Colin

No, but its easy to find fault everywhere. I just think that most (not all) of the so called 'enthusiasts' are hypocritical.

dom

A valid point. But it has to tell us something (I don't know the answer) but it must tell us something that Honda seems to be the only large scale manufacturer to build their own transmissions. So either everyone else is out to lunch or there's a business case to be made for outsourcing. The numbers tell me there must be a benifit to outsourcing. Yet somehow Honda disagree's. I'd be interested to hear their reasoning.

And Colin, IMO if you come to a site like this with any regularity to hear about and discuss car news you are IMO an enthusiast. Of course your definition may be different.

Colin

It's probably because till the current generation of engines, all Honda's crankshafts rotated the opposite of the automotive norm. They had no choice but to make their own.

Moog-Type-S

What you will find here is that most of the Honda "critics" are "jilted Honda lovers". Die hard Honda/Acura fans that are so upset to watch Honda go off the rails, with crazy off the wall designs, falling behind in engine & tranny tech....etc and so on.....while meanwhile domestic and Korean mfg. are leapfrogging them.

Most have gone off to purchase vehicles from other makes, or have stated they will when it comes time for the new vehicle.

You can understand why they are a little bent.

jperdoch

I own 3 Hondas and an Acura TL-S, used to own a Legend but no way would I buy a new TL..That front end just does not work..almost looks French

Legend2TL

Some of the Honda critics can see the good and the bad. However you are just like an annoying skipping record constantly bitching about all the bad Honda/Acura does, never seeing any good at all from them. That just points that you're just a heavily biased, nothing more or less.

Other critics and enthusiasts (myself included) don't like everything at Honda/Acura but can acknowledge the good stuff currently out there (CRV, Civic, MDX, Odyssey,...) and not good (TL, cancellation of NSX,...).

To be a decent critic you have to be subjective and look at all aspects of something.

CL6

Honda builds a solid car but a 6 speed AT should have been standard back in 2004 when the new TL came out. Dropping the diesel I agree with, the Power Plenum grille I don't. Also Acura should not have killed off the NSX/CL/RSX without a replacement. When you're trying to sell these cars for a living it makes it tough when your line-up is getting smaller while that of your competition is growing. Maybe management thought they could let Acura coast while they worked on the new Civic and Fit for Honda but they made a big mistake I think.

dom

You realize he owns an Odyssey don't you.

neuronbob

Sorry to hear about this.

Hopefully when the economy comes back a little more, Honda will reconsider.

Shift_Acura

Fit vs. Accent

Civic vs. Elantra

Accord vs. Sonata

CR-V vs. Tuscan

Pilot vs. Santa Fe

I'm not even into Honda's but to me the Honda wins every comparison here^ (The SUV's could definately be debated though lol)

The Genesis vs. TL now thats a different story lol

agranado

fit and civic are better than accent and elantra, accord is a powerhouse but the Sonata is no pushover anymore, and I think the Santa Fe is an excellent SUV. Not sure about the Tuscan.

And the Genesis is absolutely stunning. Exteriorwise, Genesis all the way. Interior though, still gotta hand it to Acura. At least they haven't fucked THAT up yet.

JediMindTricks

imo, it says something that hyundai have released several cars that compete in markets/segments honda's not even in.

Moog-Type-S

Please.....I've commented many times about how great Honda's products are......when they are in fact great.

...but you have to have your head burried in the sand if you think Honda's past few years have produced anything to "write home about".

The Acura line-up is a mess.....except for the MDX.
The Honda line-up is a mess....except for the Oddy, Fit, Civic.

IMHO the Fit is the best thing Honda has going for it right now.

I'd venture to bet that I have owned more Honda products over the years than you.....if that means anything.

....and a couple of them currently reside in my garage.

Fanboy I am not. Auto enthusiast....yes.

Don't be a tool.

Moog-Type-S

It speaks volumes.

Moog-Type-S

Oh noes........I've been outed!!!!!

...boy when word gets out about the other Honda vehicle I own......all hell is gonna break loose!!!!

Colin

It does. It says that they don't really want to go 'head to head' and like Mazda, they try to skirt around the edge of a segment. It just makes good business sense. Acura does it too. The TSX for example lands in a strange 'nether-region' between the other brands (Lexus, BMW etc) entry level cars in terms of size, price, and feature content.

dom

What model is it anyway?

