Acura: TSX News
#3121
Moderator
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124873997073285323.html
http://www.luxurywatchesoutlet.info/...e-regulations/
What's the final verdict?
http://www.luxurywatchesoutlet.info/...e-regulations/
What's the final verdict?
Furthermore, I think you are overestimating the degree to which these "exemptions" are aiding these manufacturers given the levied fines: http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rul...ed_summary.pdf
You also might want to get some more recent data; check the performance of 2011 model years - http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rul...ary_Report.pdf
The fact of the matter is, during the same month that BMW offered its ECU flash for the 335 and 135, they agreed to the Obama Administrations CAFE targets north of 54MPG. You've still failed to link the two issues.
Stop shooting yourself in the foot with weakly supported arguments; they make you look more and more like you lack any semblance of objectivity.
This.
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Costco (09-27-2011)
#3122
Карты убийцы
I'd thought Acura would have used alot more aluminum in the TSX to reduce weight. B ut people are correct about the price point... in fact one dealer offered a TL with Tech cheaper than a TSX V6 tech.
Luckily I found another dealer and bought $5K below sticker, and I was still fresh with the sour taste of the third tranny dump in my 2003 TL.
Luckily I found another dealer and bought $5K below sticker, and I was still fresh with the sour taste of the third tranny dump in my 2003 TL.
#3123
Oh good grief, there are a variety of exemptions all over the place; for example - http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...308019933/1320
Furthermore, I think you are overestimating the degree to which these "exemptions" are aiding these manufacturers given the levied fines: http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rul...ed_summary.pdf
You also might want to get some more recent data; check the performance of 2011 model years - http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rul...ary_Report.pdf
The fact of the matter is, during the same month that BMW offered its ECU flash for the 335 and 135, they agreed to the Obama Administrations CAFE targets north of 54MPG. You've still failed to link the two issues.
Stop shooting yourself in the foot with weakly supported arguments; they make you look more and more like you lack any semblance of objectivity.
This.
Furthermore, I think you are overestimating the degree to which these "exemptions" are aiding these manufacturers given the levied fines: http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rul...ed_summary.pdf
You also might want to get some more recent data; check the performance of 2011 model years - http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rul...ary_Report.pdf
The fact of the matter is, during the same month that BMW offered its ECU flash for the 335 and 135, they agreed to the Obama Administrations CAFE targets north of 54MPG. You've still failed to link the two issues.
Stop shooting yourself in the foot with weakly supported arguments; they make you look more and more like you lack any semblance of objectivity.
This.
Sorry, but it is YOU that is going out of your way to promote BMW here.
Thanks for playing.
Thanks for flinging personal insults.
Now you are added to my list to IGNORE.
#3125
Moderator
I used BMW as an example; I wasn't attempting to promote the brand.
From the time I was 16-19 ('87-'91) I owned a '76 Datsun pickup truck.
I then spent 2 years away from home where I didn't need a car ('91-'93)
When I returned home, I purchased a '91 Acura Integra LS-SE which I owned for 8 years ('93-'01)
I got married in '94 and purchased a second car for my wife in '96 - an '87 Honda Accord LX which we kept until '00.
In '00 we bought an '00 Honda Accord SE which we kept until '06.
We had a '96 Accord LX that we got in '01 that was stolen and totaled in '03.
In 2003, we purchased a '03 Honda Pilot EX-L that we still have today.
I purchased an '06 Acura TL in '06.
I sold my '06 TL in July of this year and purchased my '07 BMW M5.
For the past 17 years all we had was Hondas and Acuras. I was a brand loyalist and then they lost me. They've gone nowhere. I wanted to like the 4G TL; I couldn't. I wanted to like the latest generation of the Pilot; I can't.
In short, I am the last guy you should be writing off as a "fan-boy" for some other brand. On the contrary, I represent all that's gone wrong with Honda's ability to keep its customers.
Last edited by ttribe; 09-27-2011 at 12:54 PM.
#3127
Moderator
#3129
Well done ttribe. Clearly you drive a Civic, just like everyone else who complains about Honda and the lack of adrenaline in their lineup
What do you think will make the TSX appealing to a buyer such as yourself? After you have now taken the step up to an M5, that is. Or is it beyond redemption now?
What do you think will make the TSX appealing to a buyer such as yourself? After you have now taken the step up to an M5, that is. Or is it beyond redemption now?
#3130
Moderator
Well done ttribe. Clearly you drive a Civic, just like everyone else who complains about Honda and the lack of adrenaline in their lineup
What do you think will make the TSX appealing to a buyer such as yourself? After you have now taken the step up to an M5, that is. Or is it beyond redemption now?
What do you think will make the TSX appealing to a buyer such as yourself? After you have now taken the step up to an M5, that is. Or is it beyond redemption now?
