civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Looks are subjective, no?

Only when a vast majority considers something ugly do we consider it ugly.

Infiniti isnt my first choice in cars, but its nowhere near as boring as Lexus or as deformed as Acura.

Shift_Acura

My comment was related to the Canadian sales. Since Acura outsold Lexus and Infiniti this month does that mean we prefer ugly, deformed cars

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Probably.

F23A4

They're selling well because they still make quality vehicles and have been running great leasing/finance deals.

While we love our 09 MDX, it was NOT our first choice as we wanted an 09 Murano SL AWD (leather, non-Navi). It was only the fact that Acura was able to match Nissan's price with a base MDX (coupled with 7-seater prospects) that swayed us to Acura.

As far as Acura sedans go, we're still considering whether or not to go the TSX V6 route as a second car. It's not as sweet looking as an IS or G but, it looks respectable. (As much as I'd like to consider it, the TL's styling just has NOT grown on me so, IMHO this is one instance where looks are not subjective... 'cause it's just plain UGLY!)

Hapa DC5

So when you think of Acura you think of nicely styled cars? When I think of Acura from the 3G TLs run I do. Not anymore.

They are reliable, well built, safe and hold their value. Most don't consider them attractive vehicles anymore.

Hapa DC5

FWD and SH-AWD would be my preference above RWD cars if I lived up north.

fsttyms1

I would and so would many others

Colin

Hyundai and Acura face a similar challenge. When they reach a certain price point, many buyers say to themselves, "if I'm going to pay that much for [insert car], I might as well buy [insert competitor of higher prestige]"

It is true that a certain percentage of people will be swayed by "lower" brands promise of more features for less money, others will still go with the established car. In Hyundai Sonata's case, it would be the Accord, in Acura's case it would be a 3 series. IMO, it's the same battle at a different price point. (honestly, despite the relative success of the Infiniti G, it faces a similar battle vs. the 3 series, maybe more so, since they're attacking head on with RWD)

Costco

This is why when the Genesis came out, a few people started speculating that Hyundai would branch off as a luxury brand, either by distancing itself more from Kia or starting off an entirely new brand beginning with the Genesis.


I don't know how either one of them will do it, especially Hyundai. They seem serious about moving upmarket, as seen with their new Azera and the upcoming Equus, but they have much bigger hurdles than Acura, Lexus or Infiniti did. The aforementioned 3 basically came out of nowhere, which can be a good and bad thing, but the difference there is Hyundai has to overcome to perspective of some of an econobox brand and even then, a mediocre one. Sadly, there are some that still think that way.

YEH

Yeah, right.

Your method is about as accurate as throwing darts.

And oh, the higher volume Hyundai dealers not only get bigger alottments of Sonatas, but they sell 40-60 Sonatas monthly.

Hmm, Hyundai/Kia already outsell Honda/Acura in Canada and Europe (heck, for most of the year, Hyundai, alone, has outsold Honda in Canada).

Yeah, the US is a diff. market, but did you even bother to look at the sales figure before posting?

I sure will (for Nissan/Infiniti).

YTD, Hyundai/Kia are about 42K units behind Nissan + Infiniti (take out Infiniti and H/K lead by 50K units).

The new Optima, alone, will probably make up that 42K unit lead (the Optima has been avging about 2K a month; the new Optima should do at least 7K, but probably will do more like 9K month which is what the new Sorento is doing).

Add in sales of the new Elantra, Accent, Rio, Azera, Forte 5-door, etc. and H/K should zoom by Nissan/Infiniti.

As I stated, H/K passing Honda in 2011 isn't as likely (being currently about 200K units behind), but could happen in 2012 (or 2013) once Hyundai gets their production issues settled and the last of their new offerings hit the market (new Santa Fe, etc.)

F23A4

That statement is fairly absolute as I'm certain there are MANY folks who will (have have done) just that. However, I'm probably not in that camp as I'm still inclined towards an Accord EX-L V6 or Altima 3.5SE vs the Sonata 2.0T, the latter which I consider more of an alternative to the Mazda6 more than anything.

Colin

Of course then they'll be trying to sell a 5 year old Sonata against the all new Accord. So they could have additional production right when it's the hardest to move them. Deep discounts if they start piling up? Erosion in resale value as a result? Vicious cycle repeats.

YEH

^ Uhh, 2013 will only be the 3rd model year for the Sonata; and while a refresh for the Sonata would be right around the corner, aside from the turbo and hybrid models being in full production, the US market will also likely see a Sonata wagon by that time.

YEH

That statement is even funnier considering that people have traded in their Acuras for the Sonata (just saying it happens).

Colin

All I'm saying is that will Hyundai be successful selling a late in cycle product against all new product from the more established brands?

