ostrich

But no spectacular advertising campaign can save that absolutely horrendous looking 2009 RL though.... sigh.....

GreenMonster

Advertising is good, but it's got to start with the product... you't can't polish a turd...

Altho' I will admit that when Acura had a decent product (ala CLS) they marketed it to the wrong demographic... Marketing just sucked back then, and isn't really that better now... I guess if you're into the whole tech gadget thing, then maybe the "Acura Advance" campaign works for you, but it seems lame to me... Keep you're friggen gadgets and give me more sport dedicated designs...

LuvMyTSX

Not good enough IMO. They need a completely new ad agency. Honda and Acura's ads have more than sucked for the past few years and I think they need a totally fresh start with a different company. The fact that this guy has worked with Hyundai also does nothing for me. Hyundai's ads are the most irritating I have ever seen. I can only hope that Honda and Acura don't put out ads like those. They need to be more like Lexus and MB and show off the cache of the brand and catch some attention. It's not rocket science!

dom

Unless the marketing agency has some say over product....

I don't see this helping...

GreenMonster

Right... you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig

mrdeeno

JediMindTricks

well, i'm glad they realize they have a problem, and it's about time they did something.

but marketing can only do so much.

Moog-Type-S

True...but it's a step forward.
Acura car commercials have always been subpar compared to BMW, Audi, Lexus, MB.

...and the way Acura markets their vehicles is out in "left field".

chirik

Sorry, I expect nothing but failure with those ugly models they pushing. I like the current TL/TSX models which should've been offered in RWD and AWD platform and completely hate the RL except interior.

What Acura MUST have is an innovative and practical design and offer both RWD and AWD as Infiniti, BMW, MB do today. And most important to make NEW ENGINE with DOHC, DI (direct injection) and NOT OBSOLETE SOHC BS with still timing rubber belt

NauTiC*

Bigger flagship, more options, and a better lineup... I want my 300hp, RWD coupe!

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I think better marketing will help Acura for sure. For an expensive car like the RL, if you don't establish the brand properly, you won't get sale, even if it's a good car. And indeed, it is a great car, there are reasons why it won Car of the Year in Japan. What it lacks are choices, one drivetrain, one engine, few options aren't going to cut it.

SH-AWD is an amazing technology, and it's good enough to shame many AWD systems from other luxury brands. Yet Honda/Acura failed to advertise it. Go out there and ask how many people know what the SH-AWD or RL is. See how many actually know what that is.

As for direct injection, someone over at temple of vtec made a very good post about why Honda is not using that technology for its petrol engines. Here is a link to it:

http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...item_id=615794

In short, DI is

- dirtier (much more NOx as well as particulate matter in ultra-lean burn mode)
- more complex (best system is the one that provides the desired results being the simplest and cheapest one)
- Honda can achieve similar or better results with much simpler solutions (1st gen Stream had DI, but was later replaced by R20 engine and obtained better acceleration and fuel economy)
- offers no REAL WORLD benefits over any similar Honda engine (most DI engines cheat on the fuel economy standards, because they're specially adapted to work in ultra-lean burn mode in those conditions, but that offer much less than promised in real-world configurations, ie, IS350 (has DI) returns 19.5mpg combined, while TL-S (no DI) returns 19.2mpg combined, G35 (no DI) returns 17.4mpg in comparison, all numbers from Road and Track comparison test)
- Honda is always working on everything from an engine development point of view. As for now, Honda does not want to rely on Bosch to make the injectors (almost everyone uses Bosch's injectors, which is costly, and it means the development pace depends on Bosch, not the car maker itself)

As for RWD goes, Honda is not as large as Toyota or Nissan in terms of company size. Toyota and Nissan have tons of platforms, FWD, RWD, AWD in which they can use. For instance, the IS250/IS350 is based on the GS platform, which ultimately, is based on the Toyota Crown platform (one variation, the Crown Comfort, is used as taxi in Hong Kong that runs on propane and makes 79hp). These companies don't have to spend much to make a RWD platform dedicated for its luxury brand, they have platforms they can use.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^ But the problem is that other car makers which utilizes DI technology is catching up or some even overtake Honda in terms of hp/litre. Honda used to be the best engine maker in the world, churning out engines whose hp output was unmatchable by other competitors having the same number of cylinders and engine displacement.

