View Poll Results: Would you abort a pregnancy?
Pro-choice
118
60.51%
Pro-life
33
16.92%
Depends
44
22.56%
Voters: 195. You may not vote on this poll
Abortion?
10-19-2006, 02:47 PM
#361
Suzuka Master
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by soopa
It's a crutch. Without that rationale it would be almost impossible to volunteer the death of your child.
I'm not saying this in a bad way. It's needed to justify abortion, it's a crutch. Without believing that it is not yet a child you would be inclined to preserve the life. You said it yourself.
I'm not saying this in a bad way. It's needed to justify abortion, it's a crutch. Without believing that it is not yet a child you would be inclined to preserve the life. You said it yourself.
10-19-2006, 02:48 PM
#362
The Creator
Originally Posted by AcuraDriver2006
It means that some people do help others for a living. Sometimes you come across a person who's opinion actually is backed by something than just a personal opinion. In any case, I believe this thread is far more civil than most thread I've came across lately.
10-19-2006, 02:49 PM
#363
The Boss
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Originally Posted by leedogg
Wrong. You want to protect the mothers right to choose whether they can kill the kid or not and to hell with the rights of that new life. I want to protect the child's right to choose life until they are able to make the choice for themselves.
You're kidding me right? Ok, I'll find all the mothers who are pregnant. Tell them to have the babies and give them all to you to raise them until they are old enough to make their own decisions. I hope you're rich!!!If you want to voice your opinion, you should step up to the plate and take care of the children. I love pro-lifers who want to "save" the child's life but once they're born... they don't do jack shit.
Last edited by AcuraDriver2006; 10-19-2006 at 02:51 PM.
10-19-2006, 02:49 PM
#364
The Creator
Originally Posted by CUNextTuesday
I'd like to think it's more than just a crutch.
If you need to lean on it to support a function, it's a crutch. No matter how you dress it up, it's a crutch.
10-19-2006, 02:50 PM
#365
Originally Posted by CUNextTuesday
Each situation is different and everyone is entitled to make their own decisions...no one said anything about making decisions for others.
And what the fuck are you talking about a moment of weakness? Are you kidding me? It's not like abortion is a murder in the heat of passion. It's not like "oh noes! I'm pregnant shit I'll go over to the abortion clinic RIGHT NOW and get that baby sucked outta me!" You have to make an appointment...you have ample time to think things over. Granted some people do regret the decision afterwards, but they had plenty of time to think about the consequences...
And what the fuck are you talking about a moment of weakness? Are you kidding me? It's not like abortion is a murder in the heat of passion. It's not like "oh noes! I'm pregnant shit I'll go over to the abortion clinic RIGHT NOW and get that baby sucked outta me!" You have to make an appointment...you have ample time to think things over. Granted some people do regret the decision afterwards, but they had plenty of time to think about the consequences...
Last edited by leedogg; 10-19-2006 at 02:54 PM.
10-19-2006, 02:54 PM
#366
Community Architect
robb m.
robb m.
Originally Posted by leedogg
Wrong. You want to protect the mothers right to choose whether they can kill the kid or not and to hell with the rights of that new life. I want to protect the child's right to choose life until they are able to make the choice for themselves.
10-19-2006, 02:55 PM
#367
Suzuka Master
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by leedogg
They can say any goddamn thing they want. I was pissed at the father, decided to walk into a clinic and off the kid as revenge. Its easier than using birth control.
10-19-2006, 02:58 PM
#369
The Boss
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Originally Posted by Astroboy
yeah, that's all fine and good, except that it is NOT a child until it breathes on it's own. An unborn child/fetus/baby/whatever has no right to choose anything, because it does not exist on its own.
I think I remember reading this statement on page 2, 5, 9, 11, and here.
10-19-2006, 03:01 PM
#370
teh Senior Instigator
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Originally Posted by AcuraDriver2006
For Your Information. TME has a phD in psychology. She works for a very credible firm and volunteers at the local hospitals on her own time. Part of her volunteers involves helping single mothers dealing with pregnancy and people dealing with AIDS.
stalker much?
Atsxguy, have a fun time in
land.
10-19-2006, 03:03 PM
#371
Originally Posted by Astroboy
yeah, that's all fine and good, except that it is NOT a child until it breathes on it's own. An unborn child/fetus/baby/whatever has no right to choose anything, because it does not exist on its own.
10-19-2006, 03:07 PM
#372
Suzuka Master
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by leedogg
If they wanted to sue the state for killing the kid, they can say anything they wanted.
10-19-2006, 03:07 PM
#373
The Creator
Originally Posted by Astroboy
yeah, that's all fine and good, except that it is NOT a child until it breathes on it's own. An unborn child/fetus/baby/whatever has no right to choose anything, because it does not exist on its own.