SSFTSX

and where would be that Hyundai dealer located and how many are they?. If they are selling 50 to 60 a month. It is still a montly supply.
and if you have only 14k sales (with fleet). so how are other dealers surviving. when avg is 14 car a month. and Sonata is 30% of Total hyundai sales.

This probably largest dealer of Hyundai with 178 Sonata in Inventory. so even 60 sales per month. there is 3 month of supply.

http://www.hardinhyundai.com/Vehicle...w&make=Hyundai






Honda sells high priced vehicles. Honda Fit/Jazz is priced like Hyundai Elantra. I am not going into Euro Accord/Euro Civic/Euro CRV. Euro CRV is more expensive than V6 hyundai SUVs.
You cannot compare Honda prices in EU with Hyundai in EU. Honda priced like Lexus in EU once you load Honda vehicles simlar like Lexus with push button start, pearl paints, leather, sport suspension etc.


Optima will just cannablizing Sonata sells. It does not bring anything new to the table. same worse fuel economy. (look at C&D test)

You dont have a clue of Nissan-Renault-AutoVaz (Enormous Oil and natural resource money is behind it) financial power and cross platform relationship and enormous number of vehicles and technologies that are simultanuous developed world wide.
Infiniti can afford high performance V6 diesel & V6 hybrid in EU but not Hyundai.
In 2012 there will be new CRV/Accord/Civic/Pilot/Insight
All with latest hybrid/V6/Transmissions. There will be sub-TSX car. there will be new RDX. There will be new MDX/RL
Acura/Honda has huge pent up demand for new technologies.
Hyundai cannot even outsell curent CRV.

YEH

Of course, other manufacturers will get the advantage when they debut new product, but Hyundai will be more successful than they have in the past late in the cycle (i.e. - the current Elantra and Santa Fe still sell fairly well even tho they are about to be replaced and the new Elantra and Santa Fe will be much more compelling competitors within their segments).

After all, the Genesis sedan is in its 3rd year of sale (about to undergo a refresh) and it's outselling the new Infiniti M.


% of Sonata sales to fleet is in the single digits (overall, Hyundai fleet sales have been around 11%).

Sales of the 2011 Sonata are averaging 22-23 a month/dealer (taking into account any fleet sales).

Smaller, low volume Hyundai dealerships will do 10-12 Sonatas a month (if not less); the bigger, high volume ones will do more.

While the new Optima will likely take some Sonata sales, it will take more from the sportier end of the segment (Altima, Mazda6).

The Sonata appeals more to women/families; the Optima appeals more to men.

Yeah, that's why Nissan/Infiniti gave up on the F segment and why they are leaning on Daimler for powerplants.

Not to mention that aside from Toyota, Hyundai is the only automaker to use an in-house developed/built 6 spd AT.

But Kia (w/ the Sorento) is outselling the Pilot.

SSFTSX

When so many manufacturers introduce new cars at same time from Toyota/Nissan/Honda. it will have impact. Nissan/Honda are on correct model cycles. It is Toyota that got delayed.

That include cheaper 2.0T Coupe and cheaper V6 Genesis.



Even 10% Sonata fleet sales. give you only 13k sales for retail and with 800 dealers. avg is 14 car per dealer.
So based on inventories of various dealers. even 20-23 car per month. gives you 3 month of supply. not 16 days.


Think harder why would Daimler supply them higher end engines to increase Nissan/Infiniti sales becaues they have some thing to gain from such huge resourcefull group like Renalut-Nissa-Autovaz.
It is not about Inhouse or outside but overall power of automotive group to influnce things in various markets. Nissan/Infiniti can concentrate on more higher end vehicles.


Kia Sorento is CRV competitor not Pilot.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I cant believe Im doing this, but I agree with you there. The Borego used to compete with the Pilot but they dont make it anymore.

Hapa DC5

Do they still make the Sportage?

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Yes. It's all new for 2011 also. It features improved ground clearance and so much elegance it doesn't need nice wheels, just like we were proven with the RL.

It should sell Kia nicely around 75 units a month, keeping it highly exclusive for the select few.

Edit: Forgot to insert random pictures to make sure your mind is altered and you begin to love it.

Hapa DC5

Wider, better ground clearance, side view mirrors with LED signals, what's not to love!

Hapa DC5

So what does the Sportage compete with? I always thought of it as a CR-V competitor in some sort?

Bitmevn

Sportage is CR-V competitor, Sorento is bigger than Sportage. CR-V and Sportage have 5 seats and no V6 engine. Sorento has V6 engine. Kia Sorento is equilavent to Hyundai Santa Fe, smaller than Toyota Highlander and Honda Pilot (in size) but bigger than Toyota RAV4 and Honda CR-V.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kia_Sorento
The Kia Sorento is a mid-size crossover SUV produced since 2002 by the South Korean automaker Kia Motors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CR-V
The Honda CR-V is a compact crossover SUV manufactured by the Japanese company Honda since 1995.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Pilot
The Honda Pilot is a mid-size crossover SUV.<sup id="cite_ref-0" class="reference">[1]</sup> The Honda Pilot is built in Lincoln, Alabama, and was also produced in Alliston, Ontario, Canada up until April 2007.