Now instead of cranking up more engine output through DI technology, Honda resorts to increase engine displacements, thereby virtually admitting defect in the hp/litre race which made Honda so famous.

I don't understand the "no REAL WORLD benefits" claims. All other car makers are seeing a huge jump in hp outputs simply by switching to DI technology using the same engine and same displacement. I don't see how a hugh increase in engine power is "no REAL WORLD benefit". DI seems to be the greatest technology to boost hp without an increase in engine displacement.

So fuel economy is a problem ? Honda is the best engine builder in the world, pioneering lots of engine technologies. So don't tell me that Honda can't fix the fuel economy problem with gadgets like CVT, cylinder deactivation, etc. when utilizing DI technology. It just a matter of wanting to do it or not.

I believe this is all about face. Honda, being the best engine builder, has it's own pride. It wants to be first, it wants to do things differently. DI is one that isn't Honda's first. So Honda is making excuses try not to follow others adopting DI.

But as history shows that sooner or later, Honda will eventually utilize DI by giving it a different name. It discounted V6 engines, but had to rush one it in the 5th gen. Accord. It discounted V8 and RWD and the RL flopped big time. The next gen. RL will have both.

The Dougler

iTrader: (1)

they should have made this move 20 years ago, I can only think of 1 Acura commercial that was worth a damn.
it's the "Engineering is our Art" on, it's on youtube but something sucks right now and embedding is not working.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Well I don't think the J series has ever been famous for its hp/L. Honda engines that emphasize on hp/L are the Type R and S2k engines. Other engines aren't really built for hp/L from the very beginning. The reason behind that is, the J series is mainly for the North American market, where torque matters to a lot of people. Simply building the highest hp/L engine doesn't really help sales. In that regard, DI does improve torque/L, which is a good thing. I wasn't saying DI is necessary a bad idea, it's just that Honda does not see its benefits over other designs. I simply stated reasons why Honda does not use DI, not saying if Honda is/was making the right decision.

What Honda is famous for, besides making some high hp/L engines, is that they are also reliable as hell, they sound great, and they meet the newest emission standards all the time. If they switch to DI, then it's possible that they can't meet the most stringent emission standards, which would be shameful to Honda. Remember, in ultra-lean burn mode, there's more particulate matter and NOx.

Typically, you'd see about 8-13% of improved power/torque/fuel economy with DI. However, take a look at the FSI engines from VW, seems like Honda SOHC VTEC design can match, if not better than those engines.

I guess you can say that Honda's technologies aren't really compatible with DI, at least for the time being. As for other manufacturers, they have a lot of experience with DI for a long long time, DI doesn't come out in one night, just like VTEC. It takes a lot of time to develop, improve, test, etc. European car makers have long been using DI technologies in their diesel engines, and Toyota and Mitsubishi also have extensive research experience with DI. With that said, the technology still mainly relies on Bosch, which is actually the company that supplies these injectors. That means the development pace is limited by Bosch, and it's harder to have an edge against your competition.

Also with DI, like I've said before, it's very complex, much more so than VTEC. Besides those injectors being expensive, EGR, variable timing stuff, etc must be tuned carefully, otherwise you won't get the desired results. And Honda does not have that kind of experience nor money nor time to do that. Again, Honda is a small company compared to other car makers. The fact that it's still a standalone company is amazing.

Again, Honda has tried the DI method before, with the first generation Steam, but Honda later developed the R20 engine, which is even better than the original DI engine. So who knows, may be Honda IS working on DI to work with its engines, but as for now, may be it's not ready yet?

Edward'TLS

^^^^^ I agree with most of what you said.

But my point is that Honda used to be the hp benchmark in normally-aspirated engine outputs for North American production cars, like

-- the 160hp B16A3 1.6L-I4 first used on the Del Sol,
-- the 200hp B18C5 1.8L-I4 first used on the Integra Type-R,
-- the 270hp C30A 3L-V6 and the 290hp C32B 3.2L-V6 first used on the NSX,
-- the 240hp J30A4 3L-V6 first used on the Accord,
-- the 260hp J32A2 3.2L-V6 first used on the TL-S.

