Acura: TSX News
02-09-2009, 03:50 PM
#1881
Senior Moderator
A V6 TSX will sell like hotcakes in this economy. It is a small, tossable, inexpensive little cutie of a entry luxury car and giving it a more favorable power to weight ratio will only make it better.
I will buck the consensus of this thread and say this is a GREAT idea......though to differentiate it from the TL better I would have used the J30 engine. But Honda has clearly thought that out.
I don't think it will significantly impact 4G TL sales outside of the base model because the TL has more features and is a bigger car.
As noted above, various other makes do this type of engine sharing, it's only good product and financial planning to get $$$ out of the development of the engine.
Mark my words: THIS is the real beginning of a Tier 1 strategy....though I was hoping that the big Chicago announcement was going to be the 2010 V8 RWD/SH-AWD bigger RL with a 11 second 1/4 mile and a beautiful design sans beak.
.....a brotha's gotta dream....
I will buck the consensus of this thread and say this is a GREAT idea......though to differentiate it from the TL better I would have used the J30 engine. But Honda has clearly thought that out.
I don't think it will significantly impact 4G TL sales outside of the base model because the TL has more features and is a bigger car.
As noted above, various other makes do this type of engine sharing, it's only good product and financial planning to get $$$ out of the development of the engine.
Mark my words: THIS is the real beginning of a Tier 1 strategy....though I was hoping that the big Chicago announcement was going to be the 2010 V8 RWD/SH-AWD bigger RL with a 11 second 1/4 mile and a beautiful design sans beak.
.....a brotha's gotta dream....
02-09-2009, 03:55 PM
#1882
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
yes, V6 TSX WILL sell very well..... that's for sure...... it will be a promising vehicle as an entry level luxury car for Acura. however, the whole line up doesn't seem like that promising in the long run to me. that's all.
02-09-2009, 03:56 PM
#1883
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
i so want this too................. Acura!!! come on!!! build one!
02-09-2009, 04:01 PM
#1884
The sizzle in the Steak
What you want is more standard manual transmissions....Honda says no.
Do you want a dual clutch manual?
Good luck...perhaps in 2018.
02-09-2009, 04:08 PM
#1885
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
if we just don't say anything at all, then they might just get mad and introduce some real good stuff.........
i hope they are just teasing us.......
i hope they are just teasing us.......
02-09-2009, 04:08 PM
#1886
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
and... dual clutch manual... no way
02-09-2009, 04:09 PM
#1887
Engineer
Word on the street is that the 2010 Acura TSX V6 will be revealed during the media days at next week's 2009 Chicago Auto Show. Details are scarce, but from what we've been told, expect to see the V6 version of the TSX fitted with standard 18" wheels, restyled front end treatment, some unique interior bits, and apparently the same 3.5L 280hp V6 that is currently found on FWD 2009 TL models.
02-09-2009, 04:15 PM
#1888
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
^ hopefully.......
Acura MUST have heard of its controversial grille.... most of magazines have been making fun of it.... so.... hopefully..... they will listen...
Acura MUST have heard of its controversial grille.... most of magazines have been making fun of it.... so.... hopefully..... they will listen...
02-09-2009, 04:21 PM
#1890
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
^ 
never thought of that ahahaha
never thought of that ahahaha
02-09-2009, 04:22 PM
#1891
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
i mean Acura seems like they'd like to construct this whole brand identity theme these days.........
they might incorporate the TL's grille into the new V6 TSX....... helll... no
they might incorporate the TL's grille into the new V6 TSX....... helll... no
02-09-2009, 04:25 PM
#1892
The sizzle in the Steak
to dog
02-09-2009, 04:37 PM
#1894
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
eww
02-09-2009, 04:58 PM
#1895
The sizzle in the Steak
02-09-2009, 05:27 PM
#1896
You'll Never Walk Alone
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lol are you guys just being sarcastic here? I thought when the TSX came out, a lot of people complain the lack of power. Now they dump this 3.5L V6 in wiht 280hp, and some of you are complaining there's too much power and might screw TL's sales? IMO, if they were to put the K23T in there, people would then complain how that car would still be less powerful than the Accord, or how there's going to be turbo lag, or poor fuel economy, etc. Or may be something like "still no V6 in the TSX? LAME!"
I also can't believe how one can say Honda desperately put a V6 in the TSX since the TL isn't doing well in sales...car development doesn't occur that quickly...and also Jeff at TOV already mentioned early last year that a V6 was on its way to the TSX, way before the launch of the new TL.
Another thing, a person made a very good post, let me post it on here,
"You know if there's anything that stuck out to me from talking to fellow friends and family about the new styling direction Acura is going, it's one thing: Different. Infiniti and Lexus' were described as "euro", taking ques from BMW and of course MB. Styling is subjective, but when it comes down to it almost everyone can agree: Acura looks different for good or for worse.
I took it a step further, and provided 3 photos of the G sedan, the Lexus ES, and the Acura TL (I assumed them to be in the same category) and showed the 3 photos to people. While the Acura TL MAY NOT win the "prettiest" award, almost everyone can agree that it's "different" from many other companies in its offering. Now whether or not they like the car is a different story, but then again some of these guys drove BMW's and Audi's all their life. My goal wasn't to convert them into Acura, but they did point out one thing in particular that struck out to me, "If Acura looked the same and offered the same things as BMW, then why would I bother leaving BMW to Acura?"
Great question. Which leads us to the question if thats really the only way Acura can compete, satisfy everyone and achieve tier 1 status? By modeling its styles, packages, engine output, engine type and drivetrain after companies that already offer these things? Vice versa, if today Acura offered all these things and priced their products the same as BMW's, what's keeping you in Acura to begin with?