This SE is a lot like my SE Integra. It adds a few cosmetic enhancements that make the vehicle look a little more sporty, but it's not going to fool anyone who understands what an actual performance sedan can do. In short, I think this version of the TSX will be popular with a relatively young crowd, but it won't build lasting brand loyalty because owners will always be wishing for more from it.
#3131
Burning Brakes
I give Acura credit for making the new TL in SH-AWD trim a good performer, but the styling, even after the facelift is ugly. It's just too bloated for a performance sedan. If they could drop the underpinnings on a smaller, more agile body they could have a real contender.
#3132
Moderator
I give Acura credit for making the new TL in SH-AWD trim a good performer, but the styling, even after the facelift is ugly. It's just too bloated for a performance sedan. If they could drop the underpinnings on a smaller, more agile body they could have a real contender.
#3133
Honda Fanboy
I don't see how it is problematic when even with a FWD platform, it still manages to outperform almost every car in its class on a track.
#3134
Moderator
I have no way to confirm or refute your "outperform almost every car in its class on a track comment", but it's biased toward the front wheels and any efforts to increase the power output of the engine are going to mess with the torque steer dampening.
#3135
Honda Fanboy
Power is only biased to the front wheels when the car is cruising (when the difference between FWD and RWD is non-existent), and even then the rear is still receiving power. When under a performance situation, the rear wheels receive up to 70% of the power. I've never read any magazine complain about having issues with torque steer with SH-AWD, so it's highly unlikely that the TL or any Acura equipped with SH-AWD will exhibit such.
#3136
Moderator
All you have to do is look up any magazine article that has the TL up against any other car in its class. There is a decent amount.
Power is only biased to the front wheels when the car is cruising (when the difference between FWD and RWD is non-existent), and even then the rear is still receiving power. When under a performance situation, the rear wheels receive up to 70% of the power. I've never read any magazine complain about having issues with torque steer with SH-AWD, so it's highly unlikely that the TL or any Acura equipped with SH-AWD will exhibit such.
Power is only biased to the front wheels when the car is cruising (when the difference between FWD and RWD is non-existent), and even then the rear is still receiving power. When under a performance situation, the rear wheels receive up to 70% of the power. I've never read any magazine complain about having issues with torque steer with SH-AWD, so it's highly unlikely that the TL or any Acura equipped with SH-AWD will exhibit such.
#3137
Honda Fanboy
With a RWD car, a 200hp bump over stock, for example, still has to go to the rear two wheels only. To make use of that power in say a 335i, there really needs to be upgrades to the wheels and possibly suspension in order to put the power down without spinning out all the time. With SH-AWD, even on a FWD platform, (IMO) it can handle a 200hp bump much more efficiently. With approximately 505 hp, when SH-AWD shifts power during a time of performance driving, you would have 353 hp going to the rear wheels and and 152 hp going to the front wheels. Considering the experience Acura has with FWD, 152 hp to the front wheels is nothing and is far from exhibiting any torque steer.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm for a FWD chassis. My ideal setup would be SH-AWD in a rear-wheel drive chassis. However, the point I was trying to make is that the FWD platform of the TL isn't as limiting to performance as some people may think.
#3138
Moderator
I don't know because I don't know of anyone who has increased the engine output of their SH-AWD equipped car by a significant amount. I would assume it would follow the same route any car would when engine power is increased substantially over stock. A FWD car will suffer the most, followed by a RWD, and last, (IMO) an SH-AWD type of car.
With a RWD car, a 200hp bump over stock, for example, still has to go to the rear two wheels only. To make use of that power in say a 335i, there really needs to be upgrades to the wheels and possibly suspension in order to put the power down without spinning out all the time. With SH-AWD, even on a FWD platform, (IMO) it can handle a 200hp bump much more efficiently. With approximately 505 hp, when SH-AWD shifts power during a time of performance driving, you would have 353 hp going to the rear wheels and and 152 hp going to the front wheels. Considering the experience Acura has with FWD, 152 hp to the front wheels is nothing and is far from exhibiting any torque steer.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm for a FWD chassis. My ideal setup would be SH-AWD in a rear-wheel drive chassis. However, the point I was trying to make is that the FWD platform of the TL isn't as limiting to performance as some people may think.
With a RWD car, a 200hp bump over stock, for example, still has to go to the rear two wheels only. To make use of that power in say a 335i, there really needs to be upgrades to the wheels and possibly suspension in order to put the power down without spinning out all the time. With SH-AWD, even on a FWD platform, (IMO) it can handle a 200hp bump much more efficiently. With approximately 505 hp, when SH-AWD shifts power during a time of performance driving, you would have 353 hp going to the rear wheels and and 152 hp going to the front wheels. Considering the experience Acura has with FWD, 152 hp to the front wheels is nothing and is far from exhibiting any torque steer.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm for a FWD chassis. My ideal setup would be SH-AWD in a rear-wheel drive chassis. However, the point I was trying to make is that the FWD platform of the TL isn't as limiting to performance as some people may think.
