ccheung

Audi did have the edge with their AWD system. Unfortunately, their reliability issue kills them. Audi dominates a few upper state in the east coast. Maine, Connecticut, New Work and Pennsylvania area have tons of Audi and even Subaru AWD vehicle.

biker

The problem is that regardless of how good the car is - with the golf club set the Acura name still does not have the pull that other badges do. The new Infiniti M will have the same problem - great car - so so image. At that price even the new A6 with the V8 will be close and both the GS and M35 AWD version will cost less.

biker

The question is how much weight will the average non enthusiast place on that technology? I mean Acura has been beating this SH-AWD business in everyones heads for months now but Joe Bloe RL shopper won't know that some POS with snow tires will handle snow better that this super technology with the stock tires. How many RL buyers are going to get snow tires for their car over the winter? Probably no one.
Average Joe in the way out suburbs won't be able to use the much touted traffic avoidance built into the NAV.
A lot of this stuff in the RL and other new cars sound great on paper but in real life other things matter.

1SICKLEX

What R U talking about? Most CL owners enjoy their cars, I know.. The car was a failure. Period. Discontinued=FAILURE. It failed in what, 4 years. It's not a bad car. But it failed.
Don't tell ME do the research, tell Acura to do it better.

When people buy cars this expensive, no matter how trivial it sounds, badges come into play. Acura=value. Not prestige. A 50k Acura is gonna be a hard sell.
It would have been an easier sell if the styling was more aggressive. Like a bigger TL. Even the reviewer said "no one even 2nd glanced at us driving the new RL".

1SICKLEX

Yes the A6 4.2 will be close in price. Good point. And those cars LOOK expensive while the RL does not have the looks or presence of a 50k car.I agree again. Many people DON'T WANT a loaded car. Its a great move by Acura but some people simply don't want AWD, don't want NAV, don't want many of this tech. So making people pay 50k for something they don't want may backfire.

I have noticed in conversations with people in more expensive luxury cars, it's about personalization and choices. Not one size fits all.

Junkster

I have to agree with sick here... the CL was a good car, there's no doubt about that. But against similar competition in it's segment of luxury coupes, it was hard to break a niche for it. Plus, I dont think Honda had a clear plan laid out for the CL.

European reviews are starting to come in on the RL, as the Legend in their market. It's all agreed that driving dynamics and interior quality has vastly improved to the previous model. But they do point out that it is under-powered in regards to it's place in the market, especially in Europe.

Personally, I would like to see this thing. Is it really worth the 50k they are asking for? If there is enough tech and quality, maybe. But I would figure it would be hard to push a 50k RL with V6 to those that are in the market for a LS, 5/7 series or E/C class.

Does anyone else feel like this might end up in the market in much the same state as the Q45?

Junkster, who thinks 45k would have been a great price

biker

Should I be worried when sick agrees with me so much?

Junkster

Sick's pretty well informed... even if he is biased at times... but then again, who isn't in car forums?

Junkster, who thinks biker should be worried... deeply worried

biker

Actually, the Q analogy is very good. When it was redesigned a couple fo years ago it was a totally different and better car. It won reviews but the Infiniti name just could not pull in the folks willing to plunk down the 50-60 large for the car.

Like I said, when the dust settles next summer, at the street price of 45K the RL will sell. At 50K it will sell at the current 500/month.

Junkster

It's gonna be hard, that's for sure, to being in new customers to the RL at it's 50k price...

You think Honda will rebate up to 5k on the RL? Lately, Honda's been pretty aggressive in market support for their vehicles to dealerships, but 5k seems like a huge chunk of the profits for a company the size of Honda.

Junkster, who wonders if the euro prices have been released for the Legend

1SICKLEX

45k would have been perfect. I will drive it, no doubt.
Now to look at how LEXUS does things. The 1st gen GS 300 was a 44k car. In 1998 when the 2nd gen GS came out the GS 300 was 38. THE GS 400 WAS 44k STARTING!!!
Now that is a deal.
The new C-6 Corvette is basically 1500k less than the same equipped C5 model. And the new model is, well new. HIDs, bigger wheels etc.

