Edward'TLS

It is indeed a very bad move to drop the NSX from the current Acura line-up, and even more wrong not to put special attention to the release plan of the NSX successor. Take a good look at the new Audi supercar R8 - 420hp V8 6-speed AWD, and V10 in the work. No fancy hybrid, no nothing. Why does it take Acura so damn lo.....ng to build the image-boosting NSX successor ?

SpicyMikey

LOL, how many times have we heard that question asked (here and elsewhere)? We should have a whole section setup for that $1million question.

Seriously though, without trying to wake that sleeping giant of a question,, I share your frustration. I think it's reached the point of being embarassing. Can anyone over there make a decision about this car? I think three drunk retarded chimps could have gotten it done by now.

phile

^

And not only that, after the recent scare with the front engine, RWD concept as a replacement for the NSX, supposedly heads at Honda decided not to move forward with that plan due to the negative feedback it received. Instead, the NSX is once again on the drawing board.

Motohip

Funniest thing I've read today!!!!

fsttyms1

neuronbob

Hey, stop messing with my RL! I love it!

All it needs is a little more low-end torque and a whole heaping of marketing, and it'll be fine. Unfortunately, it's too little, too late for the 2G RL, it's a dud in the market even though it's an excellent car. Acura should have:

MARKETED the car
MARKETED A-Spec (which, in combo with 18" wheels, decent rubber, and SH-AWD, makes this car an awesome handler)
MARKETED SH-AWD, which is in some ways almost as good as RWD--I can do stooopid stuff in this car and live
Stolen the recipe for the Nissan VQ engine, which is a V6 with has gobs of low-end torque compared to the Honda J35

...but it's too late.

I am hopeful that the redo of the RL next year saves it, and that they make a no-holds barred RWD V8 sedan above the RL to attract that kind of buyer.

If Acura can't make a car to keep me in the fold by the time I'm ready to move on (another year or two), the Caddy CTS-V is waiting for me....and I'm willing to pay for that.

Moog-Type-S

@ "almost as good as RWD"

That's the problem Acura cuts themselves short.
V6 that's almost as good as a V8.....not really
SH-AWD almost as good as RWD....not really
Conservative styling.......way to vanilla...looks like a big Accord.

neuronbob

Trust me, you wouldn't laugh if you drove an RL with SH-AWD and A-Spec. It is truly capable. It's not RWD, but it's hella better than FWD. Most people criticizing SH-AWD have never driven the RL, and those who do drive it with the milquetoast Michelin touring tires that come with the car. In addition, because Acura didn't bother marketing A-Spec for the RL, basically only the people who hear about it through forums get a chance to even hear about, let alone try the combo.

It's Acura's fault and their loss!

Moog-Type-S

Not really.....it's one thing to drive...it's a whole different thing on paper.
On paper the RL is DOA. No V8, no RWD, plain, anonymous, boring ,vanilla exterior styling.

You can argue getting behind the wheel makes up for it's paper faults, but when cross-shopping and comparing, the RL is no flagship compared to its "assumed" competition.

Did Acura fail at marketing it?....IMHO the answer is no.
Acura designed a failed product...they gambled on the design and powertrain, and the consumers passed on it.

The RL failed in the consumers eyes, so if you are Acura why spend coin on marketing a failing product?

F23A4

The RL is a great car in and of its self but, only by its self.

As far as its J35 being almost as good as a V8, that would only be in comparison to relatively weak V8 and none from the RL's direct competitors....of which the M45 probably has the least HP (vs. 550i, E550 and GS460) but will make VERY short work of the RL in a drag race.

At its price point, I think I would rather have a loaded 08 CTS @ ~$48k.

Edward'TLS

True that the SH-AWD is capable, but shines only in the wet or snow. This applies to all AWD hardware in general, not just the SH-AWD. AWD hardware makes the car unnecesarily heavy, robs engine power big time, degrades fuel economy, increases maintenance complexity and reliability, and degrades throttle response due to driving two more wheels. So it is not something that all buyers enjoy.

