CUNextTuesday

Agreed. It's ignorant to think that people will actually do that...how many people do you know that would still pull out if wearing a condom and their girl was on the pill?

soopa

Again, very few of us here question the morality of EARLY First Trimester abortions when the NEED is present.

You're responding to my posts in which I've very clearly given context to support my perspective on when & what is a child.

Nevertheless, here you are contridicting yourself. You just said:

"ok, the blastocyst that forms is a child, but many people do not consider a cluster of cells to be an actual human child."

OK, so it's a child, but it's not human? Make up your mind.

I've already given my perspective and stood by it, don't jump back into the argument by relinquishing your ground only to follow your admission with a "BUT".

You don't need to use your obvious bias, having made the decision to abort, as justification for abortion.

Abortion is what it is, be an adult about it and accept that fact that it is a child that you are preventing from seeing this world with its own eyes.

It doesn't take an adult to get pregnant and it certainly doesn't take an adult to choose abortion.

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

OK...poor argument that very few parents actually kill their kids.

How about this....women should abort the child if that child will be severly neglected or abused because they were unwanted in the first place. There is a lot more cases of that happening.

soopa

You're completely missing my point. I'm absolutely not saying I follow this practice, I'm absolutely not saying it resolves all problems.

I'm saying that if you take very reasonable precautions (short of what could be considered unreasonable, abstinance) then you can at least say you TRIED to be responsible. You did what you could.

If you take those precautions, it is nearly impossible... 99.9999999999999999999999999999999--% impossible that you could possibly get pregnant.

At least than you can say with good faith you tried to avoid pregnancy.

You can't say that after you've ejaculated in your partner and 3-5 weeks later you find out she's pregnant. You took a risk, you took a gamble, and you lost. Accept the responsibility.

soopa

Exactly. People don't do it. Which is why too many people use abortion as a means of birth control.

PULL OUT IF YOU ABSOLUTELY DO NOT OR CAN NOT HAVE A BABY!

If you maintained this very simple practice you wouldn't have had to make the very un-adult decision to abort your child.

soopa

My fiancee & I found out this past Sunday that we are pregnant. It wasn't planned, she'd been on birth control, but I'm more than happy to accept responsibility for my actions.

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

I did. It was at a time in my life that I really didn't want to be a parent and it's safer to wear a condom even if she's on the pill.

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

So should we cay congrats?

soopa

Also, my mother met ALL the criteria so many of you use to justify abortion. As a result, she has had a difficult life and I a difficult childhood. Nonetheless, I'm very happy she made the choice to accept her responsibility and see her pregnancy through. As is she, despite the hardships.

SwervinCL

I agree. 100%. Thank you for clearing it up.
I never said that I was completly for abortion. I have stood by what I said in saying Adoption>Abortion. My only thing is if you cant care for the child and give it everything that it requires, then let someone else raise it, or dont bring it into the world.

I have been in the situation before and WE chose abortion, because we were both young and dumb. There was NO WAY WE could have given that child what is required. Adoption was out of the picture because my now wife did not want to get attatched to it, just to give it away, and neither did I.

soopa

When I was 17 I was ultra paranoid about being a daddy, so I took nearly every step necessary to prevent it.

I remeber this clearly because one girl I dated looked at me like a fucking freak the first time I pulled out while wearing a condom.

Suffice to say, I'm very happy I never had a child with her and I've never had to choose abortion.

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

<----Meet Elliott.

He was exactly the outcome of what you described. By far, the best thing that ever happened to me. But I feel that at this time in my life both me and my wife are able to care for him the way he deserves to be cared for. 10 years ago, I would have not been able to do it.

SwervinCL

Congradulations!!!!!!!!

This is what I mean, everyones situations are different. You and your FIANCE are pregnant...
Thats different that being 16 and stupid. Or even older and a 1 night stand.

But for real... Congradulations man... Thats awesome!

CUNextTuesday

I've made up my mind...you have the quote out of context. It begins by saying that scientifically a blastocyst is a child, but many people do not consider it an actual human child. No where in that sentence did I state my own opinion. It's a fact that many people do not think life begins at conception. period.

I also don't see any place in my post where I used my decision to abort as justification.

You crossed the line. You have absolutely no business telling me anything about my choices or actions. You don't know shit about my situation or what happened so shut the fuck up when it comes to that. You have no right.

SwervinCL

Thats exactly what I mean!

Same with me. I had my daughter at 23. I was no where ready for a child. Nor wanted one. But I manned up and dealt with it. But I wouldnt not trade her in for anything. SHe is waht I live for. She is my everything.

soopa

I agree, to some extent.

Just because you're not rich, not extremely mature, or not yet comfortable doesn't mean your child will have a BAD life.

Like I said, my mom was poor, I was father-less, and we had very little. My childhood compared to the childhood I will provide my kid - SUCKED. Nonetheles, I've had a happy life with many more good memories than bad.

Kids need love, not money.

But yeah, I agree. I just wish people drew the line a little further back.

I understand your reasoning, and in your situation it's quite possible I would have made the same young and dumb choice.

In hindsight and not being in your shoes however, I will say that the more responsible thing to do would have been to see the pregnancy through and offer the child for adoption while sacrificing your own feels of attachment. That is probably the best gift you could have given that child.