CR-V has never been called a mid-size SUV !

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

CR-V, Escape, Rouge . . . .

Colin

An interesting review of 2010 for Honda. From Automotive News:
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...312069954/1178

The also talk about specific issues with slow selling niche product like the CR-Z, Crosstour, Insight as well as the drop off in owner loyalty due to styling etc. They summed it all up this way:

Costco

Yup.... Insight, Crosstour and CR-Z sales are slouching. We never saw this coming! When you design cars that look this good, how can they not sell?!

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/06/c...ne-bright-spo/


Funny enough though, a friend of mine, who has no interest in minivans whatsoever, thought the new Odyssey actually looked quite good. He also happens to dislike basically every Honda ever made, and would probably never buy a Civic, if it matters.

I hate to beat on a dead horse, but the styling of car shouldn't be underestimated when it comes to qualities in a car. Too late now to make the drastic changes necessary but if cars like the 4G TL, and matters of taste are relative, but if it were designed to appeal to a broader audience, I'm sure at the very least it would seal the deal for prospective car buyers and Acura would move at least a few thousand more TLs each year. Also, only 156 ZDXs were sold in November finally, the RL isn't the sales dog of Honda's entire lineup.... though it's not much better (168 RLs sold)

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...01/509123.html

However, it looks like as a brand on the whole, Honda has improved over it's 2009 numbers by 16.1% as a brand. Good for them. Like a commenter said though, it seems like many of the best designers for Japan moved west to South Korea.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I hope the sales figures are a wakeup call.

biker

I still think the best looking designs usually come out of European design firms. Honda's CA facility may sometimes come up with some decent concept cars but by the time they get to production they just don't appeal. And recently they must have had an infusion of guys that worked on the Aztec.

yohan81718

i'm about to mute SSFTSX once again.... lol

dom

Why in the hell would you un-mute him in the first place?

Costco

I agree, though I don't have much familiarity with many Euro products, I think the Civic Type-R is one of the few Japanese Hondas that looks better than it's European variant. For the most part, a lot of models that are spawning from Ingolstadt and Stuttgart look great.... Munich is another story.

oh, and European Fords, GMs, etc. all look great. I read somewhere that Ford is planning to adopt a global lineup - meaning the vaunted Euro Ford models will be coming stateside....

yup, it's here! http://www.ford.com/cars/focus/2012/

Focus RS
Holden Commodore
JDM CTR

yohan81718

it was entertaining for a moment lol

Shift_Acura

Acura is the only one that offers AWD and FWD?

They actually have the least amount of vehicles with AWD, compared to other luxury brands.

Not to worry though, lets just pretend we didn't hear about Acura outselling Lexus and Infiniti....where were we now....ah yes, Acura sucks! Only 5AT FWD! NO RWD V8! wtf Whats up with that!

SSFTSX

Acura is beating EPA figures by wide margin. Audi S4/Suzuki K cant do it.
I have always maintain when driving hard. Acura will emerge as winner among all auto makers.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/lo...long-term-cars
At 26,576 miles, our TL-SH AWD so far has required three oil changes as determined by the on-board maintenance computer. In addition, the SH-AWD rear differential’s break-in oil was changed out at 15K as scheduled, and the only things that seem to be wearing down with each hard-charging mile are the sticky Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 tires.

HBaJ

Who cares about company EPA figures? Thats not what I think of when I go out to purchase a new car, and doesn't reflect a car as an individual at all. That's like saying I wouldn't have bought a Legend because I got scared as soon I went to the dealership and saw an SLX sitting out front.

"This M3 sure is nice, if only BMW could match the outstanding fuel efficiency of all Acuras then I would consider it."

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

That true. Audi S4 EPA rating of 18 city/28 highway/21 combined do not compare to Acura ratings.

2011 TL FWD
18 city/26 highway/21 combined
2011 TL AWD
17 city/25 highway/20 combined

Hapa DC5

Do they not have almost every sedan (sans the RL) offered in FWD? Do they not offer the RDX in FWD? It's more logical given the choice to have those cars where the winter weather isn't so nice.

Keep stirring the pot.....

Hapa DC5

"Were talking real world fuel economy, superior side mirror design is more aerodynamic, higher ground clearance allows more air to flow under vehicle increasing fuel economy. Inferior German engineers are unaware of this."

That's the official response.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

And yet it doesn't help its mileage enough Stinkin' jermanz.