Given the same car with the same engine output, the 2WD (FWD or RWD) version will always outrun the AWD counterpart in the dry. So if the RL had offered RWD as base trim (which carried a lower base price) and SH-AWD as an option, it would sure attract more buyers, either looking for more performance in the dry or looking for AWD traction in the winter.

Two years ago when I was shopping for a car, the RL just came out. I drove it and indeed it was as capable as other AWD candidates. But you couldn't custom order options like the other AWD candidates. It was only available in the fully loaded trim which drove up the MSRP considerably. Most of the stuff like sunroof, navigation, high power stereo were useless to me. It was the price that caused me to move on.

neuronbob

I disagree with what you're saying about SH-AWD, having used it considerably for the last year and change. What you're talking about speaks to Acura's lack of ability to talk about SH-AWD's advantages in dry weather. The torque vectoring gives a distinct advantage over FWD in the twisties. Unfortunately, the lack of marketing leads to misinformation like what you are saying. With FWD, there's constant understeer that's simply not present, or less present, in the RL when you step on the gas enough.

In any case, Acura is about to introduce SH-AWD to the rest of its sedan line--they have said so repeatedly the last year or so--and RWD is an unrealistic wish unless Honda has a skunkworks RWD platform that can accomodate mid- and large- size sedans. They obviously won't get buyers like yourselves who want RWD.

Now I DO totally agree with you all on engine choice. We have a poll going on in the RL part of the board asking what you'd want in a revamped RL. There is a significant minority, of which I am one, that would add a V8 option. I personally would love to have a V8 in the RL as it sorely needs more torque. Putting a high-revving V6 engine where most of the torque is available at 5k in a luxury performance sedan is simply a BAD move on Acura's part and definitely contributes to the RL's lack of sales.

I know it sounds like I'm defending the RL and maybe I am, a little--mostly the drivetrain. The RL definitely has its faults, which we discuss ad nauseum on the RL board. With that said....if I were looking for a car today....it wouldn't be an Acura. As a long-time Honda/Acura buyer, it hurts me to say it, but I would like more power and RWD option myself. As I said in one of my posts above, if Acura doesn't offer something compelling, I am more tempted than ever to leave the brand. I'd opt for a CTS-V or a BMW 545. Caddy's reliability has improved enough that I'm willing to bite.

We'll see what develops in the next model year for Acura. Should be an exciting time.

Edward'TLS

It's hard to say whether SH-AWD will win over FWD in the dry twisties, provided the same car with same engine output. It's because even though torque vectoring has an advantage, but the extra weight and massive power lost in AWD gearings will bog down the SH-AWD car. One thing for sure in the dry is that SH-AWD won't win any highway drag races.

Here's the deal. I agree with you that SH-AWD is good, but I must added that it's application as the ONLY driveline choice on the RL is bad for the following reasons.

(1) The RL is priced too high, and having SH-AWD is part of the reason. RWD is much cheaper to produce, and then buyers can have the choice of a cheaper RWD V6 RL or an expensive and lesser performance AWD V6 RL. FWD won't be possible due to too much engine power for the FWD to handle.

(2) The RL already doesn't stand out among the competitors in terms of horsepowers, and having SH-AWD only makes performance worse. But a V8 option would have fixed this problem on a AWD V8 RL.

And all these come around to the same old problems that keep haunting the Acura brand : the lack of V8+ and RWD.

neuronbob

I totally agree with you here and this is a point we make repeatedly in the RL section. What might have worked was a FWD base RL (for the RL is really a FWD car with AWD attached) rather than the decontented base that debuted for the 07 MY. However, my guess is that the objection to this at Acura HQ is that the pricing for such a beast would have been frightfully close to the TL-S, bleeding sales away from Acura's bread-and-butter sedan.

I still like my RL, though, and with my mods it's an even better car than when it came from the factory. I'm just not afraid to tell Acura what I, as a consumer, want in the next RL. Hopefully this time they'll listen to us.

