Acura: ZDX News
08-24-2009, 11:28 AM
#1041
AZ Community Team
agreed, the 4WD/AWD/part-time systems have proliferated since the 80's. And with that the terminology of the various systems have become more gray area in what is AWD, part-time, full-time, 4WD, automatic, manual... it does become hard to compare what is which type. Audi truely pioneered the road full-time AWD. The biggest determent to me is the weight, power lose, fuel economy, and complexity of the systems. The ZDX only gets 16/22/18MPG EPA so the statement of a future green Acura is amusing.
08-24-2009, 11:36 AM
#1042
Go Big Blue!
^^ yes, no question it's all a convenient way for Honda to explain away the reluctance to build a separate RWD platform for Acura. They just don't want to develop a separate platform at this time. Why they won't say that is beyond me. Nothing inheritly bad about it. Saves a ton of money. Look at the Lexus ES and GS. ES can be built much more economically than the GS with it sharing the platform with the Camary. By the way, which one do they sell boat loads more of eventhough they are functionally the same? That doesnt really help the RWD argument much when we try to associate RWD to sales and thus Acura's lack of competivness (in some minds) with Lexus and Infiniti. Could it be that it's not just all about RWD?
08-24-2009, 11:46 AM
#1043
Senior Moderator
I've always said that if Acura ever came out with a RWD platform they should continue selling a FWD sedan based off the Accord. The market is obviously there. But it shouldn't be your only option.
08-24-2009, 11:56 AM
#1044
Senior Moderator
Part of the reason for the ES outselling the GS might also be the price difference. The ES starts just under $35k, while the GS is $10k more expensive at $45k.
There are also a lot of people living in climates that get snow, who do not want RWD.
There are also a lot of people living in climates that get snow, who do not want RWD.
08-24-2009, 11:58 AM
#1045
AZ Community Team
^^ yes, no question it's all a convenient way for Honda to explain away the reluctance to build a separate RWD platform for Acura. They just don't want to develop a separate platform at this time. Why they won't say that is beyond me. Nothing inheritly bad about it. Saves a ton of money. Look at the Lexus ES and GS. ES can be built much more economically than the GS with it sharing the platform with the Camary. By the way, which one do they sell boat loads more of eventhough they are functionally the same? That doesnt really help the RWD argument much when we try to associate RWD to sales and thus Acura's lack of competivness (in some minds) with Lexus and Infiniti. Could it be that it's not just all about RWD?
The Honda board knows how much it cost for separate platforms for the 2G Legend, 1G RL, 1G TL, so they imposed pretty hard requirements down for the 2G TL and 1G MDX. Despite re-using alot of a Accord and a Odyssey technology both the 2G/3G TL and 1G MDX are great sales successes. And look at the ES, most owners I'd bet probably don't care if it's FWD or RWD.
My guess is a dramatic FWD/RWD changeover is too financially risky to the Honda board. Wouldn't it be a heck of lot cheaper to redo the front-end styling across the entire range of vehicles. Acura is not Audi, but look at Audi and their recent success and they've never changed their FWD/AWD approach.
08-24-2009, 11:59 AM
#1046
Go Big Blue!
Agree. Point is it's just rarely black and white simple. Tough poblems to solve are usually tough because they are multifaceted making it dificult to see the issue and then fix it. Just saying....
08-24-2009, 12:02 PM
#1047
They have IS250/IS350. IS350 outperforms GS350. $50K segment is very competitive. they can easily upgrade to 535/E350/A6 for few grand more. and that few grand matters in mid $30K segment.
08-24-2009, 12:08 PM
#1048
Senior Moderator
In what universe do the BMW 5 series, MB E350, and Audi A6 start in the mid $30k segment? Did you mean $40k segment?
08-24-2009, 12:10 PM
#1049
I said those looking into buying cars in mid 30K. going $10K more is big difference. but those who are willing to spend $50K. going more towards $55K is not a big deal.
08-24-2009, 12:35 PM
#1051
One of it's best complements to me was when Mario Andretti drove a bunch of exotic cars in a Road and Track comparison test in the 90's (at Willow Springs?). At the time Mario had no Honda sponsorship or connections, yet of all the exotics the best he prefered the NSX to the rest from Porsche, Ferrari,...