A fetus is potentially viable in the 2nd trimester after as little as 24 weeks.
While your argument may hold up for 1st trimester pre-fetal stage babies, it falls apart after that.
In the coming years, the age of viability will continue to drop as we continue to develop ever more freakish ways to mature a lifeform outside of its mother.
What then?
10-19-2006, 03:11 PM
#374
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Originally Posted by CLpower
stalker much?
answer is in your pm
Originally Posted by soopa
The problem with this viewpoint is ... it could.
A fetus is potentially viable in the 2nd trimester after as little as 24 weeks.
While your argument may hold up for 1st trimester pre-fetal stage babies, it falls apart after that.
In the coming years, the age of viability will continue to drop as we continue to develop ever more freakish ways to mature a lifeform outside of its mother.
What then?
A fetus is potentially viable in the 2nd trimester after as little as 24 weeks.
While your argument may hold up for 1st trimester pre-fetal stage babies, it falls apart after that.
In the coming years, the age of viability will continue to drop as we continue to develop ever more freakish ways to mature a lifeform outside of its mother.
What then?
Last edited by AcuraDriver2006; 10-19-2006 at 03:14 PM.
10-19-2006, 03:13 PM
#376
Community Architect
robb m.
robb m.
oh, i'm not advocating any kind of relief from pregnancy if it's after the 1st trimester, i think that's more than enough time to make a decision and act on it.
But i still don't feel that a fetus is a baby until it exists outside the womb.
But i still don't feel that a fetus is a baby until it exists outside the womb.
10-19-2006, 03:17 PM
#377
Suzuka Master
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by leedogg
Just an example how abortions can be abused when readily available.
10-19-2006, 03:28 PM
#378
The Creator
Originally Posted by Astroboy
oh, i'm not advocating any kind of relief from pregnancy if it's after the 1st trimester, i think that's more than enough time to make a decision and act on it.
But i still don't feel that a fetus is a baby until it exists outside the womb.
But i still don't feel that a fetus is a baby until it exists outside the womb.
That's like saying you don't have something because you're hiding it behind your back.
I don't think "exists" is the right word. Obviously the fetus exists, its not just not there because you can't see it.
In anycase, I think I understand what you're saying. I'm simply pointing out that there are many instances where a fetus can live, develop, and mature without assistance from its mother or the safety of the womb.
In the future, the stage at which this can happen will likely continue to widen. As it is now, 24-weeks is the minimum length the baby needs to remain in the mother to remain viable.
In the future, technology could lessen this to maybe as little as 12 weeks (unlikely, but possible).
What then?
If this is what makes it OK for you, what then? If it's possible for the child to be viable in the 1st trimester, what then?
10-19-2006, 03:30 PM
#379
Nom Nom Nom Nom
Originally Posted by leedogg
And would you like to make this decision for every new life out there?
And what if they later realized that having this abortion was a mistake? Hmm I wonder if they could sue the state for not protecting the life of the child while they were under stress and duress and succumbed to a moment of weakness?
And what if they later realized that having this abortion was a mistake? Hmm I wonder if they could sue the state for not protecting the life of the child while they were under stress and duress and succumbed to a moment of weakness?
How could someone be so selfish to bring a child into this world, that they have no means to care for and give 100% of what that child needs. So now you have a child, that does not get the attention he/she needs because the mother is alone and working 2 jobs.
What kind of affect do you think that is ultimatly gonna have on the child... Not a positive one, thats for sure.
10-19-2006, 03:33 PM
#380
Suzuka Master
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by soopa
LOL
That's like saying you don't have something because you're hiding it behind your back.
I don't think "exists" is the right word. Obviously the fetus exists, its not just not there because you can't see it.
In anycase, I think I understand what you're saying. I'm simply pointing out that there are many instances where a fetus can live, develop, and mature without assistance from its mother or the safety of the womb.
In the future, the stage at which this can happen will likely continue to widen. As it is now, 24-weeks is the minimum length the baby needs to remain in the mother to remain viable.
In the future, technology could lessen this to maybe as little as 12 weeks (unlikely, but possible).
What then?
If this is what makes it OK for you, what then? If it's possible for the child to be viable in the 1st trimester, what then?
That's like saying you don't have something because you're hiding it behind your back.
I don't think "exists" is the right word. Obviously the fetus exists, its not just not there because you can't see it.
In anycase, I think I understand what you're saying. I'm simply pointing out that there are many instances where a fetus can live, develop, and mature without assistance from its mother or the safety of the womb.
In the future, the stage at which this can happen will likely continue to widen. As it is now, 24-weeks is the minimum length the baby needs to remain in the mother to remain viable.
In the future, technology could lessen this to maybe as little as 12 weeks (unlikely, but possible).
