General Car Talk Discussion Thread
You'll Never Walk Alone
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Car and Driver explained why the Ford GT was slower this time than before. The first time that they ran it, it was in November and the cooler weather, the car was much faster on the straight. Their data shows the car to be much slower in the second test as it was in May.
I also think it's all relevant too. These are not pro drivers. but are quite competent. I'd imagine they are fairly consistent and are enough to show the performance differences between the cars.
The Mustang GT PP2 is impressive. I guess Ford needed these packages just to keep up with the 1LE pkg from Chevy. It's always great to have wider Sport Cup 2 tires. They will instantly shave off seconds off the lap time easily. I wonder how fast the CTR would be with those tires too as the stock conti's are nowhere near Sport Cup 2 grip level.
I also think it's all relevant too. These are not pro drivers. but are quite competent. I'd imagine they are fairly consistent and are enough to show the performance differences between the cars.
The Mustang GT PP2 is impressive. I guess Ford needed these packages just to keep up with the 1LE pkg from Chevy. It's always great to have wider Sport Cup 2 tires. They will instantly shave off seconds off the lap time easily. I wonder how fast the CTR would be with those tires too as the stock conti's are nowhere near Sport Cup 2 grip level.
Safety Car
Joined: Jun 2010
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Likes: 1,095
From: Kansas City
Car and Driver explained why the Ford GT was slower this time than before. The first time that they ran it, it was in November and the cooler weather, the car was much faster on the straight. Their data shows the car to be much slower in the second test as it was in May.
I am still puzzled and skeptical. I have several questions. What makes C/D so sure that it was the weather/ambient temperature that caused such a significant slow down? Obviously it's easy to guess using layman/amateur logic (heat = bad, cold = good), but without actual data or professional diagnostics, I am quite skeptical of their conclusion. IF this is true, then is it because it's a Ford GT issue? Or does it apply to many other high performance cars where heat soak and, presumably, the ECU gimps the motor in order to save itself? I would be pissed if I spent over 500k and the time to put in that application only to have my car gimped xz% when summer rolls around. Or is it that specific car may have had issues that were not fully aware of?
And my other question...it seems then that C/D do not have a single set month they do this test each year...I assume partially this is due to the difficulty in scheduling track time for several days in a row at a place like VIR, so at times they may need to do it whenever it is open. If this is the case, then should we put an asterisk over the summer test numbers and presume the cars could be faster at colder temps? Again, this raises the question of whether ambien temp only was a big factor in the Ford GT or across all performance cars.
This seems like a very important/interesting discrepancy to look into. Whether it's related to the Ford GT as a model....or that specific car (whether there was any issues with it) or if it can be applied across the board to many performance cars.
I have read on the Corvette Forum that high performance cars, such as the C7 Z06, can pull timing after an especially hard/hot pull and that pulls after the initial one may actually be slower due to ECU nanny kicking in...not sure how true that is or if it applies to the Ford GT in this case.
Someone else with much more technical/automotive knowledge could chime in and give some insights.
You'll Never Walk Alone
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
I just read that after seeing you post this.
I am still puzzled and skeptical. I have several questions. What makes C/D so sure that it was the weather/ambient temperature that caused such a significant slow down? Obviously it's easy to guess using layman/amateur logic (heat = bad, cold = good), but without actual data or professional diagnostics, I am quite skeptical of their conclusion. IF this is true, then is it because it's a Ford GT issue? Or does it apply to many other high performance cars where heat soak and, presumably, the ECU gimps the motor in order to save itself? I would be pissed if I spent over 500k and the time to put in that application only to have my car gimped xz% when summer rolls around. Or is it that specific car may have had issues that were not fully aware of?
And my other question...it seems then that C/D do not have a single set month they do this test each year...I assume partially this is due to the difficulty in scheduling track time for several days in a row at a place like VIR, so at times they may need to do it whenever it is open. If this is the case, then should we put an asterisk over the summer test numbers and presume the cars could be faster at colder temps? Again, this raises the question of whether ambien temp only was a big factor in the Ford GT or across all performance cars.