08-24-2009, 12:42 PM
#1052
AZ Community Team
08-24-2009, 12:48 PM
#1053
Go Big Blue!
Honda is definitely failing with Acura by most measures. But I won't go so far as to say that's because management and it's BOD is staffed by monkeys. It's just not easy and succeeding in the auto industry in the U.S. is brutally hard. There's lots more failures than successes.
08-24-2009, 01:06 PM
#1054
Senior Moderator
^ I think image plays a big role in that case, as well. Lexus has much more brand prestige than Acura, probably contributing to the fact that they (and BMW) sell many more ESs and 3s.
You're absolutely right, it's complicated. There are many factors at work here.
You're absolutely right, it's complicated. There are many factors at work here.
08-24-2009, 11:19 PM
#1055
You'll Never Walk Alone
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I've always kinda liked Wiki's definition of AWD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-wh...4WD_versus_AWD
Seriously educate yourself, the 1G MDX's primitive drivetrain is not considering by 4WD experts as being a real AWD system. No center differential, it uses multiple wet-plate clutches for engagement and slip. it's virtually the same part-time 4WD on my wife's Pilot, it only works in very low speed applications. The Honda shop manual has a wonderful explanation of it.
The 2G MDX is whole different beast, it's a real full-time AWD system with variable speed torque load vectoring front/rear and left/right.
Please follow your own advise next time you post, thanks!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-wh...4WD_versus_AWD
Seriously educate yourself, the 1G MDX's primitive drivetrain is not considering by 4WD experts as being a real AWD system. No center differential, it uses multiple wet-plate clutches for engagement and slip. it's virtually the same part-time 4WD on my wife's Pilot, it only works in very low speed applications. The Honda shop manual has a wonderful explanation of it.
The 2G MDX is whole different beast, it's a real full-time AWD system with variable speed torque load vectoring front/rear and left/right.
Please follow your own advise next time you post, thanks!
08-25-2009, 04:00 AM
#1056
08-25-2009, 08:48 AM
#1058
AZ Community Team
, yeah (EE) and I also got a little carried away (shocking!).
I should have been more clear in the definition in my original response to the MDX 1G and 2G drivetrains (1G is a automatic part-time 4WD, 2G is a automatic continous/full-time 4WD).I'm guessing that the SH-AWD differential shares alot of design concepts and components across the ZDX, MDX, RDX, RL, and SHAWD TL.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 08-25-2009 at 08:51 AM.
08-25-2009, 02:11 PM
#1059
So, the ZDX is Acura's new flagship?
Acura Rethinks Flagship Moniker With ZDX; RL Still Has Place
WardsAuto.com, Aug 21, 2009 8:00 AM
ROCHESTER, MI – American Honda Motor Co. Inc.’s premium Acura brand says the RL sedan still has a place in its lineup, though monthly sales have fallen to a mere 100 units or so. However, executives now view the upcoming ZDX cross/utility vehicle as Acura’s ultimate luxury model, a top official tells Ward’s. “Having a vehicle above (the) TL is a good position for us,” Gary Robinson, assistant manager-Acura product planning, says on the sidelines of a recent media event here. “Obviously, we wish it was more than 135 people that bought (RL) every month, but it’s a great car and we’re happy enough with (it) selling at a very small volume.” RL sales through July tumbled 62.6% to 1,192 from 3,191 year-ago, Ward’s data shows. The car steadily has been losing volume since its sales launch in 2004 as an ’05 model, when Acura targeted 20,000 annual deliveries. An extensive refresh last year was designed to lift sales but had little effect. Still, the RL retains its buyer loyalty, Robinson says. With tooling costs mostly paid, keeping the car in the Acura lineup is financially sustainable. However, he does not say when a new RL is expected to arrive.