#3139
Senior Moderator
Honestly, I don't know enough about the technology to dive too deeply into this, but my (somewhat informed) intuition tells me that a front-biased AWD system is going to reach the limits of performance sustainability quicker than a rear-biased one simply because of the designed tendency to run too much of the power through the wheels that are simultaneously being used for steering. That being said, just about everything on a modern vehicle seems to be adjustable with a few software tweaks; perhaps that is the case with this as well.
some magazine articles
Lap times
Acura TL shawd: 1:01.51
BMW 335i Sport: 1:01.8
Infiniti G37S Sport: 1:01.96
Audi S4 (yes the one with a V8): 1:00.41
Then there is this article testing the same cars
http://www.insideline.com/acura/tl/2...rst-drive.html
Last edited by fsttyms1; 09-28-2011 at 11:19 AM.
#3140
Moderator
But you seem to be missing the point that in a vectoring AWD system the power gets routed to the wheels with the most traction. If the rears are saying give me more power they get it not the front. You are thinking as though the awd system is only FWD. There is only so much power any set of wheels can put to the pavement efficiently, but if 4 wheels are doing it its better than just the rears regardless of fwd based system Ive driven the TL SHAWD on a track and it didnt exhibit the fwd style of driving.
some magazine articles
Lap times
Acura TL shawd: 1:01.51
BMW 335i Sport: 1:01.8
Infiniti G37S Sport: 1:01.96
Audi S4 (yes the one with a V8): 1:00.41
Then there is this article testing the same cars
http://www.insideline.com/acura/tl/2...rst-drive.html
some magazine articles
Lap times
Acura TL shawd: 1:01.51
BMW 335i Sport: 1:01.8
Infiniti G37S Sport: 1:01.96
Audi S4 (yes the one with a V8): 1:00.41
Then there is this article testing the same cars
http://www.insideline.com/acura/tl/2...rst-drive.html
#3141
Senior Moderator
I just wish there was a 400hp or so engine option to really take advantage of the great AWD system. (and set it apart from the TSX)
#3142
Senior Moderator
Well, can we just say that you don't buy a Honda/Acura anymore if you want to go supremely fast...?
Perhaps the demographic they are catering to (i.e. middle age family with kids) does not care so much about that?
Perhaps the demographic they are catering to (i.e. middle age family with kids) does not care so much about that?
#3143
Moderator
I was just about to add to my post above - given the capabilities of the AWD system, it's even more of a shame that Acura is handicapping these cars with sub-par engines compared to the competition - your post basically echoed my sentiment.
#3144
Moderator
#3145
Senior Moderator
#3146
Moderator
Yeah, I know. I guess it's just a shame that Acura doesn't even let you have the option. No "M", no "S", no "F", no "AMG", not even "A-Spec" anymore. Just slightly warmed-over aesthetics on a "Special Edition".
#3148
Senior Moderator
#3149
Senior Moderator
For instance, in talking to my dealership, they still say the FX50S is not their bread-and-butter car and that I have one of only a small handful in the city. The rest of the FX buyers are all in 35s. It's literally a 15-1 ratio...
Same goes for the AMG cars at the Merc dealership...So, if you go with that, Honda's probably trying to maximize their profits/earnings and so, their logic is probably why build a trim that few people will buy.
Just a thought.
#3150
Moderator
Of course. That being said, most of the other luxury brands are catering, at least partially, to enthusiasts with options, etc. HMC has basically abandoned the enthusiast in favor of vanilla. That decision creates a perception issue for the brand.
I agree that it appears to be their approach. Is it working? I don't know. Honda/Acura sales have been down, but there are a variety of influencing factors there (economy, earthquake, etc.). Nevertheless, as a FORMER Acura enthusiast, I continue to lament the fact that they couldn't keep me in the fold. There was just nothing left to get excited about.
It's an interesting business model...and sure, while most manufacturers offer it, how much of their sale is comprised of the higher-performance (i.e. sporty) line?
For instance, in talking to my dealership, they still say the FX50S is not their bread-and-butter car and that I have one of only a small handful in the city. The rest of the FX buyers are all in 35s. It's literally a 15-1 ratio...
Same goes for the AMG cars at the Merc dealership...So, if you go with that, Honda's probably trying to maximize their profits/earnings and so, their logic is probably why build a trim that few people will buy.
Just a thought.
