alphason'sac

Well, I will only place my opinion as an enthusiast on an enthusiast's site. It does not matter when the idea for this vehicle came out, it was never a good idea. I do not see how ACURA was ever in a position to offer such a niche vehicle. As it has been pointed out before, this car does not even offer any significant technical developments or improvements that we could even be excited about trickling down to other models. They introduced this new 6 speed transmission when they will probably be one of the only "luxury" brands in the next year or so that still has a transmission with that many ratios. The only bright spot in the entire line up right now is the TSX which is damning with the faintest praise I can muster.

biker

Another Acura model thread turning into an Acura bashing thread.

Biker, who is no Acura fanboy but could do without the constant bashing.

mrdeeno

When Acura makes a STUPID decision, and someone points out who stupid it is, that's far from bashing.

How many people here actually think the ZDX is a good idea? So everyone who thinks it was a bad idea and posts saying so is now bashing? Sorry, but if Acura's gonna give people ammo to criticize them, then they will be criticized.

SpicyMikey

How can we conclude it's a bad idea if we haven't even seen one in person or driven one? As the owner of an MDX, I can easily see this as a replacement to that if it drives better. I like my MDX for what it is -- a people and stuff hauler. But it's a bit underpowered and the transmission, like my 07 RL, feels primative at best compared to the X5's and X6's I've test driven recently. Since my kids are almost all in their own cars now, this type of vehicle could be a good second car as I downshift my life a bit. It will all come down to how it handles and delivers power. I must admit I'm getting tired of the less-than-silky-smooth honda tranny. It's 2009 and it's getting close to unacceptable at this point. I always so that as a compromise for great tech and price value, but if this next gen 6AT addresses my one main complaint, I'll declare Acura less of a compromise and headed in the right direction.

mrdeeno

We can very well conclude that it's a bad idea, because it's been announced and it's gonna be released. The concept of Acura designing and releasing this car is the mistake. The car itself can be great, but that's not the point. Same with the RL. by itself, it's a good car, but the concept of where and how it fit into its particular segment was a mistake.

The ZDX is a niche/image car and should be released by a company that has developed a strong upscale image, not by one that most people consider only a "near luxury" brand.

SpicyMikey

I can get behind that statement. There are several things I would have done first if I was growing the Acura lineup. A TSX coupe? Move the S2000 over to Acura? A next gen RL to better fit the category? We can go on. Any of those would have probably been a better next step.

But the drum beating in this thread seemed to go beyond that, making the ZDX out to be a total train wreck in design, concept, execution, timing, etc. that will further hurt the brand. It will no doubt be a low volume niche product. It also probably won't help advance the Acura brand much. But will it hurt them? For that I think we're going too far, at least at this point.

alphason'sac

Well said sir!

SSFTSX

Problem is we are not living in 90s where Acura/Honda has time to experiment.

Acura still hasnt created 5 seater RX equal. that can match its fuel economy/performance/refinement/utility in $40K price range. Second in that line is Audi Q5.

MDX is segment is getting crowded with upcoming German diesels/hybrids along with new Infiniti in 7 seater class. It price is getting closer to $50K where new V8 GX is coming up. (much more performace than MDX/ZDX with ride height control/utility).
MDX sales will not go back to 4K a month for ever.

Now they introduce this ZDX whose fuel economy/price/less utility is going to more rich people. who would rather not drive an acura which is neither a proper coupe nor SUV with less desirable performance.
competition is just getting better and market size is getting smaller. how long this brand can survive with such strategy.

mrdeeno

There's an interesting thought though...it may not hurt the brand and will probably sell a couple, but "not hurting" sometimes just isn't good enough, and for Acura I don't think "not hurting" is good enough.

Like Mokos said before, even with Acura's mistake, they aren't going anywhere. You can look at that 2 different ways...Acura's gonna be around for awhile, but they aren't moving forward either. You have competition from the established makes such as BMW and MB, but then you have Infiniti improving their image at a rate that's left Acura in the dust. Then you have Hyundai nipping from beneath. "Not going anywhere" is a bad thing when your tagline is "Advance".

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I don't think we will see the brand moving anywhere until 2012 and beyond. I just don't see how a brand can announce its tier-1 goal in 2007 and become a tier-1 brand in 2009. Nothing tier-1 has even been developed yet. I doubt we will see any until at least 2012. Until then, I will just wait...as a recent graduate, I don't have the money to buy any luxury vehicle anyways, so I can afford to wait a bit

Costco

It just makes Acura look bad when you hear a top Acura representative say "the NSX successor is coming!" then a few months later you hear them saying that they postponed the development. Of course its silly to continue with it in these conditions, but again people make excuses, then turn around and applaud Acura for being smart and proactive for foreseeing the future when they don't have a V8 to show. They shouldn't have announced it at all to begin with, and the same goes for their "Tier-1" aspirations. It takes a long time and a lot of effort to build brand cachet.