Poll: What features do you want to see in the new RL?

neuronbob

I was reading the Robb Report ( ) 2008 New Car Guide. In yet another example of how Acura is not considered a luxury brand ny the masses, consider that the Infiniti M was mentioned, but Acura had not one car noted. I was surprised to find something as downmarket as Infiniti (to the crowd that would buy a true luxury car, anyway) in Robb Report.

Is Acura a Japanese Buick/Lincoln? I'm starting to agree that if Acura doesn't step up, Hyundai will pass it by as a lux contender.

Loseit

iTrader: (1)

It's a Mercury. I really nice, fully optioned out Ford.

Costco

Good points, but then again the V8 + FWD luxury sedan formula doesn't seem to work out too well. I haven't seen many examples in recent times that have had much success. Actually, make that I don't even see many examples at all. Maybe it could work? They DEFINITELY need a V8 though, unless they can develop a V6 that would really distinguish itself from the TL's powerplants. Maybe the J37? Doesn't seem likely.

SpicyMikey

But the RL is not a FWD car. It's an AWD car. And a rather sophisticated AWD car at that. It's true you don't see any FWD V8 configs. I think we all know why. However, there are lots of examples of high performance AWD cars. It's just they are the type of brands and cars that aren't on our radar screens (e.g. a Lamborghini Gallardo - one of my favorite looking cars).

SHAWD is so much more sophisticated, safe, and driveable then a simple RWD car. Why would we want Acura to throw that away? They just need to combine it with a an engine that can produce a bit more low end torque.

Personally, I'm fine with my current engine, but, I can understand why people think adding a larger engine would help sales. I can't imagine how chucking the SHAWD system would help anything but satisfy the drifters. Last time I checked, there weren't many 20 year olds buying $50k cars

Costco

Of course the RL is an AWD car, I never said it was an FWD. It was just suggested that if the MMC RL was a FWD, it would have helped out a little.

Acura shouldn't throw it away, its just that offering it as the only drivetrain option was a mistake. They don't have the reputation of AWD vehicles like, say, Subaru does.

Chucking the SH-AWD system would satisfy plenty of customers. As someone who lives in Florida I don't see how you wouldn't see the advantages. Keep the same engine and options, just change the drivetrain from AWD to RWD (not as simple as it sounds) and you have a substantially lower-priced car, which in addition has more acceleration because of the reduced weight. Most AWD vehicles are about $2,000 cheaper than their non-AWD counterparts (assuming that they have a non-AWD option)

Maybe not everyone is looking towards sophistication? Safety, yes. How easy a car is to drive is almost subjective. How many people are looking mainly for an AWD luxury sedan? The general demographic is relatively small compared to with luxury sedans in general.

Have we all forgotten Acura's roots? That would be Honda.... and both companies try to give their customers the best bang for their buck. Making a peaky engine is cheaper than trying to make a engine with gobs of low-end torque. Acura is in a tough spot because we've all made note of how they struggle when they try to go upmarket with new products. Torquey powerplants will drive the price up.

neuronbob

Correct, it was me who said that. The fact is, the RL was designed on a platform meant for FWD, and which was modified for AWD. My opinion is that the engineers did a fabulous job, but I think it is also correct that this should not have been the only drivetrain option. From the results of my poll, many people agree with us.

I also 100% agree as far as Acura's lack of reputation for AWD cars goes. My supposition is that with the introduction of SH-AWD across the line, Acura is trying to be a Japanese Audi. However, in order to get that reputation, they need to TELL people about it. It takes money to make money....

Costco

with the promoting SH-AWD. Audi has those quattro commercials showcasing their rally victories with their Audi quattro. Consumers have more trust in brands/products that have a history behind them or they have experience with. Even if they never heard of the quattro system before it puts an image in their mind that it works and has some history behind it.

I think the RL is a great looking car, never drove one before but seems like a very good value for what you get. Some of us know exactly what SH-AWD does and its purpose, and that has an appeal to us. On the other hand, a lot of consumers never even heard of it, and its usually mentioned in commercials, but never explained or flaunted with any significant references as to why its good.