This seems like a very important/interesting discrepancy to look into. Whether it's related to the Ford GT as a model....or that specific car (whether there was any issues with it) or if it can be applied across the board to many performance cars.
I have read on the Corvette Forum that high performance cars, such as the C7 Z06, can pull timing after an especially hard/hot pull and that pulls after the initial one may actually be slower due to ECU nanny kicking in...not sure how true that is or if it applies to the Ford GT in this case.
Someone else with much more technical/automotive knowledge could chime in and give some insights.
I am still puzzled and skeptical. I have several questions. What makes C/D so sure that it was the weather/ambient temperature that caused such a significant slow down? Obviously it's easy to guess using layman/amateur logic (heat = bad, cold = good), but without actual data or professional diagnostics, I am quite skeptical of their conclusion. IF this is true, then is it because it's a Ford GT issue? Or does it apply to many other high performance cars where heat soak and, presumably, the ECU gimps the motor in order to save itself? I would be pissed if I spent over 500k and the time to put in that application only to have my car gimped xz% when summer rolls around. Or is it that specific car may have had issues that were not fully aware of?
And my other question...it seems then that C/D do not have a single set month they do this test each year...I assume partially this is due to the difficulty in scheduling track time for several days in a row at a place like VIR, so at times they may need to do it whenever it is open. If this is the case, then should we put an asterisk over the summer test numbers and presume the cars could be faster at colder temps? Again, this raises the question of whether ambien temp only was a big factor in the Ford GT or across all performance cars.
This seems like a very important/interesting discrepancy to look into. Whether it's related to the Ford GT as a model....or that specific car (whether there was any issues with it) or if it can be applied across the board to many performance cars.
I have read on the Corvette Forum that high performance cars, such as the C7 Z06, can pull timing after an especially hard/hot pull and that pulls after the initial one may actually be slower due to ECU nanny kicking in...not sure how true that is or if it applies to the Ford GT in this case.
Someone else with much more technical/automotive knowledge could chime in and give some insights.
Ford cars from what I can recall tend to be sensitive to ambient conditions. I've seen something similar with Focus ST and Focus RS in acceleration tests and dyno runs. I could feel heat soaking in my 07 RDX too. My CTR was also losing power during my track day in August as the temperature went from 25C in the morning to 35C in the afternoon sessions. I lost about 5km/h on the long straightaway. Colder air is always better for making more power after all. It's not a Ford GT specific issue. However, some cars are more "sensitive" and cut more power than others. From another forum I read, apparently Ford had a hell of a time developing the engine for the Ford GT. They had very high piston temp and engines were still blowing up late in development. I wouldn't be surprised if Ford put extra safety measures to minimize the chance of failure.
From what I can recall, C/D always publishes their Lightning Lap results in September. I'd imagine the tests are often done in May? I'm not sure though.
Safety Car
Joined: Jun 2010
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From: Kansas City
Ah, that would make sense. Interesting that some cars are more sensitive to others, but it seems like all are affected to some degree (no one is above Newton). So looks like it's not surprising that the GT motor is a bit more protected in the street legal car form, as it is a race car 1st and I would imagine the engineering/design is to win Le Mans first and then adapt and change as needed for street-use. Looks like it's certainly a game of balance as you want lower ambient temp but also warm enough environment to have good rubber/asphalt traction as well. Thanks for the input from your own experience.
Suzuka Master
Joined: Nov 2008
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Looking at all the times, it doesn't seem like a big deal if it went from 2:43 to 2:45.5 in the grand scheme; all that shows is that it would only bump up 1 slot ahead of the Performante. Still a solid outing for the car, personally. If there was anyone on a Ford GT forum truly upset, Ford has already shown in the hands of their own race car driver and the guy who helped developed both road and race versions, the car can run a 2:38 with more in it.
