soopa

leedogg

Would you have supported your birth mother's choice to abort you? You're probably pretty damn lucky abortion wasnt so prevailant then.

All of you can ask yourself this same damn question.


As for the debate on when/if the fetus is alive or not, none of that matters. It will be alive. It will be sentient. It will be human. With the 'its not alive at that point' rationalization, i could say that a newborn is no different than a dog or monkey in capabilities and thought, and therefor killing one or the other is no different. So when is it exactly? Is it only until after a certain stage in mental development when that infant exceeds animals that it is 'alive'? or perhaps, its only when you see it, that it becomes real?

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

I thinkTheMainEvEnt meant to say that "Even a 3 months old baby canNOT make decisions...."

I'm not sure I agree with that. My 4 month old makes choices of what he will and will not cry, smile or laugh at, and he started doing that a while ago.

ericajackhannahjamie?

My answer is yes. If my mom was unable to support me or herself during pregnancy, I rather her have the abortion than sacraficing her future for me.

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

Brave of you to say that.

astro

how on earth can you make this statement? He NEVER would have been a person, he would not have existed, it's got nothing to do with him, or luck.

astro

amen

i could not agree more!!!!!

BustedJack

whoa whoa, whoa whoa, whoa whoa whoa... hold on there buddy.

An newly born infant is not in the same category as a cat or a dog. You don't go to jail for putting a cat to sleep or decides to kill a dog. But you WILL go to jail for throwing an infant off a bridge or into a dumpster.
I don't think you understand what we're trying to tell you here......
Point is, we're saying, Pro-Choice or Pro-Life, we should leave the decisions ultimately up to those who are pregnant. You're just a bystander and should NOT be telling them what to do. It's not your baby, you're not going to help them raise the kid should they decide to have it.

fdl

So easy to say right now. Do you really value your life that little?

What if your mom could have had you, but she had to make sacrifices like work a bit more, maybe cut down on booze and cigarettes, maybe not go out partying with her friends? Would her partying with her friends be worth more than the person you have become?

What about the option of you still being born and being adopted, would you not choose that over death?

It takes alot for us to overcome our basic instinc of survival, so I have a hard time beleiving you would so easily give up your life when there are so many other options.

leedogg

And I would rather my mom gave me up for adoption. Fortunately we, as sentient beings can choose and make this decision. The basic fundamental breakdown of an abortion is that it places the right to choose of the adult over the future right to choose of that child's. Which comes down to my earlier example illustrating at what point do we determine that that new being has the right to live?

CLpower

agreed 100%

CUNextTuesday

Hey rainman, you could say that, but it's retarded.

And what are you saying about our mothers and abortions? You say it as if everyone here was unplanned...

CUNextTuesday

I agree. leedog and fdl argue "wouldn't you rather be alive," but that's just it, we wouldn't be alive to think that so it wouldn't fucking matter.

fdl

Should society be able to tell her what to do 1 minute after the baby is born? Its really hard to draw a line. I think most of us would look down on an abortion in the 3rd trimester. BUt where can we draw a line? What is the difference between 1 minute after birth and one minute before? 1 hour before? One day before, etc.

There are no easy answers here.

astro

exactamundo.

fdl

Of course it matters. Its about a world with TME vs a World without TME. I think it matters to TME and the people she impacts. Once fertilization occurs, we can say with relative certainty things are in motion to bring her into this world and abortion is changing that.

Does it really matter if we kill a new born? I mean really...if its quick and painless...does it really matter? Its alot easier than killing a 10 year old, with a personality and whose become part of the world.

CUNextTuesday

The fact remains that if she had never been born in the first place, we wouldn't have ever known this world with her. Therefore we could not compare a world with or without TME - she just wouldn't exist.

doopstr

The only abortion I'm fully against is partial birth abortions unless there is something really wrong with the fetus (like its going to die anyway). I figure you got that far, might as well have it and give it up for adoption if you don't want it.

All the information I've seen on partial birth abortion has me convinced that you are killing a living child, not a "thing".

The other types of abortions I'm undecided on, mainly because I haven't decided when life really begins. Perhaps for me it is when brain functions begins it should be considered a child and not a "thing" to dispose.

astro

how can it matter if she never came to be? I don't see how some of you can attach these human feelings of fairness and choice to someting that has yet to exist without being a part of another person...

fdl

Obviously if you didnt exist you couldn't think about it. But you do exist so you can think about it. If given the opportunity to exist or not exist, how could you possibly choose to not exist. Thats crazy.

Would you be ok with your brother or sister not existing, as long as it happened before birth? Would it make a difference, or is it still a loss to society. I'd like to beleive the world is better with me in it.

Andrea25

I'm not saying you actively believe/think like this all the time, I'm sure you realize there are many different situations,
but
that's part of the "stigma" surrounding pregnancy and the options that really doesn't help. For everyone saying that it's so simple to just don't do those things, scrape by on whatever money you have, and go it alone if you have to, but for god sake, don't KILL the baby...
it's not that simple

astro

but we are not the ones who ever think about it. the potential parents think about it, and make their decision. There are some of you saying the child would never choose t end it's own life, but the child never existed, this is a choice that only the parents make, nothing else comes into play.

Sure i'd be ok if my sister never existed, i wouldn't have had her to ever compare against....it's only when you start applying personal experience/hopes/wishes to these unborn babies that things get confusing

CUNextTuesday

We would not be able to even ask the question "would you be ok with your brother or sister not existing" because they would have never existed. It's an unfair question to ask now because they do exist and we know them. But it would make no difference had we never known them and they not existed at all...

soopa

This is silly at this point.

Both sides of this "argument" have extreme views and absolutely no desire to understand the other side. Shit, I think Astro even said that upfront. He will NEVER agree with a point of view other than his own.