FFS, Hyundai didn't announce crap.... what they did do was they boldly showed a commercial of the Hyundai Genesis in the Super Bowl. All of the non-car enthusiasts in the room were taken aback and were like, "wow, that's a Hyundai?" Actions speak louder than words.... its nice to actually see a real product than hearing about vaporware. The same Hyundai that brought you the Pony and Excel not all that long ago is now leapfrogging Acura with a powerful V8 developed in house, mated to a 6-speed transmission.

As with anything, missteps can't be pinned on any single person or group of people. But the only people (for the most part) that pay attention to car news are actual car enthusiasts. And car enthusiasts by nature are a highly critical breed. We want to see progress and results, not announcements and pixie dust and reasons why the NSX successor isn't here yet. Sure its more logical to not see an NSX successor, but again, we're car enthusiasts - we display our passion with emotion. If we all went with logic we'd all be in Corollas because of how economical and reliable they are.

Sadly you will be sorely disappointed if you think the ZDX with its new 6AT will shift any different from your RL/MDX. It stems from the stubborn fact that Honda always has and continues to produce its own automatic transmissions. This wouldn't normally be a problem but they are just clunky by design, whether they have 10,000 miles on them or 200,000 miles on them. I've talked to several technicians who have worked in tranny shops, some with decades of experience and they share the same sentiment.

Yeah, you may notice improved fuel economy and performance due to more tightly spaced gear ratios. But whether it's a Civic or a ZDX, it will still have that slight bump each time you shift. Hell, come to think of it our Civic with 160,000 miles shifts smoother than our TL with 60,000.

Having driven an automatic E90 328i I'll agree with you though. The transmission was very responsive and stayed in a lower gear when I was driving briskly. It only got better when I put it in sport mode.

SpicyMikey

Well, I wouldn't bet against you on that statement. But, none the less, I don't think we can't conclude that yet. We have no idea what they've done with this transmission besides add a 6th gear. I'll wait to see.

Legend2TL

You only seem to see the bad from Acura and the good from the others. The M outsells the RL by a ratio of ~3 to 1, but you fail to neglect that the MDX outsells the QX56 by a ratio of ~5 to 1. Yet to you, Acura just keeps making mistakes and Infiniti is improving their image. It's OK to be objective with Acura's mistakes but they've also made some good decisions.

When you consistently say the Acura sky is falling you're just biased, nothing more or less.

IMO, Acura is not moving to tier-1 with the current lineup. Despite some a decent RL, they've not broken into the mid-line luxury stance yet. It also has nothing to do with dropping the Legend name, Acura should have used letter/number nomenclature from the begining (that was their only mistake with names).

In terms of vision what Acura needs now is a Peter Schutz-like leader. Wiki has decent bio on him

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Schutz

When he took over Porsche in 1981, Porsche was in serious trouble as a automaker. The 924/928 front engine models were not selling well, the 911was languishing in development. Cash flow was poor, the US dealerships were raising hell over quality and cost. In short despite all the technical abilities of Porsche their management was a wreck by anyone with knowledge of the auto business.

Then Dr. Ferry Porsche selects a Jewish German to be it's CEO who has never even riden in a Porsche let alone driven one in his whole life. And to make matters worst, his business background was tractors/trucking/diesel engines. He had no auto experience what so ever. I can only imagine what a few of the folks on this thread would say if Acura/Honda did the same....

Then the following happening

• Upon reviewing sales of 924, Schutz directed the engineering branch to cut the 928 V8 in half and make it a 2.5L straight four and replace the misrable Audi 100LS derived four. Then flare out the fenders, make some minor interior changes. Call the new model a 944, instant sales success. A Turbo model followed up and eventually four valve heads.
• He's astonished there is no 4-valve engine program for production cars, he put into motion a engineering program to get 4 valve heads into the 928 motor by 1985
• He works with marketing and sales to evolve the 911 since when he came onboard it's end of life was already projected despite what dealerships and enthusiasts wanted. A 3.2L motor was started, and various minor tweaks were done to the chassis. In addition a convertible model was introduced despite objections from engineering although sales/marketing were thrilled.
• He promoted the 956 racing program to great international racing success.
• He tried unsuccessfully to get a North American corporate alliance to align all the dealers. The US dealerships revolted and with the sudden drop in sales , he was fired.
• Sad ending for someone who lead the company in 6 years to ~2X it's sales numbers.