A great example was provided from some of the previous posts talking about Infiniti. Infiniti definitely took the power route, modeling itself after BMW with similar offerings and powerful engines etc. but the question is why hasn't Infiniti overtaken BMW or even Acura? In fact, why aren't most of the people wishing Acura to offer the exact same things Infiniti is currently offering, buying Infiniti's?
I'm not here to instigate or propose that non-fanboys leave this site, go buy another brand, or etc. But what it comes down to is this: The market share that everyone wants Acura to jump into is already saturated by BMW, Infiniti, and even Audi. It's like... Honda/Acura aren't stupid. Takeo Fukui doesn't read these forums, they know that in order to compete, they will need to offer "fancier" and "heavier" items. The question is how do you offer something, yet remain unique from the rest of the competition?
Lexus went the MB route, offering more luxury than performance in its vehicles. Infiniti arguably went with power. Audi with with styling and 4WD. Where... exactly and how does Acura fit in? All this "Acura needs this, Acura needs that" WE GET IT, IT GETS VERY OLD. Please offer your insight as to how to market these things as different and unique, when 4 of your competitors already offering similar products in similar ranges with styling that "everyone" loves.
Dick Colliver said one thing that I definitely agree with: To achieve "tier one", you can't do it with just products alone. You have to earn your way there, and really convince people that what you offer is good.
Again with Infiniti. BMW drivers aren't leaving BMW's to go to Infiniti. In fact, I highly doubt BMW or Infiniti drivers will leave their brands to come to Acura looking for the same thing when they already have it. Products itself will not elevate anyone to tier one, but I will agree that it'll make others take Acura more seriously. Again, we all know that. Constant reiteration of the same, old, thing really gets old.
I think, to a more extreme extent, the problem with Acura not achieving tier 1 status is because even Acura owners doubt the brand. We scoff at their statements, blast them for not keeping their word, demand products to be offered now, yet expect to be magically taken to tier one to share in the limelight. It's one thing to say, "Hey, I love my Acura and this is a great brand. I wished it offered more of this good stuff and a V8 would be a great upgrade." vs "Acura's can't compete on any level. Look at the new stuff that's coming out. WAY to lose me Acura" I'm not saying blindly following the company like sheep will achieve anything, but it takes a little bit of faith really, and the realization that this industry is beyond what you and I can comprehend.
Furthermore, we're talking about $30,000+ products, that requires factories and assembly lines to produce. For a moment, seriously think about it. You are sitting here, in front of your computer demanding to be heard and dictating a billion dollar company what they need to do in order to win your confidence so that maybe you'll buy one of its products? You, not knowing a thing about the laws of incorporation, international tax, or factory management / production are dictating what Honda should do. Somewhere along the line, you really expect this company that's been in this business for over 50 years to ship parts from all around the world, factory to factory, build some 50,000 units of $35,000+ cars so that you can look at it in the showroom and possibly buy one.
THINK ABOUT IT.
I'll bet the farm that this 50 yr old billion dollar company knows a little more than you give it credit for. The products will come when the timing is right. Just takes faith.
Or you can go keep this charade up because who knows, maybe today someone will visit TOV and not realize Acura is not being taken seriously because of the lack of:
REAL WOOD!
V8!
NON-ACCORD BASED PLATFORMS!
RWD!
YOUR SUPPORT!"
By Ganplosive at TOV
Link: http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...item_id=814183
I also can't believe how one can say Honda desperately put a V6 in the TSX since the TL isn't doing well in sales...car development doesn't occur that quickly...and also Jeff at TOV already mentioned early last year that a V6 was on its way to the TSX, way before the launch of the new TL.
Another thing, a person made a very good post, let me post it on here,
"You know if there's anything that stuck out to me from talking to fellow friends and family about the new styling direction Acura is going, it's one thing: Different. Infiniti and Lexus' were described as "euro", taking ques from BMW and of course MB. Styling is subjective, but when it comes down to it almost everyone can agree: Acura looks different for good or for worse.
I took it a step further, and provided 3 photos of the G sedan, the Lexus ES, and the Acura TL (I assumed them to be in the same category) and showed the 3 photos to people. While the Acura TL MAY NOT win the "prettiest" award, almost everyone can agree that it's "different" from many other companies in its offering. Now whether or not they like the car is a different story, but then again some of these guys drove BMW's and Audi's all their life. My goal wasn't to convert them into Acura, but they did point out one thing in particular that struck out to me, "If Acura looked the same and offered the same things as BMW, then why would I bother leaving BMW to Acura?"
Great question. Which leads us to the question if thats really the only way Acura can compete, satisfy everyone and achieve tier 1 status? By modeling its styles, packages, engine output, engine type and drivetrain after companies that already offer these things? Vice versa, if today Acura offered all these things and priced their products the same as BMW's, what's keeping you in Acura to begin with?
A great example was provided from some of the previous posts talking about Infiniti. Infiniti definitely took the power route, modeling itself after BMW with similar offerings and powerful engines etc. but the question is why hasn't Infiniti overtaken BMW or even Acura? In fact, why aren't most of the people wishing Acura to offer the exact same things Infiniti is currently offering, buying Infiniti's?
I'm not here to instigate or propose that non-fanboys leave this site, go buy another brand, or etc. But what it comes down to is this: The market share that everyone wants Acura to jump into is already saturated by BMW, Infiniti, and even Audi. It's like... Honda/Acura aren't stupid. Takeo Fukui doesn't read these forums, they know that in order to compete, they will need to offer "fancier" and "heavier" items. The question is how do you offer something, yet remain unique from the rest of the competition?