What then?
If this is what makes it OK for you, what then? If it's possible for the child to be viable in the 1st trimester, what then?
10-19-2006, 03:38 PM
#381
Community Architect
robb m.
robb m.
Originally Posted by soopa
If this is what makes it OK for you, what then? If it's possible for the child to be viable in the 1st trimester, what then?
so i don't think that future medical advancement will have any effect on my view.
my previous statement that you quoted would have been made clearer had i included the caveat that the baby must exist on it's own outside the womb.
10-19-2006, 03:40 PM
#382
The Creator
Originally Posted by CUNextTuesday
You argue that abortion is unnatural...an unborn child living outside its mother's womb is much more unnatural.
10-19-2006, 03:41 PM
#383
Originally Posted by SwervinCL
That does not hold up, because if they went and had an abortion, then regretted it later, dont you think that she could just get pregnant again. Its not like once you have an abortion, you can no longer have children.
How could someone be so selfish to bring a child into this world, that they have no means to care for and give 100% of what that child needs. So now you have a child, that does not get the attention he/she needs because the mother is alone and working 2 jobs.
What kind of affect do you think that is ultimatly gonna have on the child... Not a positive one, thats for sure.
How could someone be so selfish to bring a child into this world, that they have no means to care for and give 100% of what that child needs. So now you have a child, that does not get the attention he/she needs because the mother is alone and working 2 jobs.
What kind of affect do you think that is ultimatly gonna have on the child... Not a positive one, thats for sure.
If I can come up with one instance where a mother doesnt forever regret that child they aborted when they were younger and more irresponsible or maybe I could point out that that poor child who doesnt get 100% of what he needs here in the US is still 1000 times better off than millions of ethiopian kids.
10-19-2006, 03:42 PM
#384
Nom Nom Nom Nom
Originally Posted by soopa
Oh I agree completely, no questions there. EXCEPT, premature birth is a completely natural occurence and does happen at early stages in some instances.
10-19-2006, 03:43 PM
#385
Nom Nom Nom Nom
Originally Posted by leedogg
You cant speak for all mothers just like you cant speak for all children in those situations.
If I can come up with one instance where a mother doesnt forever regret that child they aborted when they were younger and more irresponsible or maybe I could point out that that poor child who doesnt get 100% of what he needs here in the US is still 1000 times better off than millions of ethiopian kids.
If I can come up with one instance where a mother doesnt forever regret that child they aborted when they were younger and more irresponsible or maybe I could point out that that poor child who doesnt get 100% of what he needs here in the US is still 1000 times better off than millions of ethiopian kids.
I know for a fact that they always regret it. But then soon after realize that it was better off.
And were not in or even talking about Ethiopian children, so that point is moot.
10-19-2006, 03:46 PM
#386
The Creator
Originally Posted by Astroboy
being kept alive via machines and modern medicine doesn't equate with age of viability for me.
so i don't think that future medical advancement will have any effect on my view.
my previous statement that you quoted would have been made clearer had i included the caveat that the baby must exist on it's own outside the womb.
so i don't think that future medical advancement will have any effect on my view.
my previous statement that you quoted would have been made clearer had i included the caveat that the baby must exist on it's own outside the womb.
It's not being "kept alive" on machines permanently like some vegetable.
It's simply being incubated, kept safe, until it is a healthy infant.
This is a common thing. Slightly un-natural that were able to do it, but if and when the day comes that you have a child you will thank god for the ability for it to become a healthy person even if it is naturally born premature.
There are also instances where the woman will WANT the child but is incapable of carrying it past an early stage. If future medicine is able to relieve the mother of that burden and carry the child to maturity then how can you not change your view to the flip side?
I think it's very narrow to say that "viability" isn't count for premature babies just because modern medicine makes it possible.
Especially when 1 in every 8 of us here are here today because of this capability.
So again, what I'm saying is, when the day comes that the possibility of viability outside of the womb in the 1st or early 2nd trimester is here... what then?
It destroys your statement that it's not killing a life, a human, if it is done before it's viable...
Because today's viable is already much wider a window than yesterdays, and tomorrows will be infinitely more promising for premature babies.
10-19-2006, 03:50 PM
#387
The Creator
Originally Posted by SwervinCL
Yeah, but well after the time that SHOULD be allowed for abortion.
I'm only speaking hypothetically towards the question... how late is too late for abortion?
In the future, it will be even less of a window before life is viable. So if you use the "its not a baby outside the womb" argument... well... you know...
10-19-2006, 03:52 PM
#388
Nom Nom Nom Nom
Originally Posted by soopa
Agreed 100%.
I'm only speaking hypothetically towards the question... how late is too late for abortion?