So why do we argue?

I think the statements by all parties here very clearly demonstrate why it is sooo important for individuals to have the RIGHT to choose. Everyone will choose different because everyone has different beliefs, morals, feelings, and situations.

Life begins at conception. There is no questioning that, like it or not. Nevertheless, it is your own choice to believe it or to act upon that life in the manner you see fit.

This is why we have the right to choose and should maintain it.

Ignorance and a closed mind will get us nowhere.

fdl

Its the whole ignorance is bliss argument. If you dont know what you are missing, you dont suffer. While this is true, try and think outside of the box a little. Is it not better than you DO know them? If we look forward, is it not better that these people get a shot at life, or is it better that we never know them and are none the wiser.

I can sort of understand the argument that if the parents life will suffer such a great deal, then it is not worth it. But you are simply saying that before a baby is born they can be killed without consideration simply because we ahvent "known" them yet. I just cant buy into that.

leedogg

Are you able to think abstractly here? Lets go back in time, you are the sentient representation of that future zigot, fetus, whatever. Your mom is debating whether to abort your ass because life will become too tough for her, she wont be able to party anymore and guys wont want to be with her anymore or whatever (you think this issue will only impact poor single moms? ha). What do you think? Go for it mom, I support your right to choose, there is no possible way for me to live?

fdl

I dont think anything can be "proven" in this debate. I.E there are no moral truths, or clear right and wrong answers so we just go in circles and nothing changes. A fruitless argument for sure, but its been interesting to see peoples insights and logic.

CUNextTuesday

That seems to be the thing that people question the most.

There is no thinking outside the box had they never existed. Period. If they never exsited we would not be able to even have this arguement.

CUNextTuesday

The thing you and fdl aren't getting that I keep repeating is that the only reason we can think abstractly is because we are here, because we were born. Yes, from our point of view now we are glad we are here. We could not think about that if we never were born though. There is no going back in time had we never been born, so it wouldn't affect our thinking now.

soopa

There is no question whatsoever. Scientifically, life has begun.

Whether its concious, whether its human, whether it can "feel"... whether its on the same level as a vegetable or a bacteria... that you can debate until your hearts content. Ultimately, that's a moral question one can only answer for themselves... as they should have the right to do.

BustedJack

Very valid point, that is why I said

I don't think she's trying to say she values her life too little. I think she means that she is willing to sacrafice her own life if her mom accidentally got pregnant. It's a self sacrafice a daughter is willing to make like a mother who is willing to sacrafice her life for her kids. If she wasn't born, we wouldn't know her today, it wouldn't make a difference in life. We just simply wouldn't know her, she just doesn't exist that's all.

Your point is to live, you want to live. However, if she had an abortion, you wouldn't exist. Nobody would know you, there is no need for a future for you. You know what I mean? You woudn't exist and therefore you would have no friends and nobody cared about you. Yes, there would be things you could have made an impact in this world, but none of that would have mattered if your mother decided to have that abortion.

You can't be judging on things, AFTER THE FACT.
Correct, there is no easy answers here. That is why the ABORTION issue is such an on going, endless debate here and in our society today.

atsxdude

I dont believe that for a second. Unless you are suicidal. thats just self preservation there. Death or a chance(albeit not much of a chance). Logical sense would be to choose a chance.

fdl

Wow, thats just incredibly closed minded thinking. No offence, but have you ever studied ethics theory, maybe some philosophy, perhaps studied moral dilemmas?

Read this page and then get back to me. It may help you understand how we can argue abstractly.

http://www.miracosta.cc.ca.us/home/lmoon/ET.html

BustedJack

Here is what I believe.

#1 I believe the pregnant woman should have the final say to what she wants to do with her baby. Have an abortion, have the baby and put him/her up for adoption, or simple keep the baby.

#2 People who are Pro-Life should stay home, voice their opinion like here online but stay the F* out of the abortion clinic. We don't need folks like you to give more stress to already troubled mothers.

#3 It's a moral issue. If you are Pro Choice and you think you should have the abortion, then do it. If you are Pro Life and think the baby should be saved, then when your pregnant or your significant other is pregnant, have the baby......


Bottom line is, don't tell other what to do. You're not perfect yourself, what made your decision and opinion more important then ones who carrying the child.

soopa

I know...

It's funny how the side saying you CAN'T argue abstractly is arguing abstractly

fdl

Just because I think abortion isnt the right thing to do in most cases, doesnt mean I am not pro-choice. I think in many cases the woman should have the right to choose, even though I believe the chocie of abortion would be a bad one.

fdl

The most amazing thing about this discussion is that it has remained very civil I thought it would turn into a clusterfck of a thread.

SwervinCL

Soopas right. This argument is gonna go in circles till the cows come home.

I just dont think its right for the pro-lifers to run around trying to make peoples decisions for them.

You have the extremists camping infront of abortion clinics taunting signs and what not. How is that right of them to do? Its not their body, its not their emotions. They have a right to be there, but the woman that is going to have an abortion also has rights to have her abortion, in which they are infringing on her rights. Dont you think she is going through enough mental anguish.

To Lee, If my mother would have aborted me, my part of this debate would be moot, and wouldnt matter because I wouldnt be here. But I was also born when Abortions were more looked down upon then they are now.

But if you are one young woman and get pregnant and the father leaves. What are you gonna do? How can you possibly "make it work"?

SwervinCL

For once. This is amazing!!!!!

astro

This is how I read TME's staement. She'd rather her mother choose to save her own life, rather than bring a child into the world without being ready, able, or capable of caring for it. And this is exactly my opinion too. I feel abortion is a better choice than attempting to raise a child alone, or without any stability.