Lexus went the MB route, offering more luxury than performance in its vehicles. Infiniti arguably went with power. Audi with with styling and 4WD. Where... exactly and how does Acura fit in? All this "Acura needs this, Acura needs that" WE GET IT, IT GETS VERY OLD. Please offer your insight as to how to market these things as different and unique, when 4 of your competitors already offering similar products in similar ranges with styling that "everyone" loves.
Dick Colliver said one thing that I definitely agree with: To achieve "tier one", you can't do it with just products alone. You have to earn your way there, and really convince people that what you offer is good.
Again with Infiniti. BMW drivers aren't leaving BMW's to go to Infiniti. In fact, I highly doubt BMW or Infiniti drivers will leave their brands to come to Acura looking for the same thing when they already have it. Products itself will not elevate anyone to tier one, but I will agree that it'll make others take Acura more seriously. Again, we all know that. Constant reiteration of the same, old, thing really gets old.
I think, to a more extreme extent, the problem with Acura not achieving tier 1 status is because even Acura owners doubt the brand. We scoff at their statements, blast them for not keeping their word, demand products to be offered now, yet expect to be magically taken to tier one to share in the limelight. It's one thing to say, "Hey, I love my Acura and this is a great brand. I wished it offered more of this good stuff and a V8 would be a great upgrade." vs "Acura's can't compete on any level. Look at the new stuff that's coming out. WAY to lose me Acura" I'm not saying blindly following the company like sheep will achieve anything, but it takes a little bit of faith really, and the realization that this industry is beyond what you and I can comprehend.
Furthermore, we're talking about $30,000+ products, that requires factories and assembly lines to produce. For a moment, seriously think about it. You are sitting here, in front of your computer demanding to be heard and dictating a billion dollar company what they need to do in order to win your confidence so that maybe you'll buy one of its products? You, not knowing a thing about the laws of incorporation, international tax, or factory management / production are dictating what Honda should do. Somewhere along the line, you really expect this company that's been in this business for over 50 years to ship parts from all around the world, factory to factory, build some 50,000 units of $35,000+ cars so that you can look at it in the showroom and possibly buy one.
THINK ABOUT IT.
I'll bet the farm that this 50 yr old billion dollar company knows a little more than you give it credit for. The products will come when the timing is right. Just takes faith.
Or you can go keep this charade up because who knows, maybe today someone will visit TOV and not realize Acura is not being taken seriously because of the lack of:
REAL WOOD!
V8!
NON-ACCORD BASED PLATFORMS!
RWD!
YOUR SUPPORT!"
By Ganplosive at TOV
Link: http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...item_id=814183
02-09-2009, 06:35 PM
#1897
Three Wheelin'
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By Ganplosive at TOV
Link: http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...item_id=814183
Link: http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...item_id=814183
...LAME!!!
02-09-2009, 06:48 PM
#1898
6G TLX-S
lol are you guys just being sarcastic here? I thought when the TSX came out, a lot of people complain the lack of power. Now they dump this 3.5L V6 in wiht 280hp, and some of you are complaining there's too much power and might screw TL's sales? IMO, if they were to put the K23T in there, people would then complain how that car would still be less powerful than the Accord, or how there's going to be turbo lag, or poor fuel economy, etc. Or may be something like "still no V6 in the TSX? LAME!"
.....
.....
The perfect solution is to put the 244hp 3L-V6 (from the Accord) into the TSX. Now the V6 TSX has the guts to compete, and also won't step on the TL's toe.
The only case that the TSX can use the 3.5L-V6 is that the TL has the V8 option engine. Then the TL still has the edge and not to be threaten by a member from it's own brand - the TSX.
02-09-2009, 06:52 PM
#1899
The sizzle in the Steak
Wrong engine this V6 is....I will say it again and again.
...and yes this is desparation time for Acura....anyone can see that.
...and yes this is desparation time for Acura....anyone can see that.
02-09-2009, 07:09 PM
#1900
Senior Moderator
Sorry, but you guys are just plain wrong.
A detuned J35 is just what the TSX needs. BMW does the same thing with its engines....passes them to other models. It's simple economics.
Acura is no longer kidding around with this move, if proven true. The new, bigger TL was the first shot into Tier 1 status. Let me tell you, schnoz or no, that car is heads above the 3G TL in driving dynamics and luxury appointments. I know this because I just spent a week with a BASE TL....and LIKED it. (I still don't like the Power Phlegm grille, though). The V6 TSX is is the next step. I am confident that the next RL will be world-beating.
I've bashed Acura myself when I felt it was needed, but I think Acura should be congratulated for doing something that its buyers have asked for--improving the power to weight ratio of the TSX. AWESOME.
A detuned J35 is just what the TSX needs. BMW does the same thing with its engines....passes them to other models. It's simple economics.
Acura is no longer kidding around with this move, if proven true. The new, bigger TL was the first shot into Tier 1 status. Let me tell you, schnoz or no, that car is heads above the 3G TL in driving dynamics and luxury appointments. I know this because I just spent a week with a BASE TL....and LIKED it. (I still don't like the Power Phlegm grille, though). The V6 TSX is is the next step. I am confident that the next RL will be world-beating.
I've bashed Acura myself when I felt it was needed, but I think Acura should be congratulated for doing something that its buyers have asked for--improving the power to weight ratio of the TSX. AWESOME.