Johnson notes that the GT he drove at VIR wasn't even the ideal spec for setting a record—it wasn't a Competition Series car, which comes with an A/C delete, among other weight-saving features. The record-setting GT also lacked the optional titanium exhaust, which also saves a few pounds.
You'll Never Walk Alone
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
I thought it was a 2:39? But that's the thing, if each car in the Lightning Lap is driven by a pro driver, it's very likely each will gain a bit of time, much like the Ford GT. And if you give the driver more laps, the lap time will also go down, which applies to pretty much all cars.
For me, the C/D test shows where each car stands relative to each other when driven by very competent drivers in a given period with a few laps. It's not really to show the absolute best time each car get.
For me, the C/D test shows where each car stands relative to each other when driven by very competent drivers in a given period with a few laps. It's not really to show the absolute best time each car get.
Ex-OEM King
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 17,876
Likes: 7,023
From: Minnesnowta
Guessing this will get moved. In this part of the forum the only "cool looking parts" that people install are entirely different/new cars lol.
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From: Phoenix, AZ
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From: Spring, TX
https://jalopnik.com/aftermarket-sof...-to-1829348318
Derive Systems, parent company to popular aftermarket tuners Bully Dog and SCT, has been awarded a civil penalty of $300,000 for manufacturing and distributing over 363,000 products that violate the Clean Air Act. In addition to the penalty, Derive Systems will be forced to spend as much as $6.25 million in order to ensure compliance of all future and existing handheld tuners named in the lawsuit.
The lawsuit, lodged by the DOJ and EPA, alleges that the handheld tuner company has been selling products that facilitate the removal of mandatory emissions equipment, including resetting the parameters of an oxygen sensor to allow for removal of a catalyst or diesel particulate filter, for example. The resulting penalty is an out-of-court settlement.
The settlement further entails that Derive must limit access to certain key emission control parameters in their software tuners. All marketing efforts by Derive subsidiaries must be scrubbed of any information on subverting emissions controls. And most crucially, Derive must create a customer verification program to train customers about how their vehicle functions, how emission controls work, and what requirements the Clean Air Act entails.
The $300,000 penalty was based upon the company’s inability to pay a larger amount. Nice.
If you’re looking for dirty emissions performance, or want to roll coal, first I must request that you take a good look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself why you’re so selfish. Second, you should probably call someone other than Bully Dog or SCT to get your sooty tailpipe fix. They’re officially out of the ring.
The lawsuit, lodged by the DOJ and EPA, alleges that the handheld tuner company has been selling products that facilitate the removal of mandatory emissions equipment, including resetting the parameters of an oxygen sensor to allow for removal of a catalyst or diesel particulate filter, for example. The resulting penalty is an out-of-court settlement.
The settlement further entails that Derive must limit access to certain key emission control parameters in their software tuners. All marketing efforts by Derive subsidiaries must be scrubbed of any information on subverting emissions controls. And most crucially, Derive must create a customer verification program to train customers about how their vehicle functions, how emission controls work, and what requirements the Clean Air Act entails.
The $300,000 penalty was based upon the company’s inability to pay a larger amount. Nice.
“For decades, Americans have worked hard to significantly reduce harmful emissions from cars and trucks. Tremendous progress has been made and the air is much cleaner today across the nation. Unfortunately, not everyone is playing by the rules. Today’s settlement will bring Derive Systems and its aftermarket products into compliance with the Clean Air Act, and demonstrates to other manufacturers that products designed to unlawfully thwart vehicle emissions control systems will not be tolerated,” said Acting Assistant Attorney General Jeffrey H. Wood for the Justice Department’s Environment and Natural Resources Division. “The Department of Justice will continue to work with our partners at EPA to hold companies who violate environmental laws accountable, and to protect clean air for all Americans.”
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Taking a brief tour of Germany and Switzerland, as it's always been a bucket list thing of mine to experience Oktoberfest in Germany.