Honda is still holding tight to the small displacement I4 and hand-built NSX V6 engine benchmarks, but other car makers, with DI and FSI technologies, have now caught up or even surpassed Honda in the V6 engine outputs. See below,

----------------------------------------------------
-- '08 TL : 258hp 3.2L-V6

-- '07 A6 : 255hp 3.2L-V6 with FSI
----------------------------------------------------
-- '08 RL : 290hp 3.5L-V6

-- '07 I350 : 306hp 3.5L-V6
-- '08 G35 : 306hp 3.5L-V6
-- '08 CTS : 304hp 3.6L-V6 with DI
----------------------------------------------------
-- '09 RL : 300hp 3.7L-V6

-- '08 CTS : 304hp 3.6L-V6 with DI
-- '08 G37 : 330hp 3.7L-V6
----------------------------------------------------

Note that Honda is now falling behind the competitors in 3.5L-V6 and 3.7L-V6 engine outputs. It appears that Honda is stagnant in the new engine technology area for the past few years, in contrast to what it was famous for.

The only viable solution I can think of is DI or FSI, which the competitors have well demonstrated, to win back the past glorious days of being the world's best engine builder.

TSX69

Got this email today:



Dear Owner Link Customer,

As a valued customer, we have some very exciting news to share with you.

We are launching a redesigned version of Owner Link® just for Acura owners, called My Acura. By separating the Acura and Honda owner sites, we hope to give you a more customized ownership experience.

As a registered Owner Link member, you can continue to use your existing username and password at www.owners.acura.com to access all of your Acura information on the new My Acura site.

You will continue to get all the great Owner Link features in a sleek, new design, with a customized ownership experience and easier access to the features you want most. In addition, there will be expanded model information with more interactive "how to" features.


Your Honda information will still be on Owner Link with the same convenient experience you've come to depend on. And if you're financing a vehicle other than a Honda or Acura, you can continue to manage it on Owner Link.

Stay tuned for an email announcing the My Acura launch. We hope you enjoy the new site!

Best Regards,
The Owner Link Team

fsttyms1

You have to have a product to be able to sell

Moog-Type-S

try normal black text

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

I think they have gotten better at ads this new MDX one I think is really good attacking the other car companys.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hNeQhTkc4S8&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hNeQhTkc4S8&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNeQhTkc4S8

dom

That ad agency has their work cut out for them.

BENDER08

i got the same thing

Ralphie917

x4

MaFreCoLa

Actually, a couple months ago, I was part of a focus group that asked how we felt about the new "My Acura" site.

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

This isnt new at all I have been signed up with that site for over a year.

Moog-Type-S

Too bad you didn't tell them to forget the website and start focusing on good car designs and powertrains.

LuvMyTSX

They are re-doing it to make it different from Honda. Right now when you log in, it looks the same whether you own an Accord or an RL. When they're done, Acura will have a different looking owner site than Honda.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea, I understand where you are coming from. But also keep in mind, those other engines you mentioned, such as the VQ35HR, the 2GR-FSE, and the CTS engine are very new. The 2GR-FSE in particular, is a brand new engine, new design from scratch. The VQ is amazing in output, but it doesn't have DI, and its fuel economy is worse than J35 by quite a margin (talking about more than 10% in real world).

As for now, I believe the hp/L for K20, K24, F22 are still pretty good. Yea, it loses a bit in terms of its V6 engines, but the fuel economy is still very competitive. Also note that Honda has yet to apply its i-vtec ( I can't remember if he new Accord V6 has that or not) or A-VTEC, and all I know is that A-VTEC is coming shortly. Honda claimed that A-VTEC would improve power/torque/fuel economy by about 13%. Of course we need to wait for testing before we can draw any conclusion.

The thing is, all the other makers are improving quickly, some examples are the IS went from 215hp to 306hp and the Camry went from less than 200 to 268hp. I think that's one of the reasons why people think Honda is stagnant in terms of engine design.

