL6 have been going at it. I love a good debate. Sorry I missed it.

I think GoHawks last post illustrates the problem well. There's really nothing wrong with this car. It's the image Acura portrays relative to the Lux market that is broken. If people see something better looking about the BMW 5 versus the RL, well, I think it's their brain playing tricks on them from marketing brainwashing. As far as value; their's no comparison. As far as performance; 99% of the drivers will never even notice OR care.

Acura: Fix your image, leave the car alone.

SpicyMikey

Sorry to respond to my own post, but, I wanted to clarify something. When I said Acura should "fix" their image. I meant to say "change". There's nothing wrong with Acura's image if you're a move up Honda or Toyota buyer. It's not a broken image, it's just the WRONG image to sell a lux sedan. If they want to court the $50k European Lux sedan buyer (where BMW and MB rule), then they better change their image to reflect that. Why, because car buyers fall into basically two categories;
1) Primarily as something to be driven (a form of transportation)
2) Primarily as something to be worn (a piece of clothing)

We can all have a mixture of the two, but we probably can slate ourselves into one of these two for the most part. I fall into first category. I suspect most people who have purchased an RL fall into that category. These people want the most comfortable, reliable, and safest form of transportation they can afford and, to a somewhat lesser extend, look good doing it. When you use that perspective, Acura and Lexus are the winners. BMW, MB, etc. are in the rearview mirror.

The second group puts a lot of weight into the perception that their car portrays for them as they "wear" it around town. For them, mechanical value is less important. They will pay extra and/or spend time in the shop, as long as they think they look better driving it. From that perspective, an Acura isn't even an option, no matter how good it looks.

You can't fight this mindset by changing the wheels to 19" or by putting a slightly different grill on the car. It won't matter. It's the badge and what it represents. That's where I have to disagree with CL6. I think Gohawks is on target and said it best earlier. You could slap a BMW badge on a turd and it would outsell an RL. The only clarification to that statement is this; it would outsell an RL for that second group who "wear" their cars as a badge of honor. It wouldn't outsell an RL to the rest of us.

Acura has to change (not fix) their image if they want to step into the ring with these guys. It can be done. Lexus did it without too much difficulty. It just takes money and lots of intelligent marketing. The average person is easily persuaded. Celebrity product endorcements, sponsoring the Masters next spring, paying Movie studios to have an RL constantly appear in movies in a luxurious and flatering way. You do that stuff and, bam, you can completely manufacturer an image in 2 years (3 years tops). As the expression go's; Perception IS reality

amcl

The lights are looking more like the accord. Maybe the defection between MB and Honda designers go both ways.

S550:


Accord:

CL6

I do see the two cars looking alike!

Good articles on the RL. I have all those from when they were published. Perhaps it is the Acura 'cachet' or the styling or some combination of the two. I appreciate the time you spent posting those articles.

I would love to see what it would be if the RL looked like the 5-Series. Or maybe BMW just has that kind of brand loyalty?

Tully44

I think the 2008 Accords took styling cues from the current RL. Also, is it me or does the instrument panel of the Honda Fit look similar to the RLs?

I never have seen a resemblence between the current Accord and RL. But it looks like as time passes, Honda is sharing styling cues across platform. That is not a good thing.

SpicyMikey

Or could it be that car designers are ALL just moving towards a more sleak and less boxy body style right now. We know styles go in and out of fad. Certain features become more popular at times and then fade out (is two tone paint jobs ready for a comeback yet )

Hey, maybe Acura was just slightly ahead of the crowd in '05. Now MB (and even BMW) styling is looking more and more like the RL with their newer versions.

GoHawks

I think if you try hard enough, you can see similarities in any vehicle.

I do think you see Honda's DNA in all the Acuras with the exception of the NSX.

Look at the rear of a Camry and an ES350, and now the ES, GS and LS all have familial lines.

Heck, you're even beginning to see it if you look at Infiniti and Nissan.

The point though is that for some reason, people more closely identify Honda and Acura, and as a result, the similarities, than they do other cars. Perhaps it's because Honda was the first Japanese maker to dip into the luxury segment. Whatever the reasons, it doesn't seem to negatively impact Toyota, or Nissan.

Up until recently, all Acuras still had Honda stamped on all the glass, which wasn't the case with other makers. Not that I care mind you. The car is what it is, but for the fashion concious car buyer it does make a big deal.

SpicyMikey

Yes, good thing they stopped that. You're right, it doesn't effect the car, but, if someone buys an Acura they don't want it to say Honda. Not only because Honda is a "lower" brand. If I was buying a Honda I wouldn't want parts saying Acura. It's just looks like the company can't keep their parts deptartments straight. It's stupid looking.

static808

GoHawks,

Nice write up on the magazine articles. I think those magazine articles show that Acura does have great products and engineers, its just in the delivery...as in marketing.

The way SH-AWD performed in those tests probably had something to do with BMW's move to a torque vector AWD system in its next-gen AWD offerings. I mean beating a 530i in some of the slalom tests and weighing 500lb more is pretty amazing.

Hopefully Acura breaks the mold and distances its design cues away from Honda. And where is that S-Class competitor. Or should we stretch the current generation Honda Accord. At the headlights are the same

gavine

Are you telling me that Lexus cars don't say "ATOYOT" on the windows? (Anyone who ever owned a Toyota knows what I mean.)

GoHawks

It says Lexus.

123456SPEED

BMW and MB were mentioned earlier.
I wonder how much leasing vs buying plays a part in over $40k vehicle choice.
What % of Acura RL, MB, and BMW buyers lease?
I surmise that many BMW drivers lease, and BMW has very competitive leases.
What part do the higher RL leases play in keeping many customers away?
Just curious, I've never leased a car myself. As you approach the $50k price range ya dealers gotta play the lease game IMO.

noobie

Many BMW and MBs are leased. BMW averages $3500 per car sold in NA for incentives, but you never really see cash backs or rebates as it cheapens the brand. Their lease are so good because they subsidize the money factor and residual value. MB does the same, you can lease an E550 for 699 a month, a $60K+ car. MB does have big trunk money to clear inventory.

Acura should think about killer lease deals to move the RL instead of just teh marketing incentive.