You getting a VFR1200 with dual clutch?

dom

Honda plays that game? With the Ridgeline and Element maybe. But Honda doesn't seem afraid to go head to head on anything else.

Acura clearly plays this game.

Colin

I didn't mention Honda but I agree, in certain segments they try to avoid direct comparisons. Ridgeline yes, Element maybe. LOL, I'm not sure what segment they were avoiding (or aiming for) with that one.... Ironically, the MDX is aimed squarely at the crossover SUV market and does quite well.

biker

A RWD mower?

Moog-Type-S

Bike with dual-clutch FTL!!!

I've had the bike since 2004....it's a VTX....see the Bike thread in Car Talk for pics. It's a fantastic machine!

Colin

RPD (Rear Propeller Drive) in a boat?

fsttyms1

They should have worked harder to correct the problem for those that had the glass trans and not shafted them the way they did.
Sure honda builds a few decent products, but they seem to be going backwards while others are moving forward.


Oh and i do know that Honda does have a trans out sourced to a company (I have a friend in the power train field for the military division of Oshkosh Truck ) that said the company he visited is working on a trans for Honda, and a 7/8 speed for GM (thats all the info i have)

Colin

So what do you want me (or anybody) to say? Shoulda Coulda? I'm sorry, but I choose to focus on being neutral and, while not ignoring the negative, understand we can't change what happened in 2001. We can either remain fixated on this or we can move on.

On a side note. This site has some of the most negative Moderators around. I'm not saying that as enthusiasts, you're not entitled to an opinion but having Mods chime into so many threads to say the same thing over and over again, is anything but "Moderate".
Anyway, try to take this as an observation and a simple call for some 'self-reflection'. If you feel that I'm way out of line for suggesting this, no problem.... moving on.

Legend2TL

, where are all your great comments on how great Honda's are? I only seem to see your constant Honda/Acura whining and complaining.

And great Honda products in the last few years, the current gen Civic and CRV are two excellent examples.

You have no right to tell anyone he's a tool.

(Cj)

You're are correct for the most part and sales are backing what you're saying up. Acura's sales are in the toilet, except for the new V6 TSX, and Honda's aren't anything to write home about. The only Honda selling at an impressive rate (for it's class) is the Fit, but the Mazda2 and Fiesta are coming next year which might make the Fit lose some of it's thunder. Acura is saying the ZDX will only sell 6000 units a year so Acura doesn't have anything in the near term to save their sales.

fsttyms1

No you cant change what happened in the past BUT honda back then when they knew of the problems they should have done more to try to solve it. Im not asking for them to change what they did (other than make a better product in the future)
I am neutral. I still own my 2000 TL with 320,000 miles on it. I just bought a prelude, My family has hondas. I however will not buy a honda product (other than their lawn mowers) until they build something that I am looking for and like.
Side note, we as moderators are ENTITLED to our opinion JUST like you are. Our job is to help keep this site running and by doing so that doesnt mean we have to agree with the likes of those that have different opinions as us. We DONT have to like every thing honda builds. We have just as much right to scrutinize them as we do to rave about them.

Moving on.

VTEC Racer

How about the CR-V? It's only the best-selling SUV in the U.S. Or the Odyssey, the best selling mini-van in the U.S. Or even the old Civic, selling more than double (20k vs 43K) the number of Corollas (still a new car) sold last month. Don't forget the Accord selling almost 40K units (Camry @ 25k INCLUDING fleet sales). All this with the true cost of incentives for Toyota coming in at $1,516 per car and $931 for Honda. So in other words, the cars mentioned above which all have a higher starting MSRP compared to their Toyota counterpart and a lower incentive to buy sold in substantially greater numbers, yet "Honda's aren't anything to write home about." Seems like last month the buying public seemed to differ greatly from your "opinion." Sales are down for everyone, but you need to compare sales to the direct competition to gauge a better opinion. Percentages don't mean anything if you don't look at the whole picture. Honda is doing something right because they are still in the black, unlike Toyota which is going on two years and counting in the red.

Colin

Apparently, I'm wrong in my assessment. My apologies.

dom

This isn't hondalovefest.com

IMO Acura hasn't given enthusiasts much to be happy about lately so that's played into this 'negativity'?