Again, it would take a lot of time to design a DI engine. European car makers and Toyota have extensive experience with DI. GM can easily obtain technology from its subsidiary such as Opel. I'm not against DI at all, but seems like Honda has other solutions that are being tested. And I'm sure when the design/engineering team was doing their pugh chart, they had thought about DI.

Costco

Direct injection is the next step in fuel injection systems. I'm pretty sure back when they used throttle body injection manufacturers were thinking TBI is much cheaper and simpler (which it is) than port injection but as we can see, port injection is pretty much universal in gasoline engines these days. It wouldn't necessarily be dumb for Honda to not go DI, but why wouldn't they? I have a strong feeling that several years from now port injection will be phased out market-wide in favor of direct injection. Hell, its happening now with all those companies mentioned.... Mazda, Toyota, GM, Nissan, Audi, BMW and potentially Ford, even Kia!

Just because it runs in ultra lean mode that doesn't mean its cheating. Thats only a plus because it so happens that the DI engine can uniquely utilize that advantage, so why not? That's like saying engines with cylinder shutoff/deactivation (which Honda uses) is 'cheating'. That reminds me of people who say cars with LSx engines cheat to get decent gas mileage because they have ultra-tall 5th and 6th gears.

Since Honda knows so much about engine building and engineering, imagine how great their engines would be with DI. More power and even better fuel economy than other engines with DI. The J-series is great but Honda isn't doing enough to keep it competitive like Nissan's done with the VQ. Nissan pretty much puts it in EVERYTHING and it works because there are so many versions of it. Don't get me wrong, the J-series is still a great engine, smooth but in terms of specific output its losing the battle.

All Honda could get out of the 2.3 K23 was 240 hp and 260 lb/ft with mileage figures similar to 3.5 V6s. Here's a hint, Honda.... spend less money on R&D for your portable generators and spend more on engine development. And market your heart out, Acura. But a soiled pair of boxers flipped inside out is still a soiled pair of boxers... good luck convincing me to try them on. Take lessons from Hyundai and Kia with the 4.6 Tau V8, and the 2.0 direct-injection turbo-4 pumping out 290 hp and 290 lb/ft.

I know I sound like a troll, but there aren't many positive things to say about Acura at this current point in time. Things are looking grim for the RL and TSX.... no sign of a CL, god knows when the NSX will even be made, and may they have mercy on the TL.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea, again, let me reiterate that, me or the other guy who made that posting at TOV, is not saying that DI is bad or anything. Obviously, if it's bad, other companies would not use it.

Yea, using ultra lean mode of course is not cheating, but the problem is, how often the engine is actually in that mode in REAL DRIVING. For IS350, in the road and track comparison, IS350 with DI obtained 19.5mpg, which is 0.3mpg better than the TL-S. The G35 on the other hand achieved only 17.5mpg. Keep in mind though, that the TL-S 6MT is less fuel efficient than the TL-S 5AT, meaning that the AT is on par, if not better than IS350's fuel economy by a little bit. Of course what the IS350 shines is its power output. However, that's a brand new engine design, compared with the old J series. The VQ is an old design too, and it shows in its fuel economy figure. 2mpg is a lot, more than 10%. Besides, the J series is only a simple SOHC VTEC design. There are still other things Honda can do besides DI, such as DOHC, i-vtec (if not a-vtec) to that engine, or simply design a new engine with that (of course it's best if they can somehow incorporate DI in it too, without being environmentally unfriendly).

As for the K23 turbo engine, keep in mind that the CX7's 2.3L DI turbo engine is getting even worse mpg, as shown by Car and Driver in real world driving, while making less torque, but 4 more hp. Besides, Honda has never been a turbo expert (well, except during the F1 era when 1500cc turbo engines with like 1500hp were produced).

Edward'TLS

It's not what people thinking. It is what people seeing. The last time that Honda works magic was the 3L-V6 for the Accord. A simple change in tuning increased hp output from 200 to 240.

