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I mean in a similar vein to the CorvetteForum member who asked about what they could've done with an extra 100million....
It would be nice to dream about what the NSX program guys could've done with the car if they had unlimited budget for the car.....
Honestly, I don't think all that much would change. Well, maybe it would, but I can understand why Honda would quash that idea- I think it would result in one of two repercussions.
By the end of the day, if Honda did invest another 100 Million, it would want to make that money back. I mean, that's the entire business they're in. Invest money, build product, sell product to overcome investment and make profit.
So then Honda would be left with two options- raise the price of the NSX even further (which I think would be the ultimate death of that car), or sell way more of them, which they don't want to do either, learning from their mistakes with the 1G.
Been very busy this wek but the discussion has gotten better so I'll throw in my
Originally Posted by nist7
If the batteries can be made lighter I would be all for it...and P1 and LaFerrari seems to at least be saving as much weight as possible...and the LaFerrari seems to be using a minimal battery assist vs the other two.
Again not a overall fan of electronic motors imo.....guess you're right in that cars are now moving into that direction overall.
Ha, of course. If any of us won that big PB lotto or if we were billionaire VERY few would have a NSX at the top of the list.
Actually I suspect and wonder how many ACTUALLY wanted a 1991 NSX when it first came out. Sure it was a great car but I suspect the stigma and pedigree worked against the Honda car...I mean if you were super rich why would anyone buy a Honda over a Ferrari at that time (mostly due to the Ferrari being used as a status symbol of course...and bragging about reliability/handling on a track won't drop many panties or make your neighbor jealous). Again no knock on the original NSX at all....just a thought I had and wonder how the buyers reacted to the original NSX and did it actually take away Ferrari/Porsche buyers.....maybe not...but did draw in new fans to Acura/Honda as many have mentioned here.
So in this regard it's easy to say the NSX won't be on anyone's top list...and Honda isn't trying to compete with the 918/P1/LaFerrari of the world.....I mean Honda is a massive company and with enough money they could, I theorize, make a car similar to say a P1/918/LaFerrari....but would be much less reliable, much more costly...and probably wouldn't make them sell lot more Civics than Corollas...which in end will keep them afloat.
Of course none of us knows exactly what went on during those board/R&D meetings on the new NSX program...so may be all conjecture.
I was on the CorvetteForum the other day and saw an interesting Q&A with the chief engineer of the Corvette answering a question on what could the Corvette guys do if GM had given them more money for the program, and I think we may be able to use this to draw parallels to the Honda NSX program as well:
So looks like there may have been lot of behind the scenes excutive/management influence over the NSX and the NSX guys just had to do with the resources they were given
Thx for posting that link, was curious about the numbers as Tadge said they are propiertary but I wouldn't put it past Lutz to post them either even with a NDA/CDA. To me $250M seems kinda low, and $900M seems kinda high for a NRE budget for the C7. Also always like to read Tadge interviews and talks, pretty insightful chief engineer.
From what I've read on the 1G NSX (Wall Street Journal article from 2000's), it was suppose to make money for the duration of the program (never did). Primary market was Corvette and Porsche owners which it didn't attract many from either. Sore subject within the Honda management which felt it was throwing good money after bad to keep production going so long despite losing money but little money for improvements either.
Originally Posted by fsttyms1
Cars like these were never intended to make money. Especially how low the volume is.
Now if Honda were smart and forward thinking (the later of which we know they arent), they would already be working on gen 3
AFAIK, the 1G NSX business case was suppose to make money. The Japanese purpose facility was designed for 25 cars/day. Over it's lifetime they average ~5 cars/day.
Originally Posted by nist7
Interesting. I wonder if the 1G NSX has developed such a huge cult following is the retrospective look back and people saw how great of a car it was.
Could it be the same for the 2G NSX? So far the opinion on Azine at least is that it won't.
Discounting the delay, which definitely has colored many opinions....I'm still interested to know what people think are the intangibles that make a great driver's car.
Some have posted about the technical aspects of the car and some cosmetic and others refer to a soul-stirring factor.
Drawing attention to what was posted above:
Could the new NSX still be sporty? Seems certainly so in Track Mode.
Fun to drive. We'll have to wait and see real world drives, but seems premature to base that opinion...though the heavy set weight is a concern. Prelim reviews show under-steer in daily mode and slight feel of disconnect at the track. Though no turbo lag and the torque vectoring has impressed reviewers.
Awesome-looking. I think we can all agree that Honda hit a homer with the looks (rear end has always been the only area for criticism in my opinion).
Dead reliable. Again this will have to wait until real world time tested results.
And even if there are some negatives (such as the underpowered motor with the 1G NSX) there seems to still be that intangible "put a huge grin on your face factor" that people always tout. We'll have to again seem to wait for more real world examples to come out and see.
Anyway, just asking some questions and honestly I'm quite surprised at the reservation for the new NSX. SO was wondering what does make one truly drool for a car...even with its known flaws or negatives.