Recent comments by new Honda Motor Co. Ltd. CEO Takanobu Ito suggest Acura customers hoping for a competitor to BMW AG’s fullsize 7-Series sedan will have to keep waiting, as a rear-wheel-drive platform and V-8 engine no longer are part of the auto maker’s plans. While most car buyers and industry watchers consider large sedans as a brand’s superlative model, Acura is trying to change that perception with the upcoming ZDX. The new 5-passenger CUV, which the auto maker is calling a “sport coupe,” is being billed as the brand’s most-luxurious, technology-laden model ever. The all-new vehicle, which hits the U.S. market this winter, will get hand-stitched detailing on its leather-covered dashboard, door panels and center console. Light-emitting diodes will be used extensively in the cabin, and the “longest glass roof in the industry” will have dual automatic sunshades. A 10-way power driver’s seat and 8-way power passenger seat are standard, as is a power tailgate and dual-zone, dual-mode automatic climate control. Powering the ZDX will be Acura’s 3.7L V-6, already in the MDX CUV, making 300 hp and 270 lb.-ft. (366 Nm) of torque and mated to a 6-speed automatic transmission.
The ZDX also gets standard Acura’s Super-Handling All-Wheel-Drive. A new technology dubbed IDS, for Integrated Dynamics System, will be optional. IDS combines an active damper system, similar to that seen in the MDX, with speed-sensitive steering, allowing the driver to dial in preferred levels of sport or comfort, Acura says. Despite the company’s assertion the ZDX will attract “an entirely new luxury customer to the Acura brand,” Robinson says the CUV likely will cull some customers who tire of the larger 7-seat MDX.
The ZDX presents them with the opportunity to have “something different in their garage,” he says. “There’s also going to be other people for whom it’s just a different type of vehicle…and they’re looking for something like that.” Despite some negative online chatter about the unorthodox coupe/wagon/SUV appearance of the ZDX, Robinson says Acura is confident it captured the right design and is proud of the vehicle’s provocative nature. “We tried to do something that was different and stylish and would be an exercise in design and styling and something new for us,” he says. “(The ZDX) is not meant to be a high-volume vehicle, so it’s fine if not everybody likes it.” Robinson says, so far, he hasn’t received any negative feedback. “I might be fooling myself,” he admits. “I’ve been pleasantly surprised at how positive (the feedback) is.” Acura says the ZDX, which is the first model to come out of the brand’s Torrance, CA, design studio from start to finish, will be priced between the MDX and RL. For ’10, the MDX begins at $40,990, while the RL starts at $46,830.
WardsAuto.com, Aug 21, 2009 8:00 AM
ROCHESTER, MI – American Honda Motor Co. Inc.’s premium Acura brand says the RL sedan still has a place in its lineup, though monthly sales have fallen to a mere 100 units or so. However, executives now view the upcoming ZDX cross/utility vehicle as Acura’s ultimate luxury model, a top official tells Ward’s. “Having a vehicle above (the) TL is a good position for us,” Gary Robinson, assistant manager-Acura product planning, says on the sidelines of a recent media event here. “Obviously, we wish it was more than 135 people that bought (RL) every month, but it’s a great car and we’re happy enough with (it) selling at a very small volume.” RL sales through July tumbled 62.6% to 1,192 from 3,191 year-ago, Ward’s data shows. The car steadily has been losing volume since its sales launch in 2004 as an ’05 model, when Acura targeted 20,000 annual deliveries. An extensive refresh last year was designed to lift sales but had little effect. Still, the RL retains its buyer loyalty, Robinson says. With tooling costs mostly paid, keeping the car in the Acura lineup is financially sustainable. However, he does not say when a new RL is expected to arrive.
Recent comments by new Honda Motor Co. Ltd. CEO Takanobu Ito suggest Acura customers hoping for a competitor to BMW AG’s fullsize 7-Series sedan will have to keep waiting, as a rear-wheel-drive platform and V-8 engine no longer are part of the auto maker’s plans. While most car buyers and industry watchers consider large sedans as a brand’s superlative model, Acura is trying to change that perception with the upcoming ZDX. The new 5-passenger CUV, which the auto maker is calling a “sport coupe,” is being billed as the brand’s most-luxurious, technology-laden model ever. The all-new vehicle, which hits the U.S. market this winter, will get hand-stitched detailing on its leather-covered dashboard, door panels and center console. Light-emitting diodes will be used extensively in the cabin, and the “longest glass roof in the industry” will have dual automatic sunshades. A 10-way power driver’s seat and 8-way power passenger seat are standard, as is a power tailgate and dual-zone, dual-mode automatic climate control. Powering the ZDX will be Acura’s 3.7L V-6, already in the MDX CUV, making 300 hp and 270 lb.-ft. (366 Nm) of torque and mated to a 6-speed automatic transmission.
