Moog-Type-S

Yea, because really, the current condition of the Untited States is really no big deal. Since the great depression, we have had plenty of times and conditions exactly like those of today. This is nothing new.

When you realize just how much the politicians have no clue and don't care about what is going on...then you will begin to understand the dire straits we are in.

See you in 10 years when/if we have a job recovery.


...but hey let's fiddle while the republic burns.....let's spend more time on the Toyota witch hunt.

CocheseUGA

Yeah. Because they don't have committees to deal with this exact scenario. Chaired by...OMG - members of Congress!

Holy shit!

You know, these people can multitask. They aren't complete idiots.

Moog-Type-S

I beg to differ....did you hear some of the committee member's questions?!?!


It's a witch hunt...a waste of time....the same way it was when Ford's CEO Jacques Nasser was called in for the Explorers.

Political grandstanding FTL.

What's the point of having the NHTSA, when it all ends up before the politicians...so that they can score political points.

meh...no thanks.

CocheseUGA

No, I didn't. I'm at work all day without TV or internet video.

If the questions are stupid, replace the people asking them. But we shouldn't stop questions from being asked. I think it's important that people beholden to the public attempt to get to the bottom of a problem that potentially effects me more than anything else going on right now. I can't fire NHTSA officials. I can fire politicians.

Moog-Type-S

We should probably fire a bunch based on the questions.

They are politicians...not engineers/scientists.

The point is that the NHTSA needs to to their job more effectively, so that it does not end up in a committee every time.

Colin

I wonder if all automakers will go back to mechanical throttle assemblies? Divorce the throttle from the ECU? (that and quietly move the brake further away from the throttle pedal).

biker

I posited some of that earlier - but as a possible ridiculous recommendation from an uninformed congressman as a knee jerk reaction. Many of the gains in fuel mileage and emission control have come about due to DBW. There's no going back. There's a simple fix that other cars makers already have and Toyota itself will have on many of its cars - brake over-ride systems.

Moog-Type-S

You are kidding...right?

That will never happen.

Colin

LOL, one knee jerk reaction deserves another.... I agree it would be very unlikely, but it would beat getting sued out of existence.

West6MT

x 2

Moog-Type-S

Pretty much every car company and every model of car is throttle by wire.

Only Toyota has had throttle issues. No one is certain if their throttle issue is directly related to their software.

Meanwhile all the other millions of cars on the road all around the globe are running perfectly fine with throttle by wire.

Nobody is going to start to sue other vehcile makers over throttle by wire.

Toyota is not going to risk getting into CAFE standard troubles by ditching throttle by wire.

Colin

OK First of all I think you guys are taking my statement a little too literally. It was a bit of a joke after all.

However, I do disagree with your contention that "nobody is going to sue other vehicle makers" I think it's a very real possibility that somebody will seize this as an opportunity to get out of (insert brand) some car If they were having trouble making payments or something. In the current climate what would be easier then driving your car into a wall and then saying "it just wouldn't stop"? It is a obvious that no proof is really needed since none (that I've read about) of the affected cars can replicate the problem after the fact.

I'm not even trying to say that there might not be some real problems here. All I'm saying is that the coverage is extremely one sided and nobody is calling "foul".

Costco

To go a little bit further with the whole moving the brake pedal further from the throttle thing, I think its ridiculous. I wouldn't mind it at all if they did such a thing on a car that was ONLY available as an automatic/did not have the option of a clutch-operated manual. But to do such a thing, especially on a sporty car available with a manual is ridiculous. I don't like to generalize but I think its safe to assume "unintended acceleration" is less likely to happen in a manual transmission car. Its very easy to clutch in and go into neutral, and I don't believe there's a lockin mechanism that will keep a car in a certain gear.

And anyways, anyone who accidentally accelerates instead of braking probably shouldn't be behind the wheel in the first place. Attorneys shouldn't be as involved in car design as they are. I haven't been behind the wheel of any of them yet but I do know that Bob Lutz was arguing for moving the brake pedal closer to the gas in order to make heel-toeing easier in the new Camaro and Solstice/Sky twins and the lawyers were against it

I know it was a joke, but it is happening.