The price jump is huge.
TSX 27-29k
TL 35-38k
RL 50k

Look at that last gap!

1SICKLEX

Q analogy was perfect.

I actually respect u 2 very much with your opinions and great supporting statements.
I am scared. I agree with u about the diesels too. Me and Junkster always are pretty even headed.

Junkster

Dang, now I'm in a long conversation with the Sick again...

The GS300 was definitely a bargain. competitively, the 400 was also priced pretty well, but personally, I would have shelled out the extra dough to be a 5 series at that point.

But yes, that last point you make about the price gap is very alarming. There needs to be some sort of relativity in the model line. Are we saying that the RL is worth 12k more then the TL? That would be hard to justify with just more lux and AWD, even if it is innovative. The TSX and TL are bargains at their segments, and it's been proven by the public response to the models (Edmunds, if you need a source). The RL would have been better to start at 45k. Without a V8 and a huge increase in size (I mean relative to the TL and comparative to other high-end lux sedans), a 12k jump is pretty steep.

Now, does this meant that Acura has another model to bridge the gap between the RL and TL? That would be pretty tough, considering the fact that the differences between the RL and TL would be too narrow to fit in another model.

We'll see, but I guess cutting the price by 5k would be the path of least resistance to push for the sales of the RL.

Junkster, who would get an RL at 45~47k

1SICKLEX

As u stated, the TSX and TL are selling hot right now.Go to any thread and one of the top 2 reasons for purchase is "value" compared to other cars. $$$$$ in essence, a lower price.
The RL is even if not more than the competition. I see TL owners upgrading to a BMW, Lexus or Infiniti before this new RL.

phile

Regardless of the price gap, Acura is simply playing in the midsize lux realm, which starts at 40K and up. Acura is not out to set sales records with this thing; the current gen. RL sold in pretty suprising numbers (considering its rather lame duck status in the lineup), there's no doubt in my mind they'll be able to sell more with the new RL.

ccheung

Anyone here really drove the car yet? Please do me a favor! Wait till Oct. 14th, go to your local dealer and try it out. It's well worth it. I will not pay $46,100 for 2004, but for 2005 model, yes! BTW, it is not the same any more. Don't expect to see that $3500 dealer cash! Acura has a totally different brand image and marketing strategy. I drove both 530i, E320 and Audi A6 2.7T quattro on the same day. Interior design, technologies, ride quality and overall reliability is the best among all these cars. I guess people here just like to pay for options and ignore the fact that it's much better to have nicely equippe vehicle with only one MSRP.

ClutchPerformer

That's a good point. Has anyone priced the competitive cars with same options? How does the RL stack up then?

I do agree that 49k is too much for this car.

biker

An Acura salesman can brag about the RL technology until he's blue in the face but if some person can get a GS300 AWD for $45K his chances to suceed to sell that 50K RL will be pretty low. And this is all before the bland looks come into play.

I predict that the only real loser (in terms on no net increase in sales) in the wave of new mid sized luxury sedans next year will be BMW with the 5 series. Of course they are selling like 3000/month.

Does Acura have a ball park figure for RL sales? Did they low ball it like the TSX? Even with the rather high price 1000/month is resonable (that's already built in given the early allocation of 8-10/dealer/month). but what happens a year from now?

Junkster

Actually, the RL has been selling pretty horribly for the past three years. They have already announced discontiuation of the Legend in Europe until the new Legend launches. My buddy at Subaru (financing officer) told me that when he talked to his counterparts at Mile High Acura, he was told that the marketing support to dealerships with the current RL is pretty high for Honda standards, and yet they can't get rid of the inventory fast enough. To call it a lame duck would be giving it too much credit.