02-09-2009, 07:25 PM
#1901
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Dec 2008
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No, Acura has overdone it this time. The base 4-cylinder TSX is underpowered. It needs a V6 to compete. But it needs a smaller V6, not the very same one from the TL that will put the final nail into the TL's coffin. The TSX has overtaken the TL as the bread & butter model for the Acura brand, the TL doesn't need even more harm from the TSX.
The perfect solution is to put the 244hp 3L-V6 (from the Accord) into the TSX. Now the V6 TSX has the guts to compete, and also won't step on the TL's toe.
The only case that the TSX can use the 3.5L-V6 is that the TL has the V8 option engine. Then the TL still has the edge and not to be threaten by a member from it's own brand - the TSX.
The perfect solution is to put the 244hp 3L-V6 (from the Accord) into the TSX. Now the V6 TSX has the guts to compete, and also won't step on the TL's toe.
The only case that the TSX can use the 3.5L-V6 is that the TL has the V8 option engine. Then the TL still has the edge and not to be threaten by a member from it's own brand - the TSX.
3.5L wouldn't have been bad if it had VCM and was detuned, but I like the J30/32 idea better for TSX. Either way the TSX should have been capped at about 240-260hp. The only way I'd say it needs more is if the TL had an optionally bigger engine. That's how it works at Lexus/BMW/MB/Audi.
02-09-2009, 07:34 PM
#1902
Senior Moderator
IMO, the TSX needs 3 trims:
TSX - 2.4L 4cyl
TSX-S 3.2L 260HP 240 TQ
TSX-R 3.5L 290HP 265 TQ
That should be good for everyone....
TSX - 2.4L 4cyl
TSX-S 3.2L 260HP 240 TQ
TSX-R 3.5L 290HP 265 TQ
That should be good for everyone....
02-09-2009, 07:40 PM
#1903
6G TLX-S
3.5L wouldn't have been bad if it had VCM and was detuned, but I like the J30/32 idea better for TSX. Either way the TSX should have been capped at about 240-260hp. The only way I'd say it needs more is if the TL had an optionally bigger engine. That's how it works at Lexus/BMW/MB/Audi.
02-09-2009, 07:50 PM
#1904
fap fap fap
02-09-2009, 07:56 PM
#1905
Senior Moderator
lol are you guys just being sarcastic here? I thought when the TSX came out, a lot of people complain the lack of power. Now they dump this 3.5L V6 in wiht 280hp, and some of you are complaining there's too much power and might screw TL's sales? IMO, if they were to put the K23T in there, people would then complain how that car would still be less powerful than the Accord, or how there's going to be turbo lag, or poor fuel economy, etc. Or may be something like "still no V6 in the TSX? LAME!"
I also can't believe how one can say Honda desperately put a V6 in the TSX since the TL isn't doing well in sales...car development doesn't occur that quickly...and also Jeff at TOV already mentioned early last year that a V6 was on its way to the TSX, way before the launch of the new TL.
Another thing, a person made a very good post, let me post it on here,
"You know if there's anything that stuck out to me from talking to fellow friends and family about the new styling direction Acura is going, it's one thing: Different. Infiniti and Lexus' were described as "euro", taking ques from BMW and of course MB. Styling is subjective, but when it comes down to it almost everyone can agree: Acura looks different for good or for worse.
I took it a step further, and provided 3 photos of the G sedan, the Lexus ES, and the Acura TL (I assumed them to be in the same category) and showed the 3 photos to people. While the Acura TL MAY NOT win the "prettiest" award, almost everyone can agree that it's "different" from many other companies in its offering. Now whether or not they like the car is a different story, but then again some of these guys drove BMW's and Audi's all their life. My goal wasn't to convert them into Acura, but they did point out one thing in particular that struck out to me, "If Acura looked the same and offered the same things as BMW, then why would I bother leaving BMW to Acura?"
Great question. Which leads us to the question if thats really the only way Acura can compete, satisfy everyone and achieve tier 1 status? By modeling its styles, packages, engine output, engine type and drivetrain after companies that already offer these things? Vice versa, if today Acura offered all these things and priced their products the same as BMW's, what's keeping you in Acura to begin with?
A great example was provided from some of the previous posts talking about Infiniti. Infiniti definitely took the power route, modeling itself after BMW with similar offerings and powerful engines etc. but the question is why hasn't Infiniti overtaken BMW or even Acura? In fact, why aren't most of the people wishing Acura to offer the exact same things Infiniti is currently offering, buying Infiniti's?
I'm not here to instigate or propose that non-fanboys leave this site, go buy another brand, or etc. But what it comes down to is this: The market share that everyone wants Acura to jump into is already saturated by BMW, Infiniti, and even Audi. It's like... Honda/Acura aren't stupid. Takeo Fukui doesn't read these forums, they know that in order to compete, they will need to offer "fancier" and "heavier" items. The question is how do you offer something, yet remain unique from the rest of the competition?
Lexus went the MB route, offering more luxury than performance in its vehicles. Infiniti arguably went with power. Audi with with styling and 4WD. Where... exactly and how does Acura fit in? All this "Acura needs this, Acura needs that" WE GET IT, IT GETS VERY OLD. Please offer your insight as to how to market these things as different and unique, when 4 of your competitors already offering similar products in similar ranges with styling that "everyone" loves.
Dick Colliver said one thing that I definitely agree with: To achieve "tier one", you can't do it with just products alone. You have to earn your way there, and really convince people that what you offer is good.
Again with Infiniti. BMW drivers aren't leaving BMW's to go to Infiniti. In fact, I highly doubt BMW or Infiniti drivers will leave their brands to come to Acura looking for the same thing when they already have it. Products itself will not elevate anyone to tier one, but I will agree that it'll make others take Acura more seriously. Again, we all know that. Constant reiteration of the same, old, thing really gets old.