Colin

I agree 100% a car that offers a manual transmission should be set up in such a way that you can heel and toe. If such a car were offered with both an automatic and a manual transmission, care needs to be taken to ensure that they "idiot proof" the automatic but maintain the driving experience in the manual.

majin ssj eric

If computer-controlled throttles are so dangerous, how exactly does EVERY single modern airplane not crash in a blazing fireball? All modern jet aircraft utilize fly-by-wire systems that have no mechanical components controlling flight surfaces. Hell, many of the fighter jets couldn't even fly with conventional controls because they are so unstable in flight they need computers making millions of adjustments per second just to stay in the air.

Computer control is not a bad thing. We will just have to wait and see what this particular problem turns out to be before we start questioning an entire technology...

majin ssj eric

Speaking of confusing the pedals, if you can't tell the difference just by feel between the accelerator pedal and the brake, you need to not be allowed to drive. Period.

csmeance

Computer systems are and have been proven to be reliable. However, it is the system that toyota used (one that differs somewhat from other drive by wire systems) that is failing.

The only argument to this is that F-22's cost a fortune and the testing lockheed martin does is pretty thorough, toyota on the other hand doesn't have these resources for every single car....

Colin

I agree on the drive by wire. Within the aerospace industry drive (fly) by wire is nothing new. Wasn't the F-16 the first plane to use that technology? And the F-16 entered service in 1978. And you are correct, the F-117 is unflyable without the computer.

As for pedel feel, I think that in a panic situation there are many drivers who could not tell the difference between the feel of the brake pedal smashed against the firewall or the feel of the gas pedal smashed against the firewall.

Add to this the fact that Toyota has spent the last 20 years reinforcing their reputation for quiet, soft riding cars they haven't exactly courted the type of driver who is interested in cutting an apex while trail braking.

I would guess that there are few (if any) instances of unintended acceleration with manual transmission drivers. And it's not just because there are more ways to stop the car, IMO, part of the reason is that you have a more engaged driver to begin with.

Costco

^good point Colin, I was thinking the same thing about manual transmission drivers.

There is speculation (at least on some auto-discussion boards and blogs) that brake-by-wire may exist in the future. I'm not so sure I'd be comfortable with that, and I really don't see much advantage besides being necessary if all cars in the future had distance control and automatic braking. Even then, I don't know for sure but I would guess that cars with distance control like new MBs have a separate electronic assist in addition to the hydraulic master cylinder/brake pedal-operated system.

I'm fine with DBW though. While I did notice a very slight difference in response on a DBW vs. non-DBW car (E46 323i vs. E46 325i) it could even be attributed to the engine choice, or maybe it was in my head. On an AP2 S2000 I couldn't tell at all. Either way I'm fine with it.... the advantages of DBW are numerous.

AlterZgo

Brake by wire has already existed in cars for many years. In fact, I believe the E55 AMG models came out w/ brake by wire back in 2004. It had such an unnatural feel that I think mercedes went back to conventional brakes for the E63. However, I'm pretty sure many modern cars like the Lexus LS460, current gen Mercedes like their latest E-class, etc. all have brake by wire systems.

biker

Less likely? How about just about zero chance. Anyone who has driven an MT car regularly, will naturally just push the clutch in. Also folks who drive an MT car are much more used to using the E break than the AT car driver who rarely uses it. I bet there's not a single MT car in this fiasco where the driver was not able to safely control the car, even if the unintended acceleration issue came up.

biker

But like electric power steering I have a feeling those systems have some sort of mechanical fail-safe backup mode.

Legend2TL

Today's electric power assists are interesting but back in the late 80's TRW Automotive division designed and developed a pure drive by wire steering system for consumer cars. There was no mechanical connection/coupling between the steering wheels and the steering gearbox. The benefits of the system were plenty, easier packaging/design/manufacturing and safety. Steering wheels back then (and today?) cause more injury and death than any other object in the car. Even with collapsible columns, steering wheels cause alot of chest trauma.

In the end none of the big 3 were interested. Besides the electrical failure safety issue, the biggest complaint from GM test drivers was lack of steering despite TRW engineer's efforts to provide feedback with a integrated servo motor into the steering wheel.

Legend2TL

First operational airplane to use a fly-by-wire system was the North American A-5 Vigilante back in the late 50's, early sixties. It used used analog computers but had no mechancial couling to the flight controls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RA-5C

I agree with most others on the forums that DBW systems have proven their worth many times over and have operated flawlessly. Like the Toyota there have been some problems (early Airbus A320's) in aviation that have been worked out over time.