Those days are over. No more clever engine gadgets for the sales leader 3.2L-V6 (TL) and 3.5L-V6 (RL). Rather than tuning them for more hp output, Honda resorts to increase the engine displacement (TL->TL-S and '07RL->'08RL) in order to catch up with the competitors. Virtually all car makers know how to add displacement to increase horsepowers; this is no rocket science. Besides, the Acura 3.7L-V6 is not even up to par with the competitors.

If this doesn't show Honda is stagnant in engine design, I don't know what does. Maybe Honda is now more focused on jet engine design than car engine design.

Edward'TLS

I agree. It's not fair to compare force-induction engines. That's why I discuss only on normally-aspirated engines. With force-induction, cranking up a few"pa" (turbo boost) will increase 20-40hp. So it is more difficult to compare turbo-charged or super-charged engines.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I believe the 3.5L engine went from 240hp (from MDX) to 300hp in the RL. You can argue that they didn't improve on the 3.5L since the RL. However, as for the TL-S case, keep in mind the 3.5L engine is actually lighter than the 3.2L engine. More displacement, more torque, same mpg, less weight, less development cost, those reasons to me are enough to justify why the TL-S went the 3.5L route. Also remember how a lot of people say the 3.2L engine lacks torque compared to the VQ, with 3.5L, problem is solved. In the 08RL, the engine is from the MDX, however, with a slight change, and I believe that change is VTEC also at the exhaust side (the MDX's J37A only has VTEC on the intake side). Yet, Honda claims the same hp, and less torque on the new engine, I suspect it's underrated, as Honda has been doing that lately with its AP2 S2k (243whp), TL-S (253whp), AV6 (240whp), Civic Si (180whp), etc.

Edward'TLS

When the 3.5L went up to 300hp, Honda was only playing catch up with Toyota and Nissan whose 3.5L is already over 300hp. Given Honda's leading expertise in engine building, a 330-350hp 3.5L will be considered as progress.

Like I said before, the Honda 3L-V6 is still the leader in hp at 244. I wish Honda can do the same for the 3.5L and the 3.7L, rather than cutting corners by going to the larger displacement solution.

Costco

Never said that anyone else said it was bad.... its just strange why they don't implement it at all. Sooner or later they'll use it, but they'll once again be behind compared to the other manufacturers.

Real driving, as in driving it as if you weren't a magazine editor testing out to feel for the limits of the car? I don't know about you but in real driving, I cruise a lot on the freeway... in fact, most of my mileage is highway. That would require little to no throttle input and thus less fuel, and an ultra lean mode would take full advantage of that.

A change to DOHC will increase power, but decrease torque and fuel economy.... at least that's generally what happens. I'm not sure if they have the capability to keep up with Nissan and Toyota if they make a DOHC V6. I'd love for them to prove me wrong but they have yet to show any significant progress. I have no idea why they don't implement i-VTEC or a-VTEC at the least.

Again, nothing wrong with the J-series. Its great for what it is, but in today's market its beginning to fall behind. And as for Acura's own marketing division, maybe they can get it through their thick skulls and stop underrated their engine outputs, if they're doing it right now. Most buyers won't know that the engine is underrated.... what they see is that the IS350 and G35 pump out 306 hp, while the TL-S produces 286.

Imagine if they did produce a DI turbocharged DOHC V6.... it would be impressive. Instead, they take the conservative approach. And even when they do produce something truly impressive, all of the Hondas and Acuras we truly lust for - the NSX-R, CTR sedan, DC5 ITR.... are never available to us.

DI is still a relatively new engine innovation, as least for most of these manufacturers. I'm sure that in time that DI will become very popular and they'll be able to engineer them to produce more pronounced improvements in power and fuel economy. The stratified charge is less prone to detonation so There are so many benefits to it, not just improved output and fuel economy. DI allows manufacturers to adjust the timing, spark and fuel injection more precisely depending on what the situation is. So they haven't taken full advantage of it yet, but wouldn't you agree that DI is the next logical step?

In the new CTS, GM's base non-DI 3.6 V6 makes 260 hp at the recommended 91 octane, while the DI 3.6 V6 makes 300 hp and gets slightly better mileage on 87 octane. Both of those V6s are from the same engine family, main difference being the DI.