The new RL will probably post similar numbers to the current RL in terms of first year sales onward. I can't imagine people opting for this when even Infiniti has a M45 ready in launch. It would also be hard to say that this thing is gonna be comparable to the next GS400, or the 530 and E350.

But maybe Honda has something up their sleeves... support for the dealership, among other methods could be possible. We'll see how it launches, but it's definitely got a uphill battle in the market.

Junkster, who thinks Acura needs a TL hybrid

biker

You still don't get it - much of that stuff won't matter in this class. You can't get a new image overnight. And all of those cars will get updates by next year - especially the A6. Again - I would look to the GS and M AWD as the direct competition.

Junkster

hehe... sorry, but that's why we also listen to experts and car guides who get to drive all the models and compare.

I remember alot of people said the same thing about the TL in terms of advancements and all that. And when the critics talked about torque steer and other shortcomings, people started to yell "wait till you drive it yourself"... well, the experts were right on the TL... great car, great value, but the FWD format is the shortcoming when compared to others in it's class.

The RL seems to face similar criticisms... that it's a great car with loads of stuff. But unlike the TL, which gave up some driving dynamics for value, the RL gave up V8 power and certain amount of size without offering much value.

BTW, the A6 finished first in most comparisons on the european market as well as in asia in terms of being a great mid lux sedan... let's see how the RL stacks up when the comparo's come out.

Junkster, who thinks the 5 series will suffer the most in terms of dip in sales

phile

No, it hasn't. This V6 FWD 4-auto sedan consistently outsold the V8 RWD powered M45 from Infiniti, which had a lower starting MSRP, as well as the A6, S60, 9-5. So if you looked at the major players in this category, MB was #1 with the E-Class, BMW #2 with the 5-Series and Lexus #3 with the GS...RL was #4, despite its age and the technology that it lacked.

If that doesn't say something about the Acura name, I don't know what would. And mind you, Acura was not heavily discounting it as they wanted it to retain its resale value.

ClutchPerformer

I don't think so. The 3 sales weren't affected by the huge proliferation of small sporty sedans (IS, C230, TSX, Legacy GT, S40, 9-3 etc.). Why would the 5 (their best seller in its last generation) suffer any more?

biker

A6 1,273 1,491 -14.6% 10,408 11,988 -13.2% August 04/03

The Sept 04 sales for the RL 144 (granted way lower due to the new RL intro).

Junkster

hmmm... I got my info from Automotive News, where were these numbers from? I figure you're pretty good about your sources phile, so maybe those numbers were correct.

Automotive news had the RL sitting only above the S60, M45 and 9-5. The euros and Lexus sat above.

Junkster, who heard the actual incentives involved for the RL was close to 5k

Junkster

Good point, but I think the markets are a bit different in terms of mid size and entry sedans... but your right, the 5 might not suffer so much.

I just figured, with Audi, Jag, Lexus, Infiniti, MB and now Acura have all included offerings that are finally comparable to the 5 series, it would be a tight market. This might be further complicated by the controversial look of the new 5 series.

Junkster, who loves the S-type, which is totally panned in Europe

biker

The sales rankings in this category are roughly: E class (3000/mo), 5 series (3000/mo), A6 (1500/mo), GS (1000/mo), RL (500/mo) all the rest (M45, Jag, Saab, Volvo) below that. The new STS will probably be in there between #2 and #3. BTW the STS will be in the same ballpark pricewise with AWD.

Junkster

oooh, almost forgot about the STS... that should also put a squeeze on the market as well. And with GM offering incentives all throughout their badges, this one will probably get the treatment to get the sales off and running from the start.

bikey, is the price really comparable with AWD? I'm too lazy to find out.

