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Price up to match Mercedes and BMW? I'm not sure that argument works any more. BMW and Mercedes are getting a huge boost from cars starting at under $30K. --They are selling tons of CLAs, GLAs, 1-series, 2-series, X1's, etc. Those cars are the main reason for their dramatic increases in sales in the last few years.
why doesn't it work?
People are willing to choose a 35k 320 with no HID, No leather seat, no heated seat, not even auto seat, you are lucky it still has AC and auto window, over an TLX with LED, leather, more powerful engine with Paws, sunroof and whatever other things TLX has?
or a 35k 225 with absolutely NOTHING over a fully loaded ILX?
What is not working? If anything i think it has widen the gap, when a stripper base model can outsell the best that Acura can offer for the same price.
also you might want to check the sales #, because i believe 3/4 series are still the king in sales within BMW, not 1 (dead) or 2 or x1.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 10-02-2015 at 07:04 PM.
I'm not comparing Mercedes and BMW to Acura...you are. I compared them to Audi.
Your statement that Mercedes and BMW start in a much higher price range is no longer true. And that is the only thing I said. Make it about performance -- and you are changing the subject. I acknowledged earlier that Acura needs work in that area.
The bottom line is, with less than half the models of Audi, Acura's business model is working by matching Audi's sales numbers. That is the measure of a business model.
And that is the question that this whole thing started with from you.
That is because Audi is not really competing with Acura. Their primary competitors are BMW and Mercedes,,, maybe to certain extend, Lexus.
My first post....
if you somehow think Audi cares they have similar sales # as Acura, then i dont know what to tell you. Because they don't care.
and i do not understand what is so good about having similar sales # as Audi? when Audi is clearly in a different league.. losing yes.. but at least they are losing in a different league.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 10-02-2015 at 07:12 PM.
I have seen recent public statements from VW and Audi, being dumbfounded about their U.S. sales numbers being so low. They care.
And they are about to be more dumbfounded after pulling a Tom Brady with their diesel emissions numbers.
the TDI issue is a different subject.
Of course they care about sales #, that is why they are in the business. But they do not care if ACURA has similar sales # as them.
Do you think Lexus cares that Honda sells more cars than them? No
Do you think Lexus cares if BMW sells more 5 series than GS? Yes.
To circle back to Audi:
apply everything i said about BMW and Merc to A3/A4 or A-whatever. They sell the same #s of cars as Acura at a higher price on average with less equipment. They are still winning.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 10-02-2015 at 07:20 PM.
Of course they care about sales #, that is why they are in the business. But they do not care if ACURA has similar sales # as them.
Do you think Lexus cares that Honda sells more cars than them? No
Do you think Lexus cares if BMW sells more 5 series than GS? Yes.
Interesting. The TDI thing -- which affects sales and image -- is a different subject?
Performance is also different subject in much the same way.
The measure of a business model is sales. You can't have it both ways: You measure sales alone or you include everything related to image: business standards, performance and ethics.
As a business model it is working for Acura as well as it is for Audi.
I'll say it again: Acura needs work in performance (still some in design), these days. Audi needs work in image and ethics.
Last edited by Boulder TSX; 10-02-2015 at 07:26 PM.
Once again, (if you will acknowledge your first statement), you asked if it was working for Acura.
I responded that sales# (the measure these companies use first and foremost) would say yes. Similar sales #s as Audi.
And I also said that Acura needs to work on performance. Seems like you missed that.
I did not miss that.
But Audi is not doing well in sales #s compared to its competitors.
So what makes you think that business model is working for Acura?
Acura's old business model, performance oriented, simplicity, offer more without shortcut for less $$
Acura's current business model, Milking the old perception it has built in the past 30 years, boring, seems like it offers more for less but in reality everything it offers is at least 1 generation behind everyone.
and really not much less than everyone.
not only that Acura's target group has shifted as well... it used to be cool to drive an Acura in any age, teens, 20s. i am not even sure if 18 years olds know what Acura is now.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 10-02-2015 at 07:43 PM.