I think, to a more extreme extent, the problem with Acura not achieving tier 1 status is because even Acura owners doubt the brand. We scoff at their statements, blast them for not keeping their word, demand products to be offered now, yet expect to be magically taken to tier one to share in the limelight. It's one thing to say, "Hey, I love my Acura and this is a great brand. I wished it offered more of this good stuff and a V8 would be a great upgrade." vs "Acura's can't compete on any level. Look at the new stuff that's coming out. WAY to lose me Acura" I'm not saying blindly following the company like sheep will achieve anything, but it takes a little bit of faith really, and the realization that this industry is beyond what you and I can comprehend.
Furthermore, we're talking about $30,000+ products, that requires factories and assembly lines to produce. For a moment, seriously think about it. You are sitting here, in front of your computer demanding to be heard and dictating a billion dollar company what they need to do in order to win your confidence so that maybe you'll buy one of its products? You, not knowing a thing about the laws of incorporation, international tax, or factory management / production are dictating what Honda should do. Somewhere along the line, you really expect this company that's been in this business for over 50 years to ship parts from all around the world, factory to factory, build some 50,000 units of $35,000+ cars so that you can look at it in the showroom and possibly buy one.
THINK ABOUT IT.
I'll bet the farm that this 50 yr old billion dollar company knows a little more than you give it credit for. The products will come when the timing is right. Just takes faith.
Or you can go keep this charade up because who knows, maybe today someone will visit TOV and not realize Acura is not being taken seriously because of the lack of:
REAL WOOD!
V8!
NON-ACCORD BASED PLATFORMS!
RWD!
YOUR SUPPORT!"
By Ganplosive at TOV
Link: http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...item_id=814183
I also can't believe how one can say Honda desperately put a V6 in the TSX since the TL isn't doing well in sales...car development doesn't occur that quickly...and also Jeff at TOV already mentioned early last year that a V6 was on its way to the TSX, way before the launch of the new TL.
Another thing, a person made a very good post, let me post it on here,
"You know if there's anything that stuck out to me from talking to fellow friends and family about the new styling direction Acura is going, it's one thing: Different. Infiniti and Lexus' were described as "euro", taking ques from BMW and of course MB. Styling is subjective, but when it comes down to it almost everyone can agree: Acura looks different for good or for worse.
I took it a step further, and provided 3 photos of the G sedan, the Lexus ES, and the Acura TL (I assumed them to be in the same category) and showed the 3 photos to people. While the Acura TL MAY NOT win the "prettiest" award, almost everyone can agree that it's "different" from many other companies in its offering. Now whether or not they like the car is a different story, but then again some of these guys drove BMW's and Audi's all their life. My goal wasn't to convert them into Acura, but they did point out one thing in particular that struck out to me, "If Acura looked the same and offered the same things as BMW, then why would I bother leaving BMW to Acura?"
Great question. Which leads us to the question if thats really the only way Acura can compete, satisfy everyone and achieve tier 1 status? By modeling its styles, packages, engine output, engine type and drivetrain after companies that already offer these things? Vice versa, if today Acura offered all these things and priced their products the same as BMW's, what's keeping you in Acura to begin with?
A great example was provided from some of the previous posts talking about Infiniti. Infiniti definitely took the power route, modeling itself after BMW with similar offerings and powerful engines etc. but the question is why hasn't Infiniti overtaken BMW or even Acura? In fact, why aren't most of the people wishing Acura to offer the exact same things Infiniti is currently offering, buying Infiniti's?
I'm not here to instigate or propose that non-fanboys leave this site, go buy another brand, or etc. But what it comes down to is this: The market share that everyone wants Acura to jump into is already saturated by BMW, Infiniti, and even Audi. It's like... Honda/Acura aren't stupid. Takeo Fukui doesn't read these forums, they know that in order to compete, they will need to offer "fancier" and "heavier" items. The question is how do you offer something, yet remain unique from the rest of the competition?
Lexus went the MB route, offering more luxury than performance in its vehicles. Infiniti arguably went with power. Audi with with styling and 4WD. Where... exactly and how does Acura fit in? All this "Acura needs this, Acura needs that" WE GET IT, IT GETS VERY OLD. Please offer your insight as to how to market these things as different and unique, when 4 of your competitors already offering similar products in similar ranges with styling that "everyone" loves.
Dick Colliver said one thing that I definitely agree with: To achieve "tier one", you can't do it with just products alone. You have to earn your way there, and really convince people that what you offer is good.
Again with Infiniti. BMW drivers aren't leaving BMW's to go to Infiniti. In fact, I highly doubt BMW or Infiniti drivers will leave their brands to come to Acura looking for the same thing when they already have it. Products itself will not elevate anyone to tier one, but I will agree that it'll make others take Acura more seriously. Again, we all know that. Constant reiteration of the same, old, thing really gets old.
I think, to a more extreme extent, the problem with Acura not achieving tier 1 status is because even Acura owners doubt the brand. We scoff at their statements, blast them for not keeping their word, demand products to be offered now, yet expect to be magically taken to tier one to share in the limelight. It's one thing to say, "Hey, I love my Acura and this is a great brand. I wished it offered more of this good stuff and a V8 would be a great upgrade." vs "Acura's can't compete on any level. Look at the new stuff that's coming out. WAY to lose me Acura" I'm not saying blindly following the company like sheep will achieve anything, but it takes a little bit of faith really, and the realization that this industry is beyond what you and I can comprehend.