Junkster, who has been adding -ey at the end of everyone's callsign

1SICKLEX

The thing is no one truly gives a shit. The RL hasn't been in a comparison in 8 years. EIGHT YEARS! The car has a following of librarians and people one step away from kicking the bucket.
I have a friend with a RL. And in general discussions about cars, no one knows what it looks like, no one even test drove one. Why he buy it? Great price.
Yes, the new A6 has done VERY WELL so far in comparions. It's just too long for me, like 194 inches long. The new A6 is another car to watch out in this competative market.
Acura, like Infiniti, does not have the executives that understand the luxury car market.

The 5 sales are down like 50% this year. BMW is hurting. That is their bread and butter worldwide.
Acuras brand image is the same and marketing strategy has NOT CHANGED since 1999. One price, Nav or no-Nav models.
Surprising numbers? It's 8k off list. And still sells slow. Though for a 9 year old car, 800 cars a month is not bad.

phile

I monitor the sales number from autosite.com; unfortunately, they don't archive previous months, but the RL was a steady seller, considering what it lacked. So I've always been surprised to see it beating other cars in terms of sales, that's how I know the RL was selling surpringly well, relatively speaking.

biker

I think the Sept. 144 sales number for the RL has got to be the worst month in its existance.

phile

8K off list, where'd you pull that one out of? Acura has specifically said they wouldn't discount it heavily as to keep its resale value high, regardless of how slow it was selling. And the fact that it was selling even that much per month was surprising....where are you confused, troll?

jwaters943

While I agree with the argument that the RL is a little too pricey, it is still (no matter what Sicklex says) less than comparable models from Audi, BMW, MB, and most likely the new GS and M. The key here is standard features. When optioned out to a similar level the RL seems like a much better value.

Either way, many of you feel the RL is $3-4k more expensive than it should be. I'm not convinced that $3k would matter to the average buyer shopping in the $45-50k price range. They'll buy the car that they like best in most cases. Only time will tell if Acura has the panache to attract buyers in this segment. I think it will do fine in terms of sales personally.

phile

It is. The lowest it usually dips is 400/month. In a good month, it can reach double that amount, but it usually fluctuates at around 600/month.

1SICKLEX

In tests, I guess they had the loaded STS. 62k. I nearly crapped my pants. Like the SRX, overpriced.

And speaking of this market, I've seen ads for a new value leader Lincoln LS V-6. 27k new!!! That is ridiculous and a re-sale value killer. Thing is, it really is not a bad car. Just how thick this market is.

I am looking for BMW sales...

Junkster

The new A6 is smaller then the current A6? I haven't looked at reviews of the new A6 yet.

I think Acura has a few decent suits that know what they're doing... the evidences being the TSX and TL. I think some brass suit forgot the principle that holds true with all Honda products: Value and dependibility.

The 5 series, the bread winner?! More like the 3 series, I'd say. But the 5 is probably second, maybe third behind the X5.

I thinks it's a pretty good strategy in the one price method. God knows how faulty some 3 series advertisements can be.

hehe... people buying 9 year old chassis and designs... who are these people anyhow?

Junkster, whose hasn't done any work at all today

biker

The loaded V6 STS MSRP is 49K but we all know the street price will be lower. Add in the AWD and you're probably around 50K.

1SICKLEX

Check any major metropoliton newspaper. Or call a couple dealers around. Why is it so hard to face facts? Acura lied. Just like they said the RL was going to be significantly under 50k. $49, 500 is not significantly under 50k.

Junkster

8k is a bit of exaggeration, it's more like 7k...

The publicly listed incentives are almost always not totally true.

I think publicly they list 5k or so as incentive, including dealer incentive, which they recieve for selling the car. Some inside sources say that they recieve about a 1.5k more or so then pubiclly listed.

GM and Ford do this all the time... why would there be so many dealerships that stay in business when their lots are so full? These incentives keep these dealerships alive.

Sick, where'd you get the 8k number? I got mine from a friend that works at the Honda dealers out in LA.

Junkster, who heard almost 10k incentive for the deville

biker

The A6 will be the biggest car in the mid-sized category at 194in long (most of the cars in the category are between 187-193" long)