Put aside the styling issue for a second. They don't IMO have anything resembling something sporty. Am I the only one who feels that way? A 4000lb sedan with AWD doesn't exactly stir the senses.

Of course you'll argue that Honda never made the car we're now looking for so we should just move on. I get that point but at the same time don't agree with it. I am/was a loyal customer and feel its the manufactuers responsibility to meet my needs as the customer, not my responsibility to settle for what they have. Ultimately, they either will or won't and life goes on. Sure we bitch now but we'll get over it.

But understand that these forums are here for us to discuss things like this. Look at their lineup and try to understand why.

Jeff over at TOV has had that site for how long now? I'm guessing 10+ years. Even he has a hard time remaining postive these days. I don't think Honda enthusiasts come any bigger.

Colin

I never said it had to be lovefest.com. I never said not to express your opinion, in fact, specifically detailed your right to do so. AND I never said you have to be positive. I said, that I try to be positive. Dom, I don't really get into flame wars, read carefully please.

In the case of Jeff, he may not be overly pleased with the direction, but he doesn't jump into every thread with his opinion either. I know what his opinion is because if directly asked, he'll tell you. But he doesn't pepper every post with redundant comments.

Again, as I mentioned earlier. If, after considering what I said, you come to the conclusion that I'm out of line, we're cool. I was only asking for the Mods to take a "step back" for a second.

Colin

Separate post for this (since its back to cars). If this is not the recipe for 'stirring the senses' what about the A4? This is a similarly heavy AWD car, yet some (not saying you) fawn over it.

No, there has to be more to this. It seems as if there is a yearning for Acura to make an S4 version of the TL. Even though nobody would really buy it, this seems to offer some comfort that they could have and this somehow makes the A4 acceptable. I don't know.

Edward'TLS

If Acura were to make a S4 version 340hp V8 AWD TL, I would run to the dealership and order one in my pyjamas. If not of the shitty tranny on my TL-S, I won't be so desperate.

Edward'TLS

Sorry. I take it back.

I was overwhelmed by the V8 that I totally forgot about how freaking ugly the front of the current TL looks. I won't buy any ugly car even if it could fly.

My correction as below :

If Acura were to make a S4 version 340hp V8 AWD TL with a redesigned good-looking front end, I would run to the dealership and order one in my pyjamas.

Belzebutt

I think he's wrong to harp about weight, but for me it's not just about weight, it's about balance. The TL and A4 weigh about the same (~3700 lbs) and given that my old nimble TSX weighed 3500 lbs that doesn't seem at all porky for cars that add AWD.

What the TL does lack is balance, it's a front-heavy design and it looks that way. As the latest A4 grew in size, Audi got away from that and balanced their design along with adding a rear-biased AWD option. The car's balance is quite nice now, weight wise and with fairly short front overhang which gives it a nice balanced look.

Acura on the other hand keeps putting more power at the front, but they put even more weight and visual mass at the front and compensate (on some models) with some fancy AWD assist at the back. That kind of design doesn't seem as sporty and elegant as balancing the weight towards the rear, it's more of a brute-force approach.

I think the plenum design would look a hell of a lot better if the nose of the car didn't have to be so huge.

Mansa24

YTD 2009
Lexus- 149,408
BMW- 144,223
Mercedes- 135,413
Acura- 76,628
Cadillac- 73,024
Buick- 72,389
Infiniti- 59,886
Audi- 59,518
Lincoln- 59,236
Volvo- 46,729
Saab- 6,928

Colin

Is that really how you spell pygamas?

dom

Flame war? I'm hardly trying to argue with you. If thats how it came across I apologize. I think you know how much I respect your opinion. (don't always agree but respect it) I just don't have the same ability to remain positive these days. And believe me when I tell you, I've spent the last 10-15 years praising Honda as far as any car buying reccomendations went.

I've seen Jeff offer his opinion without being asked much more frequenly. He seems to be having a difficult time remaining objective these days. Point is, there are reason's to complain.

And no you're not out of line, at least that's how I feel.

dom

I was generalizing. I'm fully aware that most sedans tip the scales at close to 4K these days.

But like you said, even if they weigh the same, the A4 IMO has a far sportier presence. Having the S4 around doesn't hurt with that perception.

dom

Look at the A4...then look at the TL. Enough said.

Having said that the 09 A4 I drove had absolutely terrible overly light steering. Although I'm told that was due to the lack of a sport package.