Aman

That's my point. All carmakers are first and foremost a business, and a business' raison d'etre is to make money. As long as the Civic sells, it'll make money for Honda. It seems like they no longer give two shits about how that money comes in. Many of us probably won't buy it because we're more educated than your average consumer when it comes to cars, and we know there are a ton of other alternatives that the average consumer might not. How much more household can you get than Honda Civic?

Will this car be successful in our eyes? Probably not, based on what we've seen. It probably won't break any new ground, won't have many new features, or be as competitive as it once was.

Will it be successful to Honda? As long as it sells, which it probably will, then yes.

Maybe I should've clarified. Like I said, Honda and the Civic are household names. Naive consumers walk into a Honda dealership, say "I heard your cars are good", and walk out with basic transportation. I'd be willing to bet the majority of Civics sold are DXs and not high-end models with that leatherette stuff on the seats, or Civic Sis.

Aman

Question: Aside from exterior styling, what's not to like about most modern Honda/Acuras? I think most are still competitive tech-wise, and they're still being praised for their drivetrains/suspension, interior quality, and such.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

This is a completely subjective question, and the answers will vary from person to person. But these are my major gripes:

The J Series. Its a bit long in the tooth (it debuted in 96). Yes, it has evolved since then, grown in displacement, and gained power. But it isn't cutting it in the Pilot and the "oh-they-still-make-that?" Ridgeline. It isn't cutting it in the RL. MDX, or ZDX either. Im not saying ditch it all together. They can use it as the base engine. But look at the engine options Infiniti, Lexus, MB, and BMW have for their vehicles (Im talking about Acura). I understand the volume sellers are the smaller engines. But big engines with big power bring people in the door.

The tech in the Acura line is pretty good. Acura has always been pretty damn good when it came to tech content per dollar. But when a Ford Focus has Sync, I expect the Civic to have something at least remotely similar. The Focus SES (with SYNC and the moonroof) comes out to $1000 less then the Civic EX (with foglights, as the Focus has that stock). Then theres the Kia Forte EX, which when similarly equipped is about $4000 less then the Civic. With the Forte, you can go with a fully loaded SX model - 173hp, 6MT, satellite radio, bluetooth, leather, auto dimming mirror with homelink - and still come out cheaper then the MT-equipped Civic EX.

Are Hondas good cars? Yes. But the problem is Honda knows that. They already have the brand image they want, and it appears as though they are no longer working as hard to maintain it and dont want to even acknowledge their competition.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I guess the main reason behind that "disconnected" feeling is the use of electric steering instead of hydraulic? This technology is relatively new and it seems like car manufacturers in general are still trying to get it to feel more connected.

Fortunately, the Civic Type R actually uses hydraulic steering, that just shows how much Honda cares about the enthusiasts. But bad news is the Type R is not being sold in North America.....

Another main reason is probably weight? Consumers these days want cars to have a lot of features, they want them to be really quiet and comfortable; all of these add weight. Safety regulations also has a huge effect and cars just keeping getting heavier...I think a lighter car in general feels more connected than a heavier cars loaded with the latest gadgets.

Yea, the eg and ek civics were classic cars IMO....unfortunately, for the reasons I mentioned above, I don't think we will ever see cars like the ek/eg again...

fsttyms1

This!

Colin

This is my take:

The J series replacement is probably ready to debut soon. But IMO, the current engine is following a normal development cycle. Neither early or late in arriving. Many manufacturers keep engines in place much longer.

I don't pretend to know this for sure, but knowing Microsoft, I'm guessing that Ford is licensing the tech. If I was Ford, I'd try to lock in an exclusive. IMO, this is probably the reason that for several years ONLY Ford had Sync. This would mean that others would have to develop a competing system 'in house' or seek other solutions. Also, (knowing Microsoft) I'm sure there are patents to contend with. So not only does Sync have a 2 year head start, but competitors have to work doubly hard to catch up AND not infringe.

fsttyms1

If the new motor doesnt have dohc, chain driven, or a classification of something other than J series i will have lost all hope in honda.


