Black Tire

TL = Fail
ZDX = Fail some more

Legend2TL

Ahhh but there's a very important difference. Porsche at the time was a highly respected sportscar manufacturer (also a design contractor but that's another very long story).

When they considered the Cayenne they were moving into the SUV market. Besides Lamborghini making a SUV in the 80's, no pure sportscar manufacturer had ever ventured into the SUV space.

Porsche took a tremendous gamble on the Cayenne. Sure they would share some of the development and operations cost with VW. But the gamble was big, remember all the Porsche jokes, heck even Ferrari's Montezemolo joked about Ferrari never making a SUV.

At the end of the day due to the tremendous demand Porsche had to get more manufacturing time at the factory where Cayenne's and the Touareg
s are manufactured. The Touareg needed less time due to lack of it's sales. Never have seen a official number but a rumor (can't remember where I saw it) had the Cayenne selling ~2X the original sales projection.

Moog-Type-S

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head.

mrdeeno

Right, but neither BMW or Porsche had a history of making piss poor decisions in the recent past, and they also have much better prestige and image to fall back upon if their ventures failed. I'm sure their analysts and MBA's considered this when they made those decisions. Like I said earlier, if Acura had a better image and a recent history (at least 5 years) of not making piss poor decisions, then the ZDX would make more sense.

But Acura has made many piss poor decisions in the recent past, even up to the current generation of models and their ugly ass beaks, and they don't have any history, prestige, or image to fall upon or to use to logically explain WTF they are doing.

Legend2TL

Last year, the RL sold over 4,517 in the US. Probably not what Honda/Acura wanted but not a disaster by any means.

mrdeeno

Is this a tongue in cheek comment?

compared to the competition, this is not a disaster...it's a phucken greek tragedy! For comparison, BMW sells around that many or only slightly less 5-series in a MONTH!

Moog-Type-S

Those are miserable numbers for a "flagship"....you know it, Honda knows it...don't try to sugarcoat it.

The current RL has been lackluster since day one.

LuvMyTSX

Even worse, at the rate the RL is going this year, they will probably only sell about half of what they did last year. That's really, really bad. It's unfortunate, but it's reality.

Colin

The RL continues to be an odd bird. Those that own them tend to love them. Acura isn't making too many so it becomes a bit of a 'self fulfilling prophesy' if you only make 5000 that you'll only sell 5000. They're basically asking us how many we want in the few (one?) production run they are planning.

SpicyMikey

I know you were being funny, but realistically I see the ZDX being a real option for people old enough not to need to haul kids, but young enough that they still do stuff on the weekends. it's not a kid car. it's not a seniors car. That's my thinking anyway

SpicyMikey

Agree 100%. You really can't look at the RL numbers to gauge interest. They just aren't making them, marketing them, displaying them, or trying to sell them in hardly any way normal. My local dealer has 1 on the lot alocated to him right now. He went 3 months with none and told me he had to turn away repeat customers that wanted to trade in their RL for a new one. He simply couldn't get one in a timely fashion

SpicyMikey

TL is doing well in terms of sales numbers in it's segment. Don't have the numbers but I saw them posted recently. It's not first in it's price category but hardly a failure.

Ok, that's it for me this hour. Back to work

Legend2TL

Don't remember but I thought the RL's goal was ~10K/year when it came out 2004.

I don't think it's ever been met, but IMO it's not because of the design it's more the marketing/prestige image.

When it came out the RL was 2nd in a mid-level Car and Driver luxury comparison (M45 was first place) ahead of A6, E-class and 530i. Acura's image in the mid-lux market has never been strong, that I agree on.

To me the ultimate disaster in luxury sales is the A8 down to almost double digit monthly US sales. Yeah it's almost twice as much as a RL but 135 per month? (for the Audi fan-boys)

mrdeeno

That's more an indication of damage control for a slow selling model than demand outstripping supply. If the car appealed to more people and could sell thousands a month, they'd have no problem meeting the demand.

Moog-Type-S

I think the RL is a bit of both.....marketing/prestige & design problems.

It looked like a large Accord....it was vanilla...didn't stand out...didn't look high-end.......then the refresh made it look

The engine & transmission are underwhelming compared to the competition....SHAWD is nice...but it's not a must-have feature in the segment.

I think Acura backed off on marketing, because the RL was a sinking ship...on life-support until the next gen. No need to waste $$.

Legend2TL

What I "predict" for the ZDX future is maybe similar sales ratio's of the X5/X3/X6 to the MDX/RDX/ZDX. What's amusing if the X5 outsells the X3 almost 4 to 1. The MDX outsells the RDX almost 5 to 1, I'm not expecting much better for the ZDX.