Acura's new marketing division definitely has its work cut out for them, either way.

Fibonacci

The "New" RL is simply attrocious.

The '09 TSX is underwhelming.

Not holding out much hope for the TL - my best guess, it's a porker.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yes, they are slow in terms of developing i-vtec or DOHC to the J-series. For sure, 330-350 is feasible. They got 90hp/L almost 20 years ago. But for now, at least for the TL-S, it's not a bad idea to simply used the 3.5L engine, for the reasons I gave.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

haha, no no man, I think others are thinking that I think DI is bad, but indeed I'm not saying that. I was simply listing some disadvantages of using DI. Of course it has its own advantages and to a lot of car makers, the advantages are more than enough to compensate for its disadvantages.

Again, Honda DID use DI before in a gasoline engine. Namely, the 1st gen Honda Stream. It's just that Honda later developed the R20 engine, which is better in every way than the DI engine it replaced in terms of power, torque, and fuel economy.

For the real world driving part, what I meant is the fuel economy in actual driving. Let's use GDI as an example, Mitsubishi claimed GDI, compared to conventional engines, consumes 20-35% less fuel, and 10% more power. However, Mitsubishi Carisma GDI simply did not deliver the above in real world driving. Renault, when designing its own DI, found that it's because of the high-sulfur content fuel in Europe (150ppm vs 10-15ppm in Japan, keep in mind US is much higher than Europe). That high sulfur content destroyed the catalyst that is used to capture NOx. There Mitsubishi purposely set to much richer fuel/air mixture so that a normal catalyst could be used. This change was costly, while the Japanese Carisma could achieve 1:40 fuel to air mixture, its European sibling could only get 1:20, that's not a whole lot better than typical 1:14 in a conventional engine. Also, you made a good point, it depends on how you drive the car. DI is very sensitive to how hard you drive, more so than conventional engines. When the Japanese transportation department tested the Carisma, mostly light load operation was tested, this greatly benefited DI operation. However, in Europe, testing required higher load, higher speed, and thus the DI system did not have the chance to use the ultra lean burn mode. Of course technology has improved since then, and that's why you still see that the IS350 obtains the same mpg as TL-S, while making 20 more hp.

DOHC will decrease torque a bit, but I think if Honda would add in i-vtec, that shouldn't be too much of a problem...that is if only Honda would do it. A-Vtec on the other hand, we won't see that until next year apparently.

Yes, in marketing sense, underrating their engines by that much is kinda stupid...I don't know what they are thinking either....they are simply too conservative.

I agree, I hate it when they don't import the good cars here...not all car enthusiasts live in Japan...

I think, if I remember correctly (can't remember I read it), that Honda is working on HCCI, similar to what Mercedes is doing. I'm not sure about that. To manufacturers like Mitsubishi, Toyota, Nissan, and most, if not all European car makers, they are quite familiar with DI already, more than 10 years of experience.

You said it right, and I agree, DI would allow a lot of things to improve on power, torque and economy. Honda simply lacks the experience in DI technology though, and in the mean time, they are focusing on the a-vtec.

mrdeeno

Just to bring up a GENIUS example of Honda marketing, Honda already offers iVTEC on its V6 engines...it's the name for the V6 engine with cylinder deactivation on the Pilot, Odessey, etc.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

exactly, what kind of marketing is that? That's pure non-sense to me. I personally think SOHC VTEC w/ VCM sounds much better. But then, Audi does that with their Quattro too...so...

mrdeeno

yeah, but the difference is that even if the quattro system is different from car to car, it is basically the same thing...AWD. So people who don't know anything about cars will still know that "Quattro" is AWD, even though they have no idea it could be a different AWD system than their neighbor's "Quattro".

iVTEC in use as VCM and iVTEC as use in valve timing are completely different things. That would be like Audi using "quattro" on a 2wd car as the name for a stability control. I mean, didn't anyone at Honda even think not to use the iVTEC nomenclature for the VCM system since it was already used for a totally different system? Even a 10 year old will tell you that's stupid!