Im sure ford has the sync licensed but that doesnt mean honda cant come up with something similar or better. Apple is still out there, there are many companies that could help develop something nice like that, that would help in the market segment.

Colin

I'd look for chain drive, and hopefully they can accommodate two heads for the engine. IMO, making a SOHC engine with 4 valves and intake and exhaust VTEC is a Honda trait. This type of engineering is what makes them great in the first place. I'd hope that the next engine will still offer the compact virtues of the current SOHC head for the mainstream cars. AND that they have a 'wild' DOHC for the more performance oriented cars.

No it doesn't, but what do you do? Snap your fingers and make it happen? And what is an acceptable timeframe for such development? I wonder how long Sync was under development? 2, 3, 4 years?

I'm sure that everyone wants to work with Apple, but does Apple want to work with everyone? Jobs is probably too much of a 'control freak' for most car companies to deal with. Their business model has not typically included this type of 'sub-contracting' work (like Bose for example).

Google (Android) or Cisco are the only other companies that come to mind with the necessary capital, engineering talent, to mount such a challenge but do they see profit in this arena? (I think Google is starting to dabble, but then again, they dabble in everything)

fsttyms1

Im sure this would be a valid argument BUT, sync has been out for a quite a few years now. Im pretty sure honda could have come out with something similar in upcoming models, or at min have something in the works (which i doubt they do)

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Yea, Honda does have a way of keeping engines around for awhile (C series was over 20yrs old). But the engine blocks are pretty limited to the 3.7-3.8l range as they are. The J series can be very potent engines, but it would be nice to see a DOHC (VTEC on both intake and exhaust), chain driven, direct injection motor. With DOHC and VTEC on both cams, they should be able to drop displacement and create good power. Toss in DI and that should improve gas mileage. Of course, I have to state this since we are in Auto News, this is just what I believe they should do. It may not be the financially smart thing to do, but its just what I am looking for.

I think a good match for Honda would be Google. IIRC I saw an article a while ago stating Benz is getting Google powered ICE. They may have an exclusivity agreement, but I doubt its a strict license barring any other company from using Google in their car. I think it would be great to have Google Maps and nav in my dash. Of course, Im an Android fanboy.

Colin

But it's not just Honda. A 15-20 year lifespan on a well engineered engine is the norm. Heck, even poorly engineered engines can stick around that long.

Its just so conflicted. For example, on the one hand, people clamor for the 'old Honda' which was independent and did things their own way. At the same time, they complain that Honda isn't copying everyone else with DI, RWD, Turbos, Sync, LEDs or whatever the trending fad is.

dom

Well, what defines old Honda? Probably not the same for everyone.

The first few things that come to mind for me was fun to drive, reliable, fuel efficient, good looking and cutting edge as far as engine technology went, (in a HP per litre way). Back then there was no doubt in my mind who made the best engine.

Today, IMO they only have 2 of those 5 things going for them.

And back then nobody had Sync or dual clutch transmissions. Hell, a CD player was a nice bonus. A car was a much simpler thing to build. Honda was considered ahead of the curve with VTEC. Today? what engine technology can they lead with? Can't tell you how many times I heard or pulled the 'but Honda was the first to introduce variable valve timing' card.

Honda hasn't changed all that much, and THAT is what seems to be the problem IMO. They're no longer leading.

The other thing is, (I've said this before) It was the Integra's, Preludes, Si's and CL's that lead most of us to Honda and to a Honda enthusiast site in the first place. But now we're pretty much left without a dance partner, unless the Civic Si is your thing. But we're not 18 anymore.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

This:

Colin

I'm a little more charitable than you. IMO, they are still fun to drive, when compared to the competition. An Accord or Civic is still more engaging than a Camry or Corolla. Reliability and Fuel Efficiency remain traits where they still excel. Styling... well that's pretty subjective, but suffice to say, they've been slagged for "boring" styling for years, I don't know what the answer is here, but I think the spy pics of the Civic look pretty modern without being too risky.