While I'm Munich, rented a previous gen Opel Insignia wagon (Buick Regal rebadge), mainly got it because it was stick. Isolated ride. Vague shifter. Gutless and noisy diesel, uninvolving dynamics, but very fuel efficient. Was cool driving a manual rental around Europe, especially through the countryside.
Before heading to Switzerland, got another rental - A3 TDI. Was happy to get something compact, yet was prepared to be underwhelmed. Actually ended up liking it a lot. Very smooth ride, fast and accurate steering, much better shifter. Also helped that it only had 6k miles vs almost 40k on the Opel.
Most surprising thing was the A3 TDI has a beam axle rear, vs multi link on the gas versions. Didn't really notice tbh. Ride was still great. Helps that the roads here are generally so smooth.
While I'm Munich, rented a previous gen Opel Insignia wagon (Buick Regal rebadge), mainly got it because it was stick. Isolated ride. Vague shifter. Gutless and noisy diesel, uninvolving dynamics, but very fuel efficient. Was cool driving a manual rental around Europe, especially through the countryside.
Before heading to Switzerland, got another rental - A3 TDI. Was happy to get something compact, yet was prepared to be underwhelmed. Actually ended up liking it a lot. Very smooth ride, fast and accurate steering, much better shifter. Also helped that it only had 6k miles vs almost 40k on the Opel.
Most surprising thing was the A3 TDI has a beam axle rear, vs multi link on the gas versions. Didn't really notice tbh. Ride was still great. Helps that the roads here are generally so smooth.
Senior Moderator
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 169,084
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Taking a brief tour of Germany and Switzerland, as it's always been a bucket list thing of mine to experience Oktoberfest in Germany.
While I'm Munich, rented a previous gen Opel Insignia wagon (Buick Regal rebadge), mainly got it because it was stick. Isolated ride. Vague shifter. Gutless and noisy diesel, uninvolving dynamics, but very fuel efficient. Was cool driving a manual rental around Europe, especially through the countryside.
Before heading to Switzerland, got another rental - A3 TDI. Was happy to get something compact, yet was prepared to be underwhelmed. Actually ended up liking it a lot. Very smooth ride, fast and accurate steering, much better shifter. Also helped that it only had 6k miles vs almost 40k on the Opel.
Most surprising thing was the A3 TDI has a beam axle rear, vs multi link on the gas versions. Didn't really notice tbh. Ride was still great. Helps that the roads here are generally so smooth.
While I'm Munich, rented a previous gen Opel Insignia wagon (Buick Regal rebadge), mainly got it because it was stick. Isolated ride. Vague shifter. Gutless and noisy diesel, uninvolving dynamics, but very fuel efficient. Was cool driving a manual rental around Europe, especially through the countryside.
Before heading to Switzerland, got another rental - A3 TDI. Was happy to get something compact, yet was prepared to be underwhelmed. Actually ended up liking it a lot. Very smooth ride, fast and accurate steering, much better shifter. Also helped that it only had 6k miles vs almost 40k on the Opel.
Most surprising thing was the A3 TDI has a beam axle rear, vs multi link on the gas versions. Didn't really notice tbh. Ride was still great. Helps that the roads here are generally so smooth.
Azine Jabroni
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 9,245
Likes: 2,226
From: Austin, TX
Taking a brief tour of Germany and Switzerland, as it's always been a bucket list thing of mine to experience Oktoberfest in Germany.
While I'm Munich, rented a previous gen Opel Insignia wagon (Buick Regal rebadge), mainly got it because it was stick. Isolated ride. Vague shifter. Gutless and noisy diesel, uninvolving dynamics, but very fuel efficient. Was cool driving a manual rental around Europe, especially through the countryside.
Before heading to Switzerland, got another rental - A3 TDI. Was happy to get something compact, yet was prepared to be underwhelmed. Actually ended up liking it a lot. Very smooth ride, fast and accurate steering, much better shifter. Also helped that it only had 6k miles vs almost 40k on the Opel.