One of great things of Schutz is he freely discusses his mistakes along with his accomplishments. His book (a friend with two 928's has a copy) is OK for a auto business book but is more a management leadership. He openly discusses what he did well and what didn't go so well. He's bottom line stance is you have to keep moving and make decisions even if there is incomplete information at the time of the decision.

The morale of this tale is that sometimes you need a outsider who doesn't have preconceived notions of a company to lead it in the right direction. Perhaps that would do Acura well now.

FWIW, years after his termination Ferry Porsche communcated to Schutz that the company would not be where it was then (mid-90's) if not for him. For a true outsider he made a big impact to how Porsche reinvented itself. Even though Scutz didn't get along with Piëch, he and Ferry respected each other even after he was fired.

Oh and back to topic of thread, to declare the ZDX a Acura mistake before the first production unit is even sold is a mistake.

Legend2TL

FWIW, Schutz' book worth a read if it's in your library

http://www.amazon.com/Driving-Force-.../dp/0977128903

Legend2TL

Can't resist one last Peter Schutz story!

When in development of the 944 2.5L straight 4 motor (basically a 928 V8 cut in half), the problem of vibration arose due to the large inline four. In order to get the NVH down to acceptable levels, Porsche knew they would need a balance shaft. Unfortunately Mitsubishi had the international patent on 2-bearing balance shafts for engines. Porsche engineers were planning to use a 3-bearing unit since they would not have to pay royalties and lost pride to using a Japanese design concept. However the 3 bearing had more friction losses, so Schutz told the Porsche engineering staff to suck up their pride and get a licensing contract in place with the Mitsubishi.

Legend2TL

as always a nice honest insider view from Colin.

In the Wall Street Journal article story on the NSX years ago, the NSX plant was only made for it's production and nothing else. At the time it was making only 5 NSX/day despite it's capacity for 25/day.

To the Honda board and senior staff, the NSX was a thorny subject matter. It was supposed to make money but the marketing folks in the US badly underestimated the name prestige of Corvette/Porsche/Ferrary no matter how well the NSX performed. The old man (Honda) loved the car and it's image but the board of directors saw the money lossing operation and were uncertain if it did much to improve dealership draw yet they had no problem with the F1 program (since that was extremely successful).

One of it's best complements to me was when Mario Andretti drove a bunch of exotic cars in a Road and Track comparison test in the 90's (at Willow Springs?). At the time Mario had no Honda sponsorship or connections, yet of all the exotics the best he prefered the NSX to the rest from Porsche, Ferrari,...

SSFTSX

how is starting $60K AWD QX56 V8 comparable to $40K starting MDX V6. both caters to different crowd. problem with QX56 it is on truck platform. It is not as luxury as LX570/GL550. some of which has airsuspension. and they are going to rectify it next generation.
M35/45 is same price range of RL. Infniti range vehicles in higher priced point.

Legend2TL

Get your facts straight, the QX56 starts at $56K and the MDX $41K. You make it out to being 50% more when in truth it's only 36% more!
http://www.infinitiusa.com/qx/models-pricing/

The QX56 is larger but it's the closest in functionality to a MDX. A neighbor has a QX56, very nice inside. But it's still outsold by the MDX by a large margin.

dom

Now imagine if every other auto maker took the same approach to making sports cars. We'd be without pretty much all of them. I can understand this approach to the NSX but a new generation of the S2000 should have been made. There's no excuse for it.

And I seriously doubt much cross shopping is done between the MDX and QX56. But there is a huge gap in Infiniti's lineup as far as SUV's go.

mrdeeno

Some people should really think before they post.

Why don't we discuss BMW's mistakes? Or Lexus's mistakes while we're at it? Hell, let's discuss Hyundai's mistakes as well.

This is an ACURA forum. Why should I bring up Infiniti's, BMW's, Lexus's, Hyundai's, or any other company's mistakes when we are discussing ACURA?

Duh.

SSFTSX

Is it AWD? Remember always compare apples to apples.

mrdeeno

Seriously, dude, you need to start thinking before you post.

I guess the TL is a complete failure when compared to the toyota camry since the camry outsells it by such a large margin and they are very similar "functionally".

Point being is that the QX is in a different class than the MDX. They may seat the same number of peopple, but are in DIFFERENT CLASSES. Further, you want to discuss Infiniti's mistakes? Start a thread for it, 'cuz this thread already has a topic.