Furthermore, we're talking about $30,000+ products, that requires factories and assembly lines to produce. For a moment, seriously think about it. You are sitting here, in front of your computer demanding to be heard and dictating a billion dollar company what they need to do in order to win your confidence so that maybe you'll buy one of its products? You, not knowing a thing about the laws of incorporation, international tax, or factory management / production are dictating what Honda should do. Somewhere along the line, you really expect this company that's been in this business for over 50 years to ship parts from all around the world, factory to factory, build some 50,000 units of $35,000+ cars so that you can look at it in the showroom and possibly buy one.
THINK ABOUT IT.
I'll bet the farm that this 50 yr old billion dollar company knows a little more than you give it credit for. The products will come when the timing is right. Just takes faith.
Or you can go keep this charade up because who knows, maybe today someone will visit TOV and not realize Acura is not being taken seriously because of the lack of:
REAL WOOD!
V8!
NON-ACCORD BASED PLATFORMS!
RWD!
YOUR SUPPORT!"
By Ganplosive at TOV
Link: http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...item_id=814183
Some good points but in my view more or less the excuse filled ramblings of a Honda fanboy that seems to be common at TOV. Have faith in what exactly? What the hell is taking so long? Did they just realize last year that the Accord platform/engine/transmission wouldn't quite cut it in the luxury segment?
02-09-2009, 08:17 PM
#1907
Senior Moderator
Having multiple engine options is something that acura used to do, and needs to get back to. Having both economic 4 bangers along with higher hp options is a great way to attract new owners to the brand while retaining older owners of the brand...
02-09-2009, 08:22 PM
#1908
Senior Moderator
It can't be that difficult to take the lessons learned from the RWD offerings and AWD platforms to come up with an Acura only platform...
02-09-2009, 08:50 PM
#1909
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And that's also why there is no, IS460. At Lexus you really see smart product planning and strategy. You have the sporty entry level IS250, then you have the soft comfortable ES350, the you have the performance IS350, then you have the performance luxury GS350, then GS460, THEN IS-F, and the LS460 sits on top. With the new Acura lineup you'll have the TSX, then TSX V6 and Base TL occupying the same space and price (and both will be "sporty performance"), then you have the TL SH-AWD and RL occupying the same space and price bracket. Not as well thought out.
02-09-2009, 11:47 PM
#1910
3.5L wouldn't have been bad if it had VCM and was detuned, but I like the J30/32 idea better for TSX. Either way the TSX should have been capped at about 240-260hp. The only way I'd say it needs more is if the TL had an optionally bigger engine. That's how it works at Lexus/BMW/MB/Audi.
02-10-2009, 12:57 AM
#1911
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Like I said, if they put in the 3.0L engine in the TSX, I'm sure there will be people complaining how that's still underpower because the Accord makes more power. Remember, as some of you have said, the TSX is porky, and it's not lighter than the American Accord. I can already imagine some of you complaining the lack of torque from the 3.0L engine ("dude Honda just doesn't get it, when you have over 3500lb you will need more than 3.0L to compete."). The thing is, you can't satisfy everyone. For example, I can say Lexus should offer the IS300 here as I think 200hp is too little, while 300hp is way too much for me. Anyways, I believe they already stopped producing the J30, so it might not be the best idea to produce that engine again. Also the VCM, I thought a lot of you complain about the lack of mid-range torque with VCM? Why support it all of a sudden?
Perhaps they having something planned for the TL? Perhaps they want to move the TL up. Honda is just making small steps here. Like Neuronbob said, the 4G TL is miles better than the old 3G TL. IMO Acura is repositioning its cars, namely the TSX and TL. The problem is we are not seeing the final result yet, that's why some moves by Honda seem to be ridiculous/confusing/non-sense.
If you have been to TOV lately, you will see that the site is filled with trolls/haters rather than "fanboys." You don't even have to read the posts, read the titles and you will get a very clear idea of what I mean.
Perhaps they having something planned for the TL? Perhaps they want to move the TL up. Honda is just making small steps here. Like Neuronbob said, the 4G TL is miles better than the old 3G TL. IMO Acura is repositioning its cars, namely the TSX and TL. The problem is we are not seeing the final result yet, that's why some moves by Honda seem to be ridiculous/confusing/non-sense.
If you have been to TOV lately, you will see that the site is filled with trolls/haters rather than "fanboys." You don't even have to read the posts, read the titles and you will get a very clear idea of what I mean.
02-10-2009, 01:59 AM
#1912
Sorry, but you guys are just plain wrong.
A detuned J35 is just what the TSX needs. BMW does the same thing with its engines....passes them to other models. It's simple economics.
Acura is no longer kidding around with this move, if proven true. The new, bigger TL was the first shot into Tier 1 status. Let me tell you, schnoz or no, that car is heads above the 3G TL in driving dynamics and luxury appointments. I know this because I just spent a week with a BASE TL....and LIKED it. (I still don't like the Power Phlegm grille, though). The V6 TSX is is the next step. I am confident that the next RL will be world-beating.
I've bashed Acura myself when I felt it was needed, but I think Acura should be congratulated for doing something that its buyers have asked for--improving the power to weight ratio of the TSX. AWESOME.
A detuned J35 is just what the TSX needs. BMW does the same thing with its engines....passes them to other models. It's simple economics.
Acura is no longer kidding around with this move, if proven true. The new, bigger TL was the first shot into Tier 1 status. Let me tell you, schnoz or no, that car is heads above the 3G TL in driving dynamics and luxury appointments. I know this because I just spent a week with a BASE TL....and LIKED it. (I still don't like the Power Phlegm grille, though). The V6 TSX is is the next step. I am confident that the next RL will be world-beating.