Engine Tech. IMO, they are at the end if the V-6 product cycle competing against many newer engines. Still they are very close in most categories. Again, IMO, it must take some tech to do this so while it might not be evident, something is going on.

I just watched a 9 minute video about the "old" (read current) Civic Hybrid. Worth a watch if you have the attention span. There is a ton of work that went into this drivetrain and I'm sure there are improvements in store for the new Civic.

http://www.world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2005-4050705b/

IMO, Honda is finding it is harder to lead than chase. Don't worry, so did Toyota and so did GM. It seems like it's the "American" way to pull for the underdog, evidenced by the sudden 'lovefest' for Hyundai and Audi.

Colin

The top versions of the J use intake and exhaust VTEC, but it is SOHC.

fsttyms1

I disagree.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Yea, I believe its the TL 3.7 and possibly the RL but Im not sure. I just mentioned VTEC on both cams because certain Ks and IIRC the B series had only intake. I think the H22 was the same as well.

Colin

I thought the top Preludes used twin cam VTEC? It's funny, at one point around 2001-2002, I had sold at least one of every car that Honda made, including NSX, Insight, S2000 and Prelude. But it was only one Prelude ever. I guess I never liked the car enough to be enthusiastic about it and it must have shown.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I dont believe they did. I used to have a 94 VTEC model. I loved that car. The backseat was worthless but I didn't need it. Next to the Cs from the NSX, I think the H22 is the best sounding motor at full song that Honda produced.

majin ssj eric

I had a two Prelude VTECs (a 94 and a 95, both dark green). I still think that first one is my favorite all time car I have ever owned. Sure my G37 kills it in, well, everything. But I was 18 when I got my first Prelude and it was my dream car since before I could drive. The triangle tails, futuristic (for the time) electroluminescent gauges, incredible H22A under the hood all conspired to make the car far more special than anything on the market at the time. I loved it so much that I bought another one 5 years later.

The NSX and S2000 may be the best cars Honda ever made but the 4th gen Prelude VTEC is my personal favorite Honda of all time...

dom

True enough.

Those were the 2 I was pointing out. Despite the issues I've had with my 04 TSX (first year gremlins) and 07 Ody I still think they're at or near the top as far a reliability goes. No one builds em like they used to IMO.

Side Note:
Just had a conversation with a friend of mine who's about to put $3,000 into a 94 Civic coupe. Car runs great so most of that 3K is going into the body. Most think he's nuts but he's convinced he'll get another 5 years out of it. I won't be surprised if he does.


Agreed. The next 6-18 months will be telling.

TSX69

Honda Civic Sales Ending in Japan

According to a report from Japan's Nikkei.com, Honda will stop selling the Civic sedan in its home market as soon as existing inventories run out. As customers shift their focus towards MPVs and more compact vehicles, the popularity of the Civic has dwindled substantially in Japan – only 452 of the trusty Honda sedans were sold in the automaker's domestic market during the month of October.

Honda is still committed to offering the Civic sedan in other markets, such as the United States and Europe, where sales numbers are substantially more robust. In fact, new versions of both the U.S.- and Euro-spec Civics are set to bow sometime next year. Honda will continue to manufacturer Civic sedas at its Suzuka plant for export purposes. It's unclear whether Honda will continue to import the European-built Civic Type R Euro hatchback into Japan.

dave_ramkumar

iTrader: (5)

tell me tooo





worst civic ever

phile

really?! it's just kinda hard to believe something so bread and butter like the Civic would be discontinued anywhere.

dave_ramkumar

iTrader: (5)

+1

and even more strange , its homeland

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Theyve got alot of four doors and other small cars over there. It doesnt make sense to keep something that doesnt sell well.

dom

Guess its just to big for that market. The Fit may be one of the cars that has taken its place.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Or possibly even the Insight.