The ZDX also gets standard Acura’s Super-Handling All-Wheel-Drive. A new technology dubbed IDS, for Integrated Dynamics System, will be optional. IDS combines an active damper system, similar to that seen in the MDX, with speed-sensitive steering, allowing the driver to dial in preferred levels of sport or comfort, Acura says. Despite the company’s assertion the ZDX will attract “an entirely new luxury customer to the Acura brand,” Robinson says the CUV likely will cull some customers who tire of the larger 7-seat MDX.
The ZDX presents them with the opportunity to have “something different in their garage,” he says. “There’s also going to be other people for whom it’s just a different type of vehicle…and they’re looking for something like that.” Despite some negative online chatter about the unorthodox coupe/wagon/SUV appearance of the ZDX, Robinson says Acura is confident it captured the right design and is proud of the vehicle’s provocative nature. “We tried to do something that was different and stylish and would be an exercise in design and styling and something new for us,” he says. “(The ZDX) is not meant to be a high-volume vehicle, so it’s fine if not everybody likes it.” Robinson says, so far, he hasn’t received any negative feedback. “I might be fooling myself,” he admits. “I’ve been pleasantly surprised at how positive (the feedback) is.” Acura says the ZDX, which is the first model to come out of the brand’s Torrance, CA, design studio from start to finish, will be priced between the MDX and RL. For ’10, the MDX begins at $40,990, while the RL starts at $46,830.
08-25-2009, 02:18 PM
#1060
AZ Community Team
08-25-2009, 02:34 PM
#1061
Suzuka Master
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Robinson says, so far, he hasn’t received any negative feedback.
The ZDX actually sounds like it could be a tier-1 product and has some ingredients that could make it great, but the 2 things I find lacking are drivetrain (at least turbocharge the V6 if you're not gonna give us a v8) and styling...if they just made a coupe or sedan with funky styling, rather than a not-quite-SUV/Coupe/Sedan/Hatch AMC Eagle looking thing, this could be a hit.
08-25-2009, 05:36 PM
#1062
Race Director
08-25-2009, 06:17 PM
#1063
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
Robinson says, so far, he hasn’t received any negative feedback. “I might be fooling myself,” he admits. “I’ve been pleasantly surprised at how positive (the feedback) is.”
...(out of one side of his mouth).Pleasantly "surprised" at the positive feedback?!?
...(out of the other side of his mouth).
Either you came out of the gate knowingly with a "sketchy at best product"....or you are smoking some good stuff.
ummmmmm........yea. Puff-puff....give-give.... Acura.
08-25-2009, 09:25 PM
#1064
Honda Fanboy
No negative feedback...eh? ...(out of one side of his mouth).
Pleasantly "surprised" at the positive feedback?!?
...(out of the other side of his mouth).
Either you came out of the gate knowingly with a "sketchy at best product"....or you are smoking some good stuff.
ummmmmm........yea. Puff-puff....give-give.... Acura.
...(out of one side of his mouth).Pleasantly "surprised" at the positive feedback?!?
...(out of the other side of his mouth).
Either you came out of the gate knowingly with a "sketchy at best product"....or you are smoking some good stuff.
ummmmmm........yea. Puff-puff....give-give.... Acura.
08-25-2009, 09:32 PM
#1065
08-26-2009, 12:59 AM
#1066
You'll Never Walk Alone
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, yeah (EE) and I also got a little carried away (shocking!). I should have been more clear in the definition in my original response to the MDX 1G and 2G drivetrains (1G is a automatic part-time 4WD, 2G is a automatic continous/full-time 4WD).I'm guessing that the SH-AWD differential shares alot of design concepts and components across the ZDX, MDX, RDX, RL, and SHAWD TL.
From my understanding, the RL has the most sophisticated setup of them all. I think Colin can explain this much better.
08-26-2009, 08:44 AM
#1067
Go Big Blue!