Again though, I'm not saying you're an evil person. We all make mistakes, given the opportunity I'd probably have made the same. The important part is that you recognize and accept responsibility for your mistakes now. You've grown, that's commendable.

moeronn

^^ Soopa, when exactly, other than medical necessity, rape and incest do you feel that abortion is acceptable then? I know you are saying it's not society's place to decide for all women, but under what other circumstances would you feel abortion may be appropriate? While we may not agree with the choices some people make in their lives, in most instances, we should have no say in the matter.

And from my understanding, most medical complications aren't diagnosed in the first trimester. This makes limiting first trimester abortions to medical necessity pointless. And many pro-lifers would not even give exceptions to victims of rape or incest.

As I have gotten older, more mature and gained a better understanding of life, I have definitely rethought my position on the subject as it pertains to me - if I were faced with the situation. That, however, does not apply to every other person out there and I don't feel they must follow my way of thinking.

Side note - one option that I haven't seen mentioned here is dropping of a newborn baby at safe locations. A mother has a few days (it was three, but I think they just increased it) to drop off a baby at a hospital, police station or other "safe" location without penalty or question.

GIBSON6594

He did?

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

Good for you.

Ken1997TL

Keep it legal, keep it safe, keep it RARE. Counseling should be provided before and after. The father should be involved. That is all.

soopa

You are the one that brought your personal experience into this. I never asked you if you had been in this type of situation or what choice you made.

YOU brought it up. YOU made it a keystone of your argument.

Your response here just solidifies my view of you as YOUNG and dumb.

Next time don't post your personal issues on the internet if you don't want people critiquing them. You'll notice I didn't go bringing my current experiences into this until asked, and by answering I've accepted that I'll probably receive some shit from some idiot some way or the other.

Nonetheless, with a temper like that I can see why you're not ready for children.

SwervinCL

Without a doubt it would have been the more responsible thing to do. Coming from someone who is adopted. I would have loved to give someone something that they can not produce on their own. Like what was given to my parents.

fdl

He knows you killed your kid

CUNextTuesday

What else do you expect from the 19 year old hot head?

soopa

Like I said when you brought this up previously, I am completely willing to accept provisions for medical complications in later trimesters.

I don't know that it's worth sacrificing a mothers life only to bring a mother less and possibly unhealthy child into the world. This, however, is not my decision to make for anyone... and I certainly wouldn't fault anyone no matter the decision they made.

Shit, 3 months from now I could be in those shoes. It's the mothers place to make a decision in that matter.

In any case... I'm not saying my opinions here should be law... or what I say is the best way...

Like everyone else, I'm simply arguing my case.

MOSTLY, I entered this conversation simply to bring context to the "it's not a child" debate.

By the time you find out you're pregnant, it's way more then a "cluster of cells"... it's a child.

soopa

Very little.

moeronn

I should have been more clear. I only meant that first paragraph to be directed at you. The others were for general discussion.

Call me ignorant, uninformed or what have you, I still don't necessarily agree with your last statement. It may be more than "just a cluster of cells", but it is still far from being a child.

And congrats on the pregnancy. I hope everything goes well.

CUNextTuesday

I don't think that's all that common, though certainly preferable the baby into a dumpster. What do you think would cause someone to do that? If they're able to part with the child they could always go with adoption...I guess this makes it easier? Kinda just drop him/her off and that's that...

soopa

To each his own. A Fetus sucking it's thumb is a baby in my book.

soopa

Thanks. Me too...

soopa

I imagine the shame aspect. Not wanting any chance of someone knowing were pregnant...

Probably also greed. "If I can't have it nobody can!"

Similar to this who kill their significant others who try to leave them for another man/woman.

moeronn

It's basically to avoid finding a dead or neglected baby tossed aside. It's for women who got pregnant and wanted to see the pregnancy through but realized (or finally admitted) late in the game that they cannot properly care for the child. It keeps them completely anonymous and still gives the baby a fair chance at finding a family to care for it. I don't know how common it is, but my guess is it happens more often than you think.

CUNextTuesday

Has anyone seen the movie Losing Isaiah? I bring that up because we were recently talking about it in one of my classes. It deals with a lot of this stuff: crack baby thrown into the dumpster, adopted by another parent, then original parent cleans up and wants him back...

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

I think it's more common than reported.

SwervinCL

Which in my opinion, she should not be given the chance to try and make things right. What she did is done, cant go back on it now. That baby has his/her parents.

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

I don't know if I've seen it. I've read about a lot of parents that give up children, clean up and want them back. To me, most of them are doing it our of guilt. And it usually ends up in them fucking up the kid more than they already were.

My wife's sister is raising her nephew's kids, and went through the process to legally be their guardians. I, personally feel that she is going to get so attached to them and vice versa and then the kids' parents are going to get their shit together and rip them away from the woman that raised them. How does that benefit the kids?

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

And I know this has to be something you have thought about a lot.

SwervinCL

Number 1 reason I never had any ambition to find my biological mother/father.. I have my parents.

CUNextTuesday

Yes...as far as I'm concerned that baby was dead to her the second she abandoned it and she lost all her rights to him.

SwervinCL

Plus the lady that was claiming to be my mother, said that she didnt want to spend a lot of money in finding me, but yet thought it was a neccessity to get her boobs done...

Have not talked to her since.