IMO the small luxury SUV market is dominated by the Lexus RX, and not much interest for the other offerings no matter who makes it.

Colin

Chicken and Egg? What came first? Lack of sales followed by lack of production? Probably, but now lack of production drives lack of sales. We got a total of 2 2009 RLs. There's no answer, I'm just sayin'

Legend2TL

FWIW, here's C&D's test drive on the ZDX

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t_drive_review

cp3117

It would be interesting to see how Acura RL sales compare to Honda Legend sales throughout the world.

The A8 sales are nothing great here in NA but in the rest of the world they are on par with 7 series sales and the S Class in Europe and China.

I agree that marketing is a big issue overlooked by both but Audi has the product.....Acura needs to redesign their flagship first to make it competitive.

neuronbob

Yup. I wish I had kept been able to find a way to keep my RL AND my CTS-V. The RL is the only car I have ever actually missed, having sold it. (Don't take me the wrong way--my V is BIG fun and I love it!) The 2G RL is really one of the best cars I've ever owned.

As for SpicyMikey saying the grille is a non-issue....I guess so, I'm almost ready to put down my pitchfork over the grille, all I want at this point is to improve on the placement and proportion so it looks good, ala TSX.

Back on topic....Car and Driver actually liked the ZDX. Who knew they (or at least the author) were into this kind of car?

Colin

Thank you. I am only trying to offer additional insight into things that some don't seem understand. Legend2TL has offered great firsthand info on manufacturing. I think this adds to ALL our knowledge bases - if we care to listen.

SpicyMikey

Goes back to our discussion earlier. Unexplainable on the surface but probably SOME logic behind it somewhere. Maybe they decided to take the production capacity and use it for Accords where they had more opportunity to make money Maybe they truly just decided even 800 a month isn't the best way to utilize their resources.

I'm not saying they could sell 4000 a month, but they could definitely sell more than they are selling now. They just have no inventory. Period. Can't sell what you don't have. Just like the 09 TL's right now. Inventory is dried up for the most part. I will imagine the TL numbers are going to look poor for August but it's a supply problem not a demand problem.

SSFTSX

Honda does not have any great PHD left and there market forcaster way off.
They have been surpassed by Hyundai group in sales revenue. You need certain sales revenue for R&D expenses and bank credit.
They are atleast a decade behind in Diesel technology than the leaders. thats why its sales never took off in EU.
They never created a competitor to Toyota LandCrusier/Nissan Patrol/Range Rover. so Middleast/Africa/CIS high priced market is off. what do you think all these Oil and Mining giants, plutocrates and law enforcement of these
countries are using?

When Nissasn stake was sold to Renault in late 90s. Nissan brand has some technology/catched left and Japanese internal market was twice the current size.
Honda owners/shareholders have choice to make today. Sold the company today to EU auto manufacturer when [b]Honda[\b] brand has some catched left or be part of history in less than 5 years. because at current rate even Chinese/Indian manufacturer will pass them. Remember Tata bought JLR and this techology will seep into economic brands. Volvo is not far away. Similar is Opel. In order to prosper in BRIC markets. u need to tie up with locals.
Either Peugeut/Citroen group or VW group are the most suitable canidates to take over Honda. These two groups have small or no presence in North American market. Europeans have no problem in financing it. as most of OPEC/BRIC money is parked in EU banks not in Japan.They can provide enough financing for next frontier technology. There is no way bankrupt Japan with shrinking population and closed immigrant policies can sustain two independent auto manufacturer Toyota & Honda.
No one should believe in Tier 1 BS as Honda neither has money or technology to sustain itself. Its profits are cost cutting.

Belzebutt

What piss poor decisions exactly? They only made bad decisions if the sales nose-dive. So far I think they're doing ok, even with the new grille that I consider a terrible idea.


That would only work for so long, eventually if these decisions proved so terrible the sales would have shown. But no, the Cayenne double Porsche sales and bangle didn't do anything to stem BMW sales, despite all the predictions from people like me. The car buyer works in mysterious ways. I think the ZDX has a shot, especially since it's not THAT bad, and Acuras are actually a lot nicer once you sit inside one at the dealer vs looking at pictures.

mrdeeno

Wow, so many piss poor decisions to choose from...

1. Eliminating real names and going to alphanumerics to try to get people to recognize "Acura" instead of "Legend". This was their first big mistake.

2. first gen RL, TL, CL.

3. SLX

4. 2nd gen CL

5. AWD V6 RL to compete with V8 RWD competitors.

6. Letting the NSX sit with only minor updates for over a decade.

7. RDX

8. Making a statement that they're focusing on tier 1, and then less than a year later abandoning any efforts to actually become a tier1 brand.