SpicyMikey

Your right. It was Bob who mentioned that and I got twisted up when i was reading the thread. None the less, going FF doesn't sound like a good idea on any level. I think going AWD across the line would be a smarter move.

It's true I live in FLA but your comment illustrates one of the obstacles all manufacturers have with AWD. Unless you live in the north, people think AWD systems are a waste. Fact is, my AWD system helps me in dry conditions with handling curves and it certainly helps me with rain slicked roads. I think consumer understanding of AWD systems are slowly changing, but it will still take a lot more educating (and marketing like Bob suggested).

I just was out of town last month and rented a car at the airport. The first time I stepped on the gas at the first traffic light, the tires spun out, and I was reminded; oh yea, it's not my RL.

neuronbob

http://www.youtube.com/acura

Acura is trying to reach out to us. I think this is a good step.

It looks like the channel was added over two years ago, but the videos were uploaded three weeks ago. How do I get in one?

The Dougler

iTrader: (1)

Interesting, too bad they will probably screw up the execution.

LuvMyTSX

Make one yourself and send it to them.

LuvMyTSX

Well, from what I can tell just from watching a couple of the videos, I think they need to make more of a connection between the people and the vehicles. The people are telling personal stories, but there's no connection between them and why/how they chose their vehicles. Just seems as if they are missing that one important step to reach out to current and potential customers with an emotional appeal.

Belzebutt

Damn, I expected to see some info on upcoming Acuras, but instead I get some random bozos talking about themselves. I'll pass.

Whiskers

Finally someplace to upload my questionable videos...

vishnus11

It appears that there are folks under the surface who are hard at work trying to repair Acura's image. This is what Acura Execs keep hinting at...

It can't be a coincidence - 09 TSX, 09TL and '10RL out soon, Japanese rollout, a new NSX in the pipeline - 5 years from now this could be a very different company if things go as planned.

neuronbob

I'm sure the Acura guys are here reading our feedback.

You guys obviously don't go for the subtle approach, which is to demonstrate how an Acura is used in each person's life without going overboard about the cars. The cars are in each video, but in the background, being used.

Personally, I think there should be a few videos on why these owners chose their particular Acura, or perhaps teasers about upcoming technology. I'd keep coming back for that.

In the meantime, at least the marketing execs at Acura are off their duffs and trying to do something to change how the brand is presented. I've done as much whining as anyone here about Acura's lack of marketing and I think they should be rewarded for finally seeing the light.

Malayalee King

iTrader: (1)

we should start an acurazine channel haha

fsttyms1

I hope so. If these next 3 models aren't executed properly they may be in a world of hurt (ie current RL)

charliemike

Yawn. Some random asshole talking about this shit doesn't matter to me.

I couldn't give a fuck.

Make a fucking relevant car goddammit and I'll consider giving you my money.

This is marketing circle-jerk horseshit and I ain't playin'.

It's like when some parent makes a big fucking deal because their retarded kid found the paper with a crayon.

Acura is the parent, their cars are retarded, and I'm not impressed.

Moog-Type-S

Meh...
How about Acura puts their focus on producing better car products that compete with the big boys....instead of youtube.

BENDER08

what a waist of my life watched one of them them ....

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Moog-Type-S

.

VTEC Racer

Experience with Lexus and Land Rover.... nice.

I guess what this article really says is that Acura IS aware of their weak marketing practices. I would say that most of the latest Acura commercials are acceptable for a less than tier 1 brand like where Acura is positioned right now. However, marketing is going to go a long way in helping Acura make people believe that they are a tier 1 brand. This is a good and much needed move.

With Hyundai just announcing the establishment of their luxury brand in 2010, Acura really can't afford ANY mistakes at this point of the game.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

They couldn't afford the mistakes in the past few years either.

neuronbob

I read that article on Automotive News, the original source.

All I can say is....it's about fracking time. Is Acura FINALLY acting like it wants to survive?