^^ The SHAWD in the RL was the first generation and it has been improved upon now with the new TL (and even the MDX). I haven't read about any leaps forward for the SHAWD in the ZDX, but I am expecting some improvements in the specs
08-26-2009, 12:15 PM
#1068
The RLs system is more advanced than the newer systems. The differential uses a planetary gearset to allow up to (if I recall correctly) up to 4.7% overspeed for the outside rear tire. All the newer systems use a fixed ratio of 1.7% overspeed. Also remember that the RL uses a carbon fiber driveshaft.
08-26-2009, 12:24 PM
#1069
Go Big Blue!
Funny I remember reading that the later designs could direct more torque to the back outside wheel than the original RL. Personally speaking, I feel the MDX SHAWD works better than my RL, but of course that's not scientific or based on any objective data.
08-26-2009, 12:30 PM
#1070
Go Big Blue!
Internet is a wonderful thing. Wikipedia has some info (with valid references) as follows:
The Acceleration Device allows the rear wheels to be variably overdriven with respect to the speed of the front wheels up to 5.7%.<SUP id=cite_ref-categories4_12-2 class=reference>[13]</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-categories5_15-1 class=reference>[16]</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-categories6_16-1 class=reference>[17]</SUP> The Acceleration Device in the Acura RL is positioned in front of the rear differential. During normal steady state driving, the Acceleration Device input shaft (from the engine) and output shaft (to the rear differential) spin at almost equal speeds. In a cornering situation, the output shaft spins up to 5.7% faster than the input shaft, effectively speeding up the rear wheels. The electromagnetic clutch packs, based on sensor inputs, will vary the torque sent to the rear differential from side to side providing constant and dynamic balancing of the car handling characteristics.<SUP id=cite_ref-categories4_12-3 class=reference>[13]</SUP>
The SH-AWD configuration with no acceleration device is simpler and overdrives the rear wheels at a constant 1.7% with respect to the speed of the front wheels<SUP id=cite_ref-categories3_11-3 class=reference>[12]</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-categories5_15-2 class=reference>[16]</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-categories6_16-2 class=reference>[17]</SUP>.
The Acceleration Device was first introduced in the flagship Acura RL sedan, and continues in the MMC Acura RL sedan. This more complex configuration appears to be unique among the SH-AWD equipped Acuras. This more complex RL configuration could be considered an exclusive flagship vehicle feature, and not specified for vehicles with lower price points.
The later SH-AWD configuration without the Acceleration Device could just be a simpler and less sophisticated version due to vehicle dynamics and price points, or it could represent a more refined, less complex and inherently more reliable, new standard SH-AWD configuration. The rationale for the two distinct configurations has not been publicized by Acura.
The Acceleration Device allows the rear wheels to be variably overdriven with respect to the speed of the front wheels up to 5.7%.<SUP id=cite_ref-categories4_12-2 class=reference>[13]</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-categories5_15-1 class=reference>[16]</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-categories6_16-1 class=reference>[17]</SUP> The Acceleration Device in the Acura RL is positioned in front of the rear differential. During normal steady state driving, the Acceleration Device input shaft (from the engine) and output shaft (to the rear differential) spin at almost equal speeds. In a cornering situation, the output shaft spins up to 5.7% faster than the input shaft, effectively speeding up the rear wheels. The electromagnetic clutch packs, based on sensor inputs, will vary the torque sent to the rear differential from side to side providing constant and dynamic balancing of the car handling characteristics.<SUP id=cite_ref-categories4_12-3 class=reference>[13]</SUP>
The SH-AWD configuration with no acceleration device is simpler and overdrives the rear wheels at a constant 1.7% with respect to the speed of the front wheels<SUP id=cite_ref-categories3_11-3 class=reference>[12]</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-categories5_15-2 class=reference>[16]</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-categories6_16-2 class=reference>[17]</SUP>.
The Acceleration Device was first introduced in the flagship Acura RL sedan, and continues in the MMC Acura RL sedan. This more complex configuration appears to be unique among the SH-AWD equipped Acuras. This more complex RL configuration could be considered an exclusive flagship vehicle feature, and not specified for vehicles with lower price points.