I've bashed Acura myself when I felt it was needed, but I think Acura should be congratulated for doing something that its buyers have asked for--improving the power to weight ratio of the TSX. AWESOME.
the same thing for the new MDX vs the old one: simply another category.
we can not like the design but the overall quality of the new TSX, TL and MDX is far above the old one...
02-10-2009, 07:51 AM
#1913
Senior Moderator
Like I said, if they put in the 3.0L engine in the TSX, I'm sure there will be people complaining how that's still underpower because the Accord makes more power. Remember, as some of you have said, the TSX is porky, and it's not lighter than the American Accord. I can already imagine some of you complaining the lack of torque from the 3.0L engine ("dude Honda just doesn't get it, when you have over 3500lb you will need more than 3.0L to compete."). The thing is, you can't satisfy everyone. For example, I can say Lexus should offer the IS300 here as I think 200hp is too little, while 300hp is way too much for me. Anyways, I believe they already stopped producing the J30, so it might not be the best idea to produce that engine again. Also the VCM, I thought a lot of you complain about the lack of mid-range torque with VCM? Why support it all of a sudden?
IMO Acura is repositioning its cars, namely the TSX and TL. The problem is we are not seeing the final result yet, that's why some moves by Honda seem to be ridiculous/confusing/non-sense.
But I'm still looking forward to test driving a V6 TSX. I've been waiting 6 long years.
02-10-2009, 07:57 AM
#1915
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The "upmarket engine" of the TL is the same speed as the base engine. Aside from that fact the upmarket engine is not a V8.
A LOT of luxury sedans have less power than V6 family sedans. Some might complain about a J30 TSX, but it would still be more powerful than entry level 3 series, IS, C class, and A4. The point isn't for the TSX to be most powerful sedan ever produced. The point is having some sort of order in the Acura lineup. Since the TSX and TL are just about the same price, the V6 TSX should have been less powerful than the Base TL. With them having the same power in the same price bracket people are obviously going to choose the better looking slightly cheaper TSX V6.
VCM would have been a good idea for differentiating the TSX and TL. If the TSX V6 used the torquey J35Z4, VCM's "lack of torque" would be a non issue. The J35Z4 produces 250hp, which would be less than TL, but still highly competitive. Not only would it be competitive from a performance standpoint, but it would also be efficient.
The TL can't move much further "up" without FI or a small V8. If that were to happen (in the form of a Type S), this move might make sense, but in the near term, TL sales are dying because of the design and this will be the final nail in the coffin. The TSX is less profitable than the TL which is pretty bad news for Honda/Acura, IMO.
Haha, and you're right about TOV, but it can't be that bad anymore since Cj has been banned lol.
Like I said, if they put in the 3.0L engine in the TSX, I'm sure there will be people complaining how that's still underpower because the Accord makes more power. Remember, as some of you have said, the TSX is porky, and it's not lighter than the American Accord. I can already imagine some of you complaining the lack of torque from the 3.0L engine ("dude Honda just doesn't get it, when you have over 3500lb you will need more than 3.0L to compete."). The thing is, you can't satisfy everyone. For example, I can say Lexus should offer the IS300 here as I think 200hp is too little, while 300hp is way too much for me. Anyways, I believe they already stopped producing the J30, so it might not be the best idea to produce that engine again. Also the VCM, I thought a lot of you complain about the lack of mid-range torque with VCM? Why support it all of a sudden?
Perhaps they having something planned for the TL? Perhaps they want to move the TL up. Honda is just making small steps here. Like Neuronbob said, the 4G TL is miles better than the old 3G TL. IMO Acura is repositioning its cars, namely the TSX and TL. The problem is we are not seeing the final result yet, that's why some moves by Honda seem to be ridiculous/confusing/non-sense.
If you have been to TOV lately, you will see that the site is filled with trolls/haters rather than "fanboys." You don't even have to read the posts, read the titles and you will get a very clear idea of what I mean.
Perhaps they having something planned for the TL? Perhaps they want to move the TL up. Honda is just making small steps here. Like Neuronbob said, the 4G TL is miles better than the old 3G TL. IMO Acura is repositioning its cars, namely the TSX and TL. The problem is we are not seeing the final result yet, that's why some moves by Honda seem to be ridiculous/confusing/non-sense.
If you have been to TOV lately, you will see that the site is filled with trolls/haters rather than "fanboys." You don't even have to read the posts, read the titles and you will get a very clear idea of what I mean.
VCM would have been a good idea for differentiating the TSX and TL. If the TSX V6 used the torquey J35Z4, VCM's "lack of torque" would be a non issue. The J35Z4 produces 250hp, which would be less than TL, but still highly competitive. Not only would it be competitive from a performance standpoint, but it would also be efficient.
The TL can't move much further "up" without FI or a small V8. If that were to happen (in the form of a Type S), this move might make sense, but in the near term, TL sales are dying because of the design and this will be the final nail in the coffin. The TSX is less profitable than the TL which is pretty bad news for Honda/Acura, IMO.
Haha, and you're right about TOV, but it can't be that bad anymore since Cj has been banned lol.
02-10-2009, 09:02 AM
#1916
A V6 TSX seems like a logical step, with the TL going up in size and further discussions seemingly indicating that the next iterations of the TL and RL may move up to compete with the upper mid-size and full-size classes respectively. The TSX remains a size that is competitive with the A4, 3-series, G35, and C-class, but gets the V6 motor than it is lacking.