If I understand what you're asking, (how is Audi's low sales #s vs. MB and BMW -- a sign that Acura is succeeding w/similar sales) -- that's a good question. It goes to the point that most people are shocked to see the numbers. (Both that Audi's are low and Acura's are high enough to compete with Audi. The image is the opposite.) But in truth, the luxury car market is warped by SUVs. Audi, Lexus and Acura's bestselling models are SUVs now.
As for performance, none of this is static and things change constantly. Audis generally perform well now, but before 2009, they were not always better performers than Acuras:
But Acura lost it in about 2009, when they ruined their designs and stagnated in engine technology, while Audi and others went to DI turbo engines and improved their designs.
Acura has improved their designs in some of their cars. DI turbo engines are on the way. If they fill in the blanks with proper brakes, suspensions, etc. to handle the new power, their performance & image should improve.
We'll see about sales. The U.S. is a tough market to figure. (Audi is actually competitive with MB and BMW in worldwide sales.)
Last edited by Boulder TSX; 10-02-2015 at 07:59 PM.
i dont know about most people are shocked to see the numbers. I and many people here always knew about Audi's status in the US.
and I am also aware of Audi's presence in other countries since Audi were like the 3 series in China. they were literally more common in China than the Camry in the US.
But we were talking about Audi in the US. They have not overcome their past perceptions, Tier 1 cars but people just dont buy them like the other 2.
Acura is on the opposite end, they had good history and perceptions but they are losing it year by year.
But regardless what the sales #s are between Audi and Acura, Audi has no problem selling a $60k+ sedan, again not as many as the other 2 but its ability (perception) to sell premium sedan is world ahead of Acura.
The business models may seem different, but ironically, Audi is the only German manufacturer to use something Lexus, Acura and Infiniti use: sharing platforms with mainstream sedans and economy cars for many of their bestselling vehicles.
That's a business model Audi shares with Lexus & Acura, but not Mercedes and BMW.
If Audi is competing with BMW and Mercedes in this country, they are failing miserably, with roughly half the sales of each, and sales similar to Acura. Their sales will likely take another hit in the future, with the VAG diesel scandal.
On paper, the business model of Audi and of Acura may seem similar. But in reality, it's not.
The key words are "vehicle reliability".
It is a well known fact that the VW reliability is utterly poor, in sharp contract to the much better reliability (when compared to VW) as offered on Audi vehicles.
A big chunk of the premium pricing on Audi vehicles goes to the much improved reliability.
Therefore, the cheap, economy brand VW has poor reliability, and the expensive, luxury brand Audi has better reliability.
On the other hand, both Honda and Acura products enjoy the exact same top notch Japanese reliability, and so in many cases, some Acura models are competing with the comparable, but much cheaper Honda counterparts, such as Civic/ILX, Accord/FWD-TLX, Pilot/MDX, CR-V/RDX.
i dont know about most people are shocked to see the numbers. I and many people here always knew about Audi's status in the US.
and I am also aware of Audi's presence in other countries since Audi were like the 3 series in China. they were literally more common in China than the Camry in the US.
But we were talking about Audi in the US. They have not overcome their past perceptions, Tier 1 cars but people just dont buy them like the other 2.
Acura is on the opposite end, they had good history and perceptions but they are losing it year by year.
But regardless what the sales #s are between Audi and Acura, Audi has no problem selling a $60k+ sedan, again not as many as the other 2 but its ability (perception) to sell premium sedan is world ahead of Acura.
Acura was selling $40K luxury cars 20+ years ago, (Legend Coupe), which equates to a $60K car now. (Legend coupe.) Ten years ago, the Audi A4 was a middle of the road sports sedan that was getting trounced by the Acura TSX in reviews. As I said earlier, things are changing constantly.
Lets see where they both are in 2-3 years. Acura will have the direct Injection turbo engines that Audi resurrected itself with. And Audi will have dealt with the diesel scandal, which will be a huge financial drain on the company going forward.