A friend fly's 767's for Delta, he likes like fly-by-wire but even with the hydraulically boosted controls he likes some feedback from the autopilot and flight control surfaces especially when landing and turbulance.

Legend2TL

Should say "A friend fly's 767's for Delta, he likes like fly-by-wire but even with the 767's hydraulically boosted controls he likes it's mechanical feedback from the autopilot and flight control surfaces especially when landing and turbulance."

Eoanou

It's unfortunate that there are less than a handful of Toyota/Lexus models that use a manual transmission (Lexus IS250, Scion Tc and Toyota Celica are the only ones I can think of).

biker

I think all of the sedans up to the Camry have MT available (Corolla, Yaris, Matrix).

doopstr

WTF is the matter with Toyota?

Toyota to replace oil hose in 933,800 cars
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN...pe=marketsNews

* Fix part of 'Limited service campaign', not recall

* Oil hose may develop a hole, potentially causing leak

VTEC Racer

Something tells me they have known about the problem for a while. Only reason why they are probably doing a recall now is because they saw how much shit the gas pedal fiasco has gotten them into and now they are just trying to protect themselves from any more future drama. True or not, I just don't trust Toyota.

Moog-Type-S

I don't think you understand what a recall is for.

Mandatory recall is for safety issues....this cleary is not.

Voluntary recall is exactly that, the carmaker voluntarily recalls the cars for the fix....not safety related.

Owners have 3 years to take the car in for pretty much any service, and while in for service this will get fixed.

If car owners are not taking their car in for service over a 3 year period of time, they are going to have more issues than this.

This policy is on par with every other car maker.

Much ado about nothing.

VTEC Racer

How is this not safety related when even Toyota calls this a safety campaign?

When people talk about this, they are gonna call it a recall. You're not going to hear anyone say "oh did you hear about that new safety campaign from Toyota?" No.... In 99% of the cases I bet the average folk will call it a recall. Whether it is a recall or not, most people won't know the difference and automatically consider it as one.

P.S. Doopstr never even said it was a recall. There is no need to attack him like that.

Moog-Type-S

This is a thread about the Toyota recall for the accel. issue.

Hence why I stated there is no reason for it to be a recall for the hose....hence no reason why it should be in this thread

If toyota announces a TSB for Sienna sliding door lubrication...should it be in this thread too?...seriously

The oil hose is not a safety issue.

...and the article has been updated...it no longer says "part of the safety campaign"

^^^ This is normal, and every other car maker would and should approach it in the same way.

Again...much ado about nothing.....why this is in this thread makes no sense to me.

doopstr

I think it being a safety issue is debatable. Depending on where the oil leak is couldn't it cause a fire if it's dripping on a hot engine? Not issuing a recall for this is going to give Congress more ammunition for their witch hunt.

elessar

I'm confused... I think this recall is old news because if memory serves, that's exactly what I was taking my wife's RX in for when I posted this, a month and a half ago:

doopstr

^It's new in that it just became widely known because it now includes nearly 1,000,000 vehicles. Anything like this will set off a media storm because Toyota is under the gun.
This looks more like a safety issue to me now...http://sites.google.com/site/toyotav6oillinescandal/

Moog-Type-S

If this gives congress "more ammunition"....then they are even more ignorant of the facts than I even game them credit for.....which is ZERO credit.

I'm guessing Toyota knows whether or not it will cause or has caused an engine fire.

Motor oil flashpoint is pretty high....about 500F.....and where this leak is located, there should be pretty much no chance of an "fire".....oil has to leak onto some of the hottest parts of the exhaust system for the potential for fire.

phee

iTrader: (5)

people say crazy shit when there's a recession

phee

iTrader: (5)

it may happen one day. who knows. nissan already has downshift safety precautions in place

biker

You knew this wasn't far off.......

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/03/bu.../03toyota.html

The Obama administration is considering requiring all automobiles to contain a brake override system intended to prevent sudden acceleration episodes like those that have led to the recall of millions of Toyotas, the Transportation secretary, Ray LaHood, said Tuesday

biker

^ I wonder if that'll apply to vehicles that don't have DBW.