9. Power Plenum Grille


And soon, the next mistake will be the ZDX.

Mokos23

even after all these awful mistakes acura is still here and won't be going anywhere.

mrdeeno

Uh, that kinda sums it up though...Acura won't be going anywhere.

JD23

Why was this such a big mistake? Acura enjoyed its highest sales years after this change, so I don't see how you can prove that this was a mistake.

SSFTSX

Are you about this thing? Acura sales used to have in 13 to 14k region. Now they are in 8 to 9k region. this despite launching two new bread and butter cars TSX/TL at same time. There is no MDX replacement for next 3 years and its sales are less than half of its launch date. RDX is at one third. RL is practically gone. Lexus is sustaining its sales with 3 to 4 year old ES/IS and selling highly priced hybrid RX. there is another addition HS250. even that is as expensive as TL. that despite all the success of Toyota with hybrids.
where will be the growth comes from? Acura has practically zero international presence. how will the Marketing/dealer network support such level. where will be R&D spending come for new V6 hybrid/DSG/Diesel/tubo4/new light weight platform.
This is whats needed for so there so called fuel economy goals.

Colin

From a sales consultant's perspective:

1. The Legend nameplate was only used for 9 years, The RL name the rest of the time. For someone interested, it's not that big a deal. If someone doesn't know the "story" it gives you something to talk about.

2. If you want to know, I had sold over 50 of the first gen RLs. This is far more than I've sold of the second gen. That car may have been the antithesis of a sporty car, but it did what it did well. The first gen TLs were good cars, over priced, but that was the cost of 'made in japan' The CL was a dog. Originally intended to replace the Integra, the plans were changed at the 11th hour when the Integra stayed. This forced the CL to a higher level than it was designed to play in. Blame the dealers for this cause they wanted to keep the Integra.

3. SLX Blame the dealers. They wanted the SUV so Acura did the only thing they could on short notice.

4. The CL has had a star-crossed life huh? Both generations were followed by an Accord coupe that was better looking and less expensive. Still the CL might have chugged along had the G coupe not come out. (I want a coupe in the lineup, but if the choice is another CL or none, I'll take none)

5. The RL was never intended to compete in the marketplace with the V8s, it was intended to compete with the V6 versions of the competition. If you're going to slag 'em, at least get the facts straight. Still, the car has underperformed sales wise (thought everyone who has one loves it)

6. I believe it wasn't ever intended to receive huge updates. It was a hand built specialty car and the only way to recoup the investment in tooling was to NOT change it. In other words, they did it the "Honda" way and made a profit. (the S2000 was the same) You can criticize if you like, but I'd imagine the alternative would be to not make the car at all.

7. I know the mindset was that the car would capture the TSX buyer who wanted more cargo space. They missed the mark. They should have pursued the female CR-V buyer with a quiet V6 and a soft ride. (ie a smaller RX)

BUT lets look at it from Honda's point of view. Let's say it cost 16K to build (in Japan) an RSX that you sell for 18K and has an MSRP of 20K. That's 2,000 profit for the factory. Now, if it costs 22K to build an RDX in Ohio and you sell it to dealers at 30K w/ an MSRP of 34K, there is a lot more profit potential in the RDX. As I noted above, they muffed the execution, but the concept was probably sound. (we'll probably never know)

8. I think you're just plain old wrong on your interpretation of this. IMO there is nothing wrong with making the goal, and I don't believe they have abandoned it.

9. The power plenum seems better implemented on some than others. I don't care for it on the TL, but the TSX is OK and pretty true to the Sports 4 concept. We'll have to wait to see the new MDX RDX and ZDX.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Legend2TL and Colin sure know their stuff!

mrdeeno

Uh, so one needs to know the "story" to see that this was not a mistake? So to most people out there, who don't know the story, this was a mistake. That's reassuring that only a handful of people know the story, but most people consider this a mistake. This is considered the first time Acura lost it's focus, by trying to focus on brand rather than product.


The first and 2nd gen RL were failures in the market compared to its rivals main rivals. Nuff said.


Wait, so dealers are in control of Acura? Haha, that's funny. Dealers, who are in direct contact with customers day in and day out, who see when customers leave for competitors, should have more say in the products, but they don't. I wonder how many dealers wanted a REAL midsize luxury car with at least a V8 to compete with the others in the segment? Whether Acura listened to dealers or not, still a mistake.

Mistake. Nuff said.


The RL competed in the midsize luxury segment. It did not have a V8, which others in this segment DID offer. Further, if you still insist it's intention is to compete with only V6 versions of its competition, saleswise, it is STILL heavily outsold by its 6 cylinder competition.