The later SH-AWD configuration without the Acceleration Device could just be a simpler and less sophisticated version due to vehicle dynamics and price points, or it could represent a more refined, less complex and inherently more reliable, new standard SH-AWD configuration. The rationale for the two distinct configurations has not been publicized by Acura.
08-26-2009, 01:39 PM
#1071
The article is correct. Acura does not talk much about the differences between the SH systems. Just as they not distinguish between 3 lobe, twin cam VTEC, intake only VTEC or VTEC-E in most literature.
One thing they don't mention is that in early applications, the AWD would only vector in second gear and up. In later years they changed to programing to allow operation in first gear. (on a side note, I have a hard time saying 'vector' with a straight face. All I can think if is "what's your Vector Victor?" "roger, Roger" "over Oveur")
08-26-2009, 01:45 PM
#1072
Go Big Blue!
Now that you mention it, I do remember reading (or discussing) a while back about the addition of the torque distribution being added to 1st gear. Not sure if that was retro added to the RL's system or only the newer systems. Clearly, as you pointed out, the RL system is unique to the rest of the Acura lineup.
It would be nice if the system worked without your foot on the gas. Someones new awd system does that. Wanna say it's BMW. I know, I know, I throw out these comments without being able to substantiate it. I'm bad like that. I read so much and recall the info but not the sources.
It would be nice if the system worked without your foot on the gas. Someones new awd system does that. Wanna say it's BMW. I know, I know, I throw out these comments without being able to substantiate it. I'm bad like that. I read so much and recall the info but not the sources.
08-26-2009, 08:40 PM
#1073
Senior Moderator
08-28-2009, 01:29 PM
#1074
Pro
Does it really make any difference what's Acura's flagship? actually calling it the flagship will just lead to really low sales.
Honda and Acura are simply good at building less expensive cars, but lousy at high end models. lately it also seems that they are better with CUVs than with their cars, which is strange considering their past.
The ZDX has nothing substantially new compared to the revised MDX, except for the unproven design. that's hardly flagship material.
Honda and Acura are simply good at building less expensive cars, but lousy at high end models. lately it also seems that they are better with CUVs than with their cars, which is strange considering their past.
The ZDX has nothing substantially new compared to the revised MDX, except for the unproven design. that's hardly flagship material.
08-28-2009, 02:31 PM
#1075
Three Wheelin'
Calling the ZDX a flagship or not calling it a flagship won't make a difference in sales, because the potential buyers of this vehicle don't care. It will be a niche product, an alternative to the MDX, and that's all.
08-28-2009, 05:55 PM
#1076
Sigh. So many people hung up on labels... tier 1....flagship..... bah. The car will sell (or not sell) for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with the label.
09-03-2009, 07:09 PM
#1078
What planet do the manufacturers get these crossover designers from? I saw an X6 on the highway recently and the rear is hideous. On the other hand, the front of the FX line is just mad fugly. I am not a fan of these crossovers, but Acura's got a chance here to knock out a sick-looking x-over with a decent powertrain, killer tech and above all, great price.
I could put my money on the killer tech. Not sure about great price anymore - Acura is starting to FORCE upper-tier pricing. For looks and powertrain? Dunno...no confidence...there's that beak again.
I could put my money on the killer tech. Not sure about great price anymore - Acura is starting to FORCE upper-tier pricing. For looks and powertrain? Dunno...no confidence...there's that beak again.
09-04-2009, 07:37 PM
#1079
Team Owner
IMO. the most exciting car that both Acura andHonda offer right now is Civic Si that came out in 2006.
Everything else is either
:thumbsdow
at least in year 2000 my CL-S had Navi that no other 30k cars had and 17" wheels that were considered HUGE in 2000 and HIDs that were considered to be an ultra luxury and 5 speed automatic
Everything else is either
:thumbsdowat least in year 2000 my CL-S had Navi that no other 30k cars had and 17" wheels that were considered HUGE in 2000 and HIDs that were considered to be an ultra luxury and 5 speed automatic
09-04-2009, 08:03 PM
#1080
6G TLX-S
However, it is still far away from the 0/100 possible front/rear power split of the rear-biased Infiniti AWD system.