Most surprising thing was the A3 TDI has a beam axle rear, vs multi link on the gas versions. Didn't really notice tbh. Ride was still great. Helps that the roads here are generally so smooth.
While I'm Munich, rented a previous gen Opel Insignia wagon (Buick Regal rebadge), mainly got it because it was stick. Isolated ride. Vague shifter. Gutless and noisy diesel, uninvolving dynamics, but very fuel efficient. Was cool driving a manual rental around Europe, especially through the countryside.
Before heading to Switzerland, got another rental - A3 TDI. Was happy to get something compact, yet was prepared to be underwhelmed. Actually ended up liking it a lot. Very smooth ride, fast and accurate steering, much better shifter. Also helped that it only had 6k miles vs almost 40k on the Opel.
Most surprising thing was the A3 TDI has a beam axle rear, vs multi link on the gas versions. Didn't really notice tbh. Ride was still great. Helps that the roads here are generally so smooth.
@rockstar143
Suzuka Master
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,283
Likes: 1,272
I thought it was a 2:39? But that's the thing, if each car in the Lightning Lap is driven by a pro driver, it's very likely each will gain a bit of time, much like the Ford GT. And if you give the driver more laps, the lap time will also go down, which applies to pretty much all cars.
For me, the C/D test shows where each car stands relative to each other when driven by very competent drivers in a given period with a few laps. It's not really to show the absolute best time each car get.
For me, the C/D test shows where each car stands relative to each other when driven by very competent drivers in a given period with a few laps. It's not really to show the absolute best time each car get.
But, I'm just pointing out that you know somewhere out there on the web, there's a Ford bloke upset the GT wasn't faster than the others even thought it "should" be. There is always the infamous 'Ring for lap times that have hundreds of man hours behind them in development.
Safety Car
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,920
Likes: 1,095
From: Kansas City
If you can afford the maintenance...getting a used example in a few years could be basically the fastest stock car you can get that'll pretty much walk anything you'll encounter on a typical day/weekend.
Safety Car
Joined: Jun 2010
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From: Kansas City
Ex-OEM King
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 17,876
Likes: 7,023
From: Minnesnowta
Dude for sure. I've been VERY impressed the 720S. I've watched that one drag times youtube channel and the guy has a 720S, basically it fucking walks almost everything on the street, gets basically low 10s consistently on the 1/4 mile (i think he's hit high 9s stock? not sure...) and the only thing that can beat it are either heavily modded cars or if you run into one of the newer hypercars (assuming Chiron/Regera, etc.), which both are very unlikely. (Or maybe a very fast liter bike with a very competent rider....)
If you can afford the maintenance...getting a used example in a few years could be basically the fastest stock car you can get that'll pretty much walk anything you'll encounter on a typical day/weekend.
If you can afford the maintenance...getting a used example in a few years could be basically the fastest stock car you can get that'll pretty much walk anything you'll encounter on a typical day/weekend.
Also, you'll never see one in a rap video lol.
I'm in the same boat. Now that they are AWD (and will depreciate rapidly like any other M car) I can use one year round. It seems that BMW has largely figured it's shit out so the reliability isn't as horrendous as it used to be.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 23,362
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From: Los Angeles
Little stuff here and there. No major issues like the water pump stuff from E9X or subframe, SMG, Vano from E46. or the entire car from E60.
Ex-OEM King
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 17,876
Likes: 7,023
From: Minnesnowta
Ex-OEM King
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 17,876
Likes: 7,023
From: Minnesnowta
Are the rod bearing issues of old finally behind us? Any big issues with the F10 M5? That car seems to be pretty well forgotten in both memory and resale value.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 23,362
Likes: 4,273
From: Los Angeles
Azine Jabroni
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 9,245
Likes: 2,226
From: Austin, TX