Moog-Type-S

If Honda continues with the same stale civic design carry-over for the next gen (as it appears they are doing) , then they can go ahead and axe it from the U.S. too.

Plenty of Fiesta, Focus, Cruze, Elantra, Jetta, Golf, Mazda 3, Mazda 2.....and on and on to take its place.

biker

They pulled the plug on the Legend as well, but in the US that kind of mentality is lost - keep selling the RL despite dismal sales volume.

F-C

It could be argued that the Fit is more true to the original spirit of the Civic anyway.

TSX69

Honda to Expand Sales of Natural Gas Civics

LOS ANGELES (Bloomberg) -- Honda Motor Co., the only automaker currently selling a natural gas-powered car to U.S. consumers, plans to expand sales to most of the 50 states next year, up from four now, U.S. Executive Vice President John Mendel said.

“You will see us expand sales of Civic GX across the country,” Mendel told reporters in a briefing at the Los Angeles Auto Show. “It'll be a whole new vehicle,” he said, without elaborating.

The company will make the sales announcement in conjunction with plans to revamp the Civic lineup in 2011, Mendel said.

Honda, which has sold a natural gas Civic for the past decade, promotes the fuel because it creates less pollution than gasoline and is available entirely from domestic sources. Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler Group LLC have also said they're developing natural gas models.

The current federal incentive for the purchase of a natural gas car is $3,500, Mendel said. While Honda has sold about 2,000 units of the Civic GX a year, it will sell only about 1,200 this year because of the plans to revamp the model, he said.

Global warming

Boone Pickens, founder and chairman of Dallas-based BP Capital LLC, said this week a bill to help convert the U.S. trucking fleets to natural gas may pass Congress by year-end with bipartisan support.

Pickens wants buses and trucks that run on natural gas to replace the diesel and gasoline engines that contribute to global warming. Diesel and gas engines also increase U.S. oil imports and cost the country as much as $1 billion a day, Pickens says.

The measure, which Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid introduced in September, has support from Republicans and Democrats and may be the first major legislation during the Obama administration to win support from both parties, Pickens said.

Mendel declined to provide a sales goal for the revamped natural gas Civic. Honda's U.S. unit.

Aman

Which four states is it being sold in right now? California, something, something, and something I'm guessing

TSX69

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/

For 2010, the Civic GX NGV was named "Greenest Vehicle" for the 7th consecutive year by the American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy (ACEEE).

In addition to the fleet customers it has been serving since the 1998 model year, the natural gas powered Civic GX is available to retail customers in California, New York, Utah and Oklahoma.

biker

The problem for this will be the same as the EVs (lack of infrastructure) but at least it does have a much longer range.

speedemon90

But thats a camry and corolla. Which is in no ways suppose to be fun to drive. Toyota is not marketing that, maybe honda isnt also.

But the first thing that comes to mind is the mazda 3 which is a whole lot more engaging than the civic. This is from what I've read though. To me, this current gen civic has always been boring.

speedemon90

In all the comparo tests I read with the fit, it always wins.

The civic, not so much.

Colin

I think you're missing what I was trying to point out. Cars in the marketplace are compared to each other. The Accord and Civic have always been compared to the Camry and Corolla. As each generation of cars gets larger and more mainstream, it's natural that certain attributes will change.

So yes, compared to a 1995 Civic (for example), the current one is larger and may not be as fun to drive. But a '95 Civic isn't a competitor to the 2011 Civic, the 2011 Corolla is. So compared to a contemporary, the Civic is more fun to drive while still maintaining mainstream sensibilities.

The question of whether they should remake a '95 Civic isn't the one I was answering, nor was I saying the Civic was more fun than a Mazda 3.

phile

2011 Coupe rendering

http://photos.newswire.ca/cnw-bin/cn...213_113205.jpg

03tLsNBP

iTrader: (9)

^ now thats more like it.