In the future, it will be even less of a window before life is viable. So if you use the "its not a baby outside the womb" argument... well... you know...
I'm only speaking hypothetically towards the question... how late is too late for abortion?
In the future, it will be even less of a window before life is viable. So if you use the "its not a baby outside the womb" argument... well... you know...
10-19-2006, 03:56 PM
#389
The Creator
Originally Posted by SwervinCL
I think past the first trimester is a stretch.
(Yes I know some women, especially lil girls who shouldnt be getting pregnant in the first place, don't find out their pregnant until rather late. I'm speaking towards the average who find out within the first 4-5 weeks tops).
10-19-2006, 03:57 PM
#390
Community Architect
robb m.
robb m.
adam, regardless of what medical technology makes possible in the future, i will always fully support first trimester abortions. I feel that these procedures when done with proper precaution/forethought provide potential life saving benefits to both mom/dad and unborn child.
10-19-2006, 04:00 PM
#391
Go Giants
You are confusing science with religion here. The though is that a fetus in the 1st trimester doesn't have a soul.
10-19-2006, 04:00 PM
#392
Burning Brakes
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There is Whiskers! Now where is my favorite moderator 
Ric should chime in 
It seems like we have 2 admins here; one's pro-life and one's pro-choice
Ric should chime in It seems like we have 2 admins here; one's pro-life and one's pro-choice
10-19-2006, 04:01 PM
#393
The Creator
Originally Posted by Astroboy
adam, regardless of what medical technology makes possible in the future, i will always fully support first trimester abortions. I feel that these procedures when done with proper precaution/forethought provide potential life saving benefits to both mom/dad and unborn child.
I was simply questioning your reasoning that only Viability == Baby, especially when that reasoning didn't seem to be factoring in early prematurity - something that happens today and can produce more than "viable" children.
10-19-2006, 04:02 PM
#394
Nom Nom Nom Nom
Originally Posted by Astroboy
adam, regardless of what medical technology makes possible in the future, i will always fully support first trimester abortions. I feel that these procedures when done with proper precaution/forethought provide potential life saving benefits to both mom/dad and unborn child.
The saying "shit happens, now man up and deal with" just does not hold any amount of water in this debate.
I know that I was not ready at all when i was 18, neither was the girl I was with (whome is now my wife and we have a beautiful daughter together). Do I regret it, well of coarse. But when I was 18 I was no where near ready for a child. i could not have given him/her the life that him/her would require.
10-19-2006, 04:03 PM
#395
Go Giants
Originally Posted by TheMainEvEnt
There is Whiskers! Now where is my favorite moderator Ric should chime in
It seems like we have 2 admins here; one's pro-life and one's pro-choice
Ric should chime in It seems like we have 2 admins here; one's pro-life and one's pro-choice
10-19-2006, 04:10 PM
#397
Community Architect
robb m.
robb m.
Originally Posted by soopa
As will I. Nonetheless, that's not what I was disputing here.
I was simply questioning your reasoning that only Viability == Baby, especially when that reasoning didn't seem to be factoring in early prematurity - something that happens today and can produce more than "viable" children.
I was simply questioning your reasoning that only Viability == Baby, especially when that reasoning didn't seem to be factoring in early prematurity - something that happens today and can produce more than "viable" children.
i guess this does become a bit foggy with your prediction of greatly improved viability from very premature babies, however I still would support the decision to abort within the first trimester.
10-19-2006, 04:11 PM
#398
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by soopa
The problem with this viewpoint is ... it could.
A fetus is potentially viable in the 2nd trimester after as little as 24 weeks.
While your argument may hold up for 1st trimester pre-fetal stage babies, it falls apart after that.
In the coming years, the age of viability will continue to drop as we continue to develop ever more freakish ways to mature a lifeform outside of its mother.
What then?
A fetus is potentially viable in the 2nd trimester after as little as 24 weeks.
While your argument may hold up for 1st trimester pre-fetal stage babies, it falls apart after that.
In the coming years, the age of viability will continue to drop as we continue to develop ever more freakish ways to mature a lifeform outside of its mother.
What then?
good point
10-19-2006, 04:11 PM
#399
Community Architect
robb m.
robb m.
Originally Posted by TheMainEvEnt
It seems like we have 2 admins here; one's pro-life and one's pro-choice
really? who's the pro-lifer?
10-19-2006, 04:13 PM
#400
Senior Moderator
There is a line to be drawn somewhere, we will just never agree on where it is. I suppose the easiest line to draw is right at birth, so thats how we do it.
I think most would support moving that line to just before the third trimester, but the hardcore pro-choice advocates will reject it in fear of a slippery slope.
I think most would support moving that line to just before the third trimester, but the hardcore pro-choice advocates will reject it in fear of a slippery slope.