So their intention was not to make huge updates to their HALO car for over a decade...BIG MISTAKE!!! Whether their intention or not, BIG MISTAKE. Honda way? BIG MISTAKE!!

Nuff said.

BUT lets look at it from Honda's point of view. Let's say it cost 16K to build (in Japan) an RSX that you sell for 18K and has an MSRP of 20K. That's 2,000 profit for the factory. Now, if it costs 22K to build an RDX in Ohio and you sell it to dealers at 30K w/ an MSRP of 34K, there is a lot more profit potential in the RDX. As I noted above, they muffed the execution, but the concept was probably sound. (we'll probably never know)

You didn't read the new guy's statement about focusing on green? You didn't read about the abandonment of V8/V10 and RWD platforms and NSX replacement?


Power plenum has been almost universally panned. Some people are just OK with it, but no one loves it, and more people hate it.

You want to talk about the "Honda way", that's fine...when it is applied to Honda. But Acura should be in a whole different league, but the decisions that were chosen by management and the lack of focus keeps it in the same league as Honda.

Nuff said...DOMINO!

Colin

I don't know why I waste my time... What do you mean by "DOMINO" ?

JD23

Who are the so-called people, besides you, that consider this a mistake? If Acura was successful following this change, how can it be considered a mistake? Many of the so-called mistakes are just things that you disagree with, but I don't see how some of them could be considered mistakes by any objective measure.

Colin

LOL and considering that he has had a CL (as he says "a mistake") and an M (not a name BTW) which is anything but a runaway hit, makes me wonder about his thought processes.

And, whet the heck does "DOMINO!" mean?

mrdeeno

I guess you guys never saw Oceans 13.

And so what if i had a CL? I bought it, I liked it. and yes, it STILL was a mistake in the scheme of things. That doesn't mean it was a bad car, or that it wasn't the right car for me.

And yes, the M is a successful competitor in the midsize luxury segment. If you knew what you were talkign about and actually researched how well sales were when compared to its established competitors, especially the GS, maybe you'd understand, so I don't see what your point is. It has been a STELLAR performer, especially when compared to the failed RL.

Let's just put it this way, I, along with many others who have MOVED ON from Acura yet still post here, consider many of what I said as mistakes. I like the brand, and if they made the right moves and put out something that interested me, I would return to it.

But as it is, Acura has been a LACKLUSTER example of a premium brand. The Acura apologists can continue seeing that everything Acura has done as great and continue blowing smoke up each other's asses about how sales are great and all, but Acura's goal to improve image to this point has been a failure.

There's still a lot of GM apologists out there who don't blame GM's decisions on its failure and still point the finger solely at imports. Your sentiments echo theirs. And from what I've learned you can't argue with them just like you can't argue with the Acura apologists because their views are so biased.

Acura is perfect, let's leave it at that

Colin

LOL, who's views are biased? You have your mind made up. You speak opinions as fact, when they are just opinions. It is YOUR opinion that Acura is "a LACKLUSTER example of a premium brand" and I might even agree with it since I pointed to numerous areas where your opinions had merit.

My post was to show an alternative point of view that you dismiss wholeheartedly because "you can't argue with the Acura apologists because their views are so biased." If you read closer, you'd see that I'm anything BUT an "apologist" and my posts are probably closer to 'center' than yours are and therefor LESS biased.

SSFTSX

you have to look at context. 2G RL has worse or similar fuel economy to V8 competitors but performance poor than its V6 rivals. and there is no hint of customization in $50K car. it cannot outhandle BMW with sport suspension or have Lexus finess. the tried to combine everything into one heavy car.
Integra is fine car and should have continued to follow on with better car like Euro Civic Type R. It is better to sell 2K cars a month with $2k profit than 500 with $8k profit. there is revenue stream in service/parts and cost of development was minimal.
Whats the point of that turbo engine/SH-AWD in RDX? this thing probably didnot cover its own R&D expenses.
on other hand a Euro Civic based Acura would have lower than entry bar to own Acura brand. so many more cars would have sold.







this thing is far better than RDX. take sales away from Scion/Subaru/EVO

look at push button start/Alcantera sport seats/LSD/HID/TSX like navigation/steering wheel/18inch alloys/dual zone climate in GT/power folding mirrors




dual integrated exhaust.

mrdeeno

And you speak your opinions as facts also. Let's leave it at that...you can be an apologist or closer to "center" as much as you want to be. My opinion is that you're wrong and your opinion is that I'm wrong, so end of discussion.

Colin

It is a fact that you are only wrong when you stop learning new things. I am always open to the exchange of new ideas. Peace.