Audi is already showing signs that they are no longer style leaders, taking recent criticism for mildly updating their 2016-17 vehicles from designs that have existed since 2008. Things might change again.
Last edited by Boulder TSX; 10-03-2015 at 03:12 AM.
Acura was selling $40K luxury cars 20+ years ago, (Legend Coupe), which equates to a $60K car now. (Legend coupe.) Ten years ago, the Audi A4 was a middle of the road sports sedan that was getting trounced by the Acura TSX in reviews. As I said earlier, things are changing constantly.
Lets see where they both are in 2-3 years. Acura will have the direct Injection turbo engines that Audi resurrected itself with. And Audi will have dealt with the diesel scandal, which will be a huge financial drain on the company going forward.
Audi is already showing signs that they are no longer style leaders, taking recent criticism for mildly updating their 2016-17 vehicles from designs that have existed since 2008. Things might change again.
I just don't see it. While I agree Audi has not changed enough from a design standpoint, I have never felt like they need to. They are just so much better looking inside and out, are faster, and are nearly as reliable as the modern Acura. The only thing keeping me from going out and buying one is the price to fix those things. I don't think my wife will ever be talked into buying another one.
I just don't see it. While I agree Audi has not changed enough from a design standpoint, I have never felt like they need to. They are just so much better looking inside and out, are faster, and are nearly as reliable as the modern Acura. The only thing keeping me from going out and buying one is the price to fix those things. I don't think my wife will ever be talked into buying another one.
Most people didn't see Audi improving so much either. They had lackluster designs less than 10 years ago. (Do you recall the A4? Beautiful is not a word that comes to mind.) They were also slower than the most Acuras of that era. They dramatically improved their engines and their designs in 2009.
Again, things have changed. And they will again. Acura's turbo direct injection engines (the main reason for Audi's performance gains in 2009) are coming next year.
As for reliability, one recently improved JD Power study of 1-3 year old cars for Audi does not mean anything. We will see how reliable all VW/Audi vehicles are after they appear on such lists for over 10 years running, rather than 1 or 2 years. Will they ever have bulletproof reliability after 3 years of ownership? -- As Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura do.
Last edited by Boulder TSX; 10-05-2015 at 03:06 PM.
Most people didn't see Audi improving so much either. They had lackluster designs less than 10 years ago. (Do you recall the A4? Beautiful is not a word that comes to mind.) They were also slower than the most Acuras of that era. They dramatically improved their engines and their designs in 2009.
Again, things have changed. And they will again. Acura's turbo direct injection engines (the main reason for Audi's performance gains in 2009) are coming next year.
As for reliability, one recently improved JD Power study of 1-3 year old cars for Audi does not mean anything. We will see how reliable all VW/Audi vehicles are after they appear on such lists for over 10 years running, rather than 1 or 2 years. Will they ever have bulletproof reliability after 3 years of ownership? -- As Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura do.
Given the number of recalls hitting all manufacturers over the last few years, I don't think anyone can claim "bulletproof reliability" these days.
You expect high tech, high power, high performance, more features, more gears in transmission and you also expect bulletproof reliability?
use some common sense.
You want reliability? get the base base model Civic and Accord or Camry.
Even the base models of modern cars have a ton of tech that you could only find on high-end lux cars in the past (bluetooth, HIDs, power-everything, more computers than the Space Shuttle, etc.). I don't think it's overstatement to suggest that the days of the home mechanic and the simple (bulletproof) car are gone.
my 06 accord does not have anything other than power windows It even has an oil stick!
I must admit, I do miss the presence of a manual oil dipstick since my move to BMWs.
I walked by a 2015 Accord Coupe today; the thing had cameras in the side mirrors. I'm guessing if one of those breaks, it won't be possible to simply replace the camera; the whole mirror assembly will likely require replacement. I thought to myself - Well, gone are the days when the Accord could be counted on to not have a lot of breakable crap on it.
It used to be a 10 sec procedure. Now i have to wait (without moving) for about 2 minutes (after the car is warm) just to measure how much oil i have left.