In the first generation car, I still contend that a V6 would not have worked well, throwing off the cars overall balance. But in the 2nd generation, the car has become a very different one and is aimed at a different audience. The V6 now suits the 2nd generation car quite well and will be a welcome addition.
Nonetheless, they should work on fixing the feel of the EPS to make it more like the new TL's. The EPS in the TSX was just terrible and provided little road feel.
02-10-2009, 11:56 AM
#1917
The sizzle in the Steak
Some good points but in my view more or less the excuse filled ramblings of a Honda fanboy that seems to be common at TOV. Have faith in what exactly? What the hell is taking so long? Did they just realize last year that the Accord platform/engine/transmission wouldn't quite cut it in the luxury segment?
Blind faith in Honda is the only way!!!! Stay true to the brand!
02-10-2009, 06:24 PM
#1918
6G TLX-S
Car buyers are no fool these days. The "larger" 3.7L-V6 engine only has a mere 19 hp and 19 lb-ft increase over the 3.5L-V6. Other RWD car makers may be able to get away with that increase with a 2WD (=RWD) sedan, but Acura has no such luck with the all FWD sedan line-up. To make things worse, this lame "larger" engine is coupled to the even heavier TL-SH-AWD with the power-robbing AWD hardware, which totally cancels out the power boost.
The larger option engine must have at least 40+ more hp and 40+ lb-ft more torque than the base engine to cut it, more so when coupled to AWD hardware. The only way to do it is through force-induction (3.7L-V6 twin-turbo DI) or through larger engine displacement (4L-V8), just like all other true recognized luxury car makers on earth.
The larger option engine must have at least 40+ more hp and 40+ lb-ft more torque than the base engine to cut it, more so when coupled to AWD hardware. The only way to do it is through force-induction (3.7L-V6 twin-turbo DI) or through larger engine displacement (4L-V8), just like all other true recognized luxury car makers on earth.
02-10-2009, 10:25 PM
#1919
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The 3.0L is actually heavier than the 3.5 so that should really be a non issue. And its simply better business to use an engine already being made.
This repositioning should have begun with the 09 TSX and 09 TL. We'll now have to wait through another 5 year product cycle to see the final result.
But I'm still looking forward to test driving a V6 TSX. I've been waiting 6 long years.
This repositioning should have begun with the 09 TSX and 09 TL. We'll now have to wait through another 5 year product cycle to see the final result.
But I'm still looking forward to test driving a V6 TSX. I've been waiting 6 long years.
02-10-2009, 10:34 PM
#1920
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The "upmarket engine" of the TL is the same speed as the base engine. Aside from that fact the upmarket engine is not a V8.
A LOT of luxury sedans have less power than V6 family sedans. Some might complain about a J30 TSX, but it would still be more powerful than entry level 3 series, IS, C class, and A4. The point isn't for the TSX to be most powerful sedan ever produced. The point is having some sort of order in the Acura lineup. Since the TSX and TL are just about the same price, the V6 TSX should have been less powerful than the Base TL. With them having the same power in the same price bracket people are obviously going to choose the better looking slightly cheaper TSX V6.
VCM would have been a good idea for differentiating the TSX and TL. If the TSX V6 used the torquey J35Z4, VCM's "lack of torque" would be a non issue. The J35Z4 produces 250hp, which would be less than TL, but still highly competitive. Not only would it be competitive from a performance standpoint, but it would also be efficient.
The TL can't move much further "up" without FI or a small V8. If that were to happen (in the form of a Type S), this move might make sense, but in the near term, TL sales are dying because of the design and this will be the final nail in the coffin. The TSX is less profitable than the TL which is pretty bad news for Honda/Acura, IMO.
Haha, and you're right about TOV, but it can't be that bad anymore since Cj has been banned lol.
A LOT of luxury sedans have less power than V6 family sedans. Some might complain about a J30 TSX, but it would still be more powerful than entry level 3 series, IS, C class, and A4. The point isn't for the TSX to be most powerful sedan ever produced. The point is having some sort of order in the Acura lineup. Since the TSX and TL are just about the same price, the V6 TSX should have been less powerful than the Base TL. With them having the same power in the same price bracket people are obviously going to choose the better looking slightly cheaper TSX V6.
VCM would have been a good idea for differentiating the TSX and TL. If the TSX V6 used the torquey J35Z4, VCM's "lack of torque" would be a non issue. The J35Z4 produces 250hp, which would be less than TL, but still highly competitive. Not only would it be competitive from a performance standpoint, but it would also be efficient.
The TL can't move much further "up" without FI or a small V8. If that were to happen (in the form of a Type S), this move might make sense, but in the near term, TL sales are dying because of the design and this will be the final nail in the coffin. The TSX is less profitable than the TL which is pretty bad news for Honda/Acura, IMO.
Haha, and you're right about TOV, but it can't be that bad anymore since Cj has been banned lol.
I agree, there may possibly be some overlapping in terms of pricing, it would be interesting to see how they will work that out. However, it's also true that some consumers tend to buy cars based on the size. For instance, if one were looking for a compact sedan like the Civic, it's rare that he or she would buy the Accord instead. I mean afterall, a loaded Civic is as expensive as a base Accord (well I believe that's the case in Canada).
Lol, I'm not sure if others can agree on "lack of torque" shouldn't be a matter on the Accord's 3.5L engine.
Anyways, my whole point is that, satisfying everyone and making a profit at the same time is not easy. Perhaps it might be a good idea to have the current K24 as the base engine, then K23T for the middle one, and J35 for the top of the line model.
Btw, can you even go into TOV now?