For instance, in talking to my dealership, they still say the FX50S is not their bread-and-butter car and that I have one of only a small handful in the city. The rest of the FX buyers are all in 35s. It's literally a 15-1 ratio...
Same goes for the AMG cars at the Merc dealership...So, if you go with that, Honda's probably trying to maximize their profits/earnings and so, their logic is probably why build a trim that few people will buy.
Just a thought.
Last edited by ttribe; 09-28-2011 at 11:56 AM.
#3151
Senior Moderator
Well, if I could think out loud which manufacturers are kinda like Honda/Acura in this approach...
Volvo comes to mind.
Volvo comes to mind.
#3152
Moderator
Yep, that's not a bad comparison. But, I'm not sure that the same company that advertises itself under the "Advance" marquee wants to be lumped in with a Swedish quasi-lux brand known more for it's boxy style and safety than anything else.
#3153
Senior Moderator
The Acura line which, we all agree, is not in the luxury market but rather, a premium market. And in that regard, they are quite ahead of the pack in regards to what you get for the price. The cars are loaded with features...sure, some are things that some peeps yawn at...but, to the average joe, it is quite jammed with amenities.
#3154
Moderator
The Acura line which, we all agree, is not in the luxury market but rather, a premium market. And in that regard, they are quite ahead of the pack in regards to what you get for the price. The cars are loaded with features...sure, some are things that some peeps yawn at...but, to the average joe, it is quite jammed with amenities.
#3155
Senior Moderator
Of course. That being said, most of the other luxury brands are catering, at least partially, to enthusiasts with options, etc. HMC has basically abandoned the enthusiast in favor of vanilla. That decision creates a perception issue for the brand.
I agree that it appears to be their approach. Is it working? I don't know. Honda/Acura sales have been down, but there are a variety of influencing factors there (economy, earthquake, etc.). Nevertheless, as a FORMER Acura enthusiast, I continue to lament the fact that they couldn't keep me in the fold. There was just nothing left to get excited about.
I agree that it appears to be their approach. Is it working? I don't know. Honda/Acura sales have been down, but there are a variety of influencing factors there (economy, earthquake, etc.). Nevertheless, as a FORMER Acura enthusiast, I continue to lament the fact that they couldn't keep me in the fold. There was just nothing left to get excited about.
#3156
Having customers leave the brand is never good, but H/A doesn't really make a car that would compete with an M5 (few manufacturers actually do). So, IMO, if that's the kind of car you want, its natural that you'd leave. From my perspective, of greater concern is the lack of a true entry level product to capture the imagination of the 20 year old mirror of yourself today. The TSX at ~30K is just too high compared to the '91 Integra (even if adjusted for inflation).
#3157
Карты убийцы
Well...hang on...that's Acura. Honda does not advertise itself that way.
The Acura line which, we all agree, is not in the luxury market but rather, a premium market. And in that regard, they are quite ahead of the pack in regards to what you get for the price. The cars are loaded with features...sure, some are things that some peeps yawn at...but, to the average joe, it is quite jammed with amenities.
The Acura line which, we all agree, is not in the luxury market but rather, a premium market. And in that regard, they are quite ahead of the pack in regards to what you get for the price. The cars are loaded with features...sure, some are things that some peeps yawn at...but, to the average joe, it is quite jammed with amenities.
#3158
Moderator
Having customers leave the brand is never good, but H/A doesn't really make a car that would compete with an M5 (few manufacturers actually do). So, IMO, if that's the kind of car you want, its natural that you'd leave. From my perspective, of greater concern is the lack of a true entry level product to capture the imagination of the 20 year old mirror of yourself today. The TSX at ~30K is just too high compared to the '91 Integra (even if adjusted for inflation).
ETA: You also make a good point about the entry-level for Acura. It strikes at the heart of the positioning of the Acura brand. Is it, in fact, a "premium" brand as Yumcha suggests? In that case, the TSX as an entry model is priced too high, IMO. Is it a luxury brand? In which case they aren't competing as well as they could with other brands' entry-level cars, at least in terms of the optioned-out version of the car.
Last edited by ttribe; 09-28-2011 at 02:44 PM.
#3159
Senior Moderator
Having customers leave the brand is never good, but H/A doesn't really make a car that would compete with an M5 (few manufacturers actually do). So, IMO, if that's the kind of car you want, its natural that you'd leave. From my perspective, of greater concern is the lack of a true entry level product to capture the imagination of the 20 year old mirror of yourself today. The TSX at ~30K is just too high compared to the '91 Integra (even if adjusted for inflation).
Also acura seems to have gone so far up in median price they are targeting the higher income people , those that can and do want more and have the income to buy it. An entry level car for the 20s crowd just doesnt seem to fit their direction as of late.
#3160
An entry level car for the 20s crowd just doesnt seem to fit their direction as of late.