SpicyMikey

Although slightly Off Topic, we have to agree the MDX and QX are not really in the same segment being cross shopped. QX is a big lumbering full size truck based SUV for hauling boats, etc. and is part of a smaller market. MDX is more of a suburban car based SUV for picking up the kids at dance class. I agree with mrdeeno. We can't compare sales numbers across segments (or even sub-segments)

Legend2TL

A neighbor on another street who bought the QX56 shopped the MDX, and LX570. She didn't really care too much among the three, here big concern was getting children in/out. Her husband wanted towing capability (if they ever needed it) so they got the QX. Only one example, I know.

Let's be honest, do many of these luxury SUV's ever use their off-roading much? It's probably one of the reasons Acura didn't put much off-road capability into the MDX but focused more on the road aspects (SH-AWD on 2G).

The S2000 is a different story over the NSX, perhaps Colin can add to it.

AFAIK, the S2000 has always been profitable with respect to recuring the design/development cost. It had it's own engine/chassis/gearbox/suspension so there's very little parts-bin engineering. There was alot of pressure from corporate as I thought dealers originally wanted a Prelude replacement. The sportier two door Accord was then the sorta-Prelude replacement but not really IMO.

In the end it brought a whole new class of enthusiasts to Honda, but sadly Honda let it go away like the Prelude and NSX.

Legend2TL

... and this coming from you who believe most think dropping the Legend name was a bad idea and you're telling me to think...

Legend2TL

2G MDX is AWD, 1G MDX is not.

Legend2TL

because you brought Infiniti up?

Read your threads, and apply your rules to yourself the same as you apply to others.

CLtotheTL32

iTrader: (3)

Uhhhhhhh I don't really know what to say. A part of me likes it but a part of me doesn't. I guess I like it but I would never buy it

mrdeeno

Since when did the 1G MDX not have AWD? or is there another 1G you're talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acura_MDX

Like I said, think before you post.

mrdeeno

infiniti was brought up by colin, and I responded in context and returned back to the topic of ACURA. Why should I bring up Infiniti's other mistakes in the context of Acura? What does the MDX or QX56 have to do with anything we've discussed? What does any other brand's mistakes have to do with discussing Acura? Why don't we bring up quantum physics while we're at it.

Jeez, quit being dense and just move on since you're making a fool of yourself.

Legend2TL

Ummm because you made a fool of yourself on post #979...

Legend2TL

I've always kinda liked Wiki's definition of AWD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-wh...4WD_versus_AWD

Seriously educate yourself, the 1G MDX's primitive drivetrain is not considering by 4WD experts as being a real AWD system. No center differential, it uses multiple wet-plate clutches for engagement and slip. it's virtually the same part-time 4WD on my wife's Pilot, it only works in very low speed applications. The Honda shop manual has a wonderful explanation of it.

The 2G MDX is whole different beast, it's a real full-time AWD system with variable speed torque load vectoring front/rear and left/right.

Please follow your own advise next time you post, thanks!

mrdeeno

I'm just going to ignore Legend2TL's posts...since he seems hell bent on making an ass of himself rather than adding anything constructive to this thread.

So back on topic...I guess this ZDX thing has been a hit since it's been announced, eh?

dom

Primitive or not...its still AWD and heavily marketed as AWD.

mrdeeno

Again, this thread is about Acura and the ZDX, and we got into discussing Acura's mistakes. My post #979 was about ACURA. So again, why should I bring up Infiniti's mistakes, or any other brands mistakes? you never answered.


The 1G MDX was AWD...simple as that. You want to get technical about it just to make yourself look "educated", go right ahead. But simple fact is that the 1G MDX had AWD.

This has gone off topic far enough. Like Colin and I agreed, our opinions differ, that's that. You don't seem to be mature enough to come to the same conclusion though and seem hell bent on pushing your opinion on me. Sorry, no more responses to your idiotic off topic posts about shiit that has no context to the discussion.

If you're too dense to understand, do everyone a favor here and just ignore my posts.

SpicyMikey

Pissing match in full swing. Let's step away from the ledge guys. Not helping the thread anymore

mrdeeno

Word. that's why he should ignore my posts from now on, like I'm going to ignore his, no matter how idiotic they are (seriously, comparing an MDX to a QX56?)

Legend2TL

1G MDX is like the Pilot and part-time 4WD, simple as that. I do agree to ignore your idiotic posts though.

Legend2TL

Agreed, back to post I was at a Norris Acura on Saturday getting a wheelweight replaced. One of the sales folks drove a pre-production ZDX, but he didn't know when customer ZDX's would arrive.

SSFTSX

Now we have new definition of AWD systems. Full time/part time/semi full time. Infact newer versions are more in semi full time category.
but you cannot ignore the fact than any 4WD system add cost/weight to the vehicle. that reduce its performance/fuel economy.