That particular technology is definitely going backward in efficiency. and i really question its accuracy as well.
It used to be a 10 sec procedure. Now i have to wait (without moving) for about 2 minutes (after the car is warm) just to measure how much oil i have left.
That particular technology is definitely going backward in efficiency. and i really question its accuracy as well.
There is always that "auto idle stop" disable button near the column of gear selection buttons.
Originally Posted by fsttyms1
Which in many cases should be defaulted off and up to the person to turn it on if they so choose to and not the other way around.
Even my grandmother hates the auto-stop in her S550. First thing she does is put it in sport mode to disable all the Eco stuff, and she'll be 80 this month
with the current higher end cars, i really do not think that long term reliability was their priority.
i am still confused how the Auto/Stop features on all the new cars will not cause extra wear and tear on the engine.
Jeep has ASS but I have a lifetime warranty on the powertrain. If the engine takes a dump at 150k, I get a new one fo' free.
It does save some fuel but not a ton. If I'm in a car that doesn't have it, it feels weird to have the engine run while stopped. Seems like a waste to me. I turn it off while towing because I don't want any rollback with that. It solves the stop and go traffic problem on its own in that it doesn't re-enable until you've gone above 5mph. So if you're just creeping along, it won't turn off automatically again.
In any case, the cars with ASS come with more robust batteries, starters, and flywheels that are rated for many more actuations than other models. Also the system automatically shuts off while the cabin is heating/cooling, if the charge level is low, if the engine is cold, if the engine oil is hot, if the outside temp is cold, etc...it does a lot to ensure it doesn't grenade itself. Oil isn't a big deal because the engine isn't off long enough for the oil to drip off components as what happens when you park it for several hours.
Hybrid cars have been doing the ASS thing for many years now without failure, not sure why this would be any different. I'm not worried about anything going wrong and I hope I don't have to eat my words but I guess we'll see.
Here's some light reading on the system that FCA uses on their cars (including my Jeep):
In any case, the cars with ASS come with more robust batteries, starters, and flywheels that are rated for many more actuations than other models
Also from my understanding, you actually waste more gas from shutting on/off the engine than idling for a short while.
I actually verified this myself the other day. MY AC shuts off, or at least partially shuts off in Eco pro mode/in ASS mode.
I am not sure about the Cold temp since we do not have such thing here. So the ASS is ALWAYS on unless you turn it off.
I believe Hybrid cars are different, at least on the Prius. The ASSS is actually connected to the battery rather than Engine. So ASS really does not affect the engine as much as on the regular gas cars.
and lastly, BMW already admitted ASS will cause additional wear and tear (I personally don't mind )
See here
Acura is prepping an update for the TLX, and new spy shots catch a heavily camouflaged example doing hot-weather testing.
This TLX’s body covering is quite effective at hiding many of the changes, but a few of them are easy to spot. For example, the sedan now wears a mesh grille with the brand emblem in the center instead of the current silver shield. The new design element takes clear inspiration from the Acura Precision Concept. The headlights also appear larger than the narrow Jewel Eye LEDS on the present model. The camouflage at the back does an even better job of obscuring the updates, but tweaked taillights seem to be among the upgrades. We don’t know anything about interior improvements yet, but the usual work on the driver tech and material quality is likely.
The 2018 TLX probably continues to use a 2.4-liter four-cylinder and a 3.5-liter V6. Acura might tweak the powerplants’ output and fuel efficiency, though. Another possibility is the addition of a hybrid model. For example, the refreshed 2017 MDXreceived a 3.0-liter V6 with three electric motors that has a total output of 325 horsepower.
Acura unveiled the current TLX as a barely disguised concept at the 2014 North American International Auto Show. The company positioned the model has a replacement for both the TSX and larger TL in its lineup.
10-02-2015 | 06:57 PM
Even my grandmother hates the auto-stop in her S550. First thing she does is put it in sport mode to disable all the Eco stuff, and she'll be 80 this month 
) 
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