Thx for bring the technical discussion back. I'm sorta waiting for the final version and comparison tests to come out to make some judgement. Doesn't really matter as I doubt I'll ever drive one let alone own a 2G NSX but like talking about the tech.
I was never a big fan of the 1G NSX, I thought it was underpowered and the tail was too wide. I prefered the gracefulness of a BMW M1 or Ferrari 328. But thought alot of the engine (Ti rods!) and chassis tech (Al frame) were pretty cool. Have never driven one but know some owners and some people that have driven them on the road and track. Common theme is it's a very easy car to take to 10/10 and it's very balanced in chassis and handling.
Since there's limited media testing so far, I'll wait until the formal release and some comparison testing. So far most of the comments on here are limited to what auto journalists were allowed on the tracks. Most said it's a good to very good car, with some lack of tire and steering feedback. I wonder is a artifact of the electric powered front wheels affect how much steering geometry can be dialed in?
The looks are great, the tech is also right for Honda and pricepoint of the car. Carryover of the NSX 1G aluminum chassis with some flat carbon fibre panels (similar to C7), and the cool ablative tech for the steel structure. The brakes are the most interesting as they total brake by wire but seems like every review had positive comments on brake feel which is impressive.
IMO, the engine has alot of development potential as the boost is low (as iforyou noted less than a 2016 Civic 1.5T).
Originally Posted by iforyou
I'd think Honda could've chosen to use the V10 that they developed for the HSV-10 for the NSX if they really wanted to go with that direction. Probably easier and cheaper that way too since that engine was already developed. May just need to adjust the chassis and some minor changes to get it to fit.
Right now, the 3.5L TT engine is at its lowest tune. Its peak boost I believe is around 15psi, which is even lower than the new Civic's 1.5T engine. And that engine also does NOT have VTEC. But the higher tune is saved for the Type R.
The problem is that Soichiro Honda died and the successor didn't follow up with making evolutionary improvements to the 1g NSX, like how Ferrari would update the 348 to 355, then 360, then 430; or Corvette with C4, C5, C6, etc.
Yeah when the 1G NSX came out it was better than the Ferrari 348 but Ferrari and others were in continual improvement as the 1G just aged with minimal improvements.
Originally Posted by iforyou
Based on the above, pretty much everything in the market is not cutting edge or revolutionary....
911 - still RR and boxer engine
Corvette - still FR and big V8
GTR - still good at the track with turbo power and fancy AWD tech
LaFerrari - Just a Ferrari with some electric motors
918 - Just a Porsche with some electric motors
P1 - Just a McLaren with some electric power
Ford GT - more of the same, but with ecoboost power and a very high price tag
LFA - Yet another FR sports car with a high price tag and V10 engine
R8 - just a poor man's Huracan
, and the Ford GT is being fabricated by Multimatic in Canada as well.
Originally Posted by nist7
I assume you're replying to NopeNope4425's post above which essentially said there is nothing technically new/exciting with the NSX.
But your post illustrates a very good point: that there are probably ALOT of engineering/thought/research that goes into each super/hypercar that we laymen probably can barely understand and so we tend to focus on the obvious (platform, motor size, HP, looks, subjective feel, non-car related factors).
Looking at NSX's technical PR news release they tout new technical details such as:
-New casting technique for multi-material frame construction (carbon fiber, aluminum, steel, etc.)
-Advanced SD-AWD with torque vectoring with the twin units up front and a unit coupled to the motor in the back.
-etc.
Obviously it's a PR piece so of course everyone will toot their own horns.
Now the torque vectoring technology is definitely fairly new and we'll have to wait in time to see how it affects vehicle driving/track dynamics.
There have been cars with various forms of torque vectoring: some Audi cars iirc, Porsche 918, the P1 and LaFerrari do not have independent axle/wheel torque vectoring...but their electric motor are basically boost units for the main motor as far as I understand.
GT-R from wiki shows rear-axle torque vectoring.
But seems like NSX is the first major production supercar to have independent electric motor units up front by the two wheels for dynamic vectoring that way. The PR piece at least touts the Honda's vision for precise and immediate input from the driver into the wheels for instant handling response.
This is way over what I can fully comprehend in terms of engineering/handling dynamics/etc. and how it fits historically into the technological race over time...
But in the end again I think your post, if I see your obviously sarcastic post right....is to point out that each car has likely things that we are either unaware or unable to comprehend and its much more than just a badge, a motor, a drivetrain platform and the HP/torque numbers.
So in the end...it will take time to see how the car world/father time judges this new NSX. At the outset the Azine opinion is that of disappointment it seems. And it may be colored by the protracted delay in its release. But maybe father time will see the NSX as a future legend years down the road...who knows.
edit: some of your examples are actually not that far off: Ford GT and R8 seems to be fairly similar to their older brothers. The P1 and LaFerrari have more in common than the 918 (Porsche also making advanced torque vectoring) which as far as I understand P1 and LaFerrari is more of a direct boost-power unit to the motor and not targeted at wheel-specific torque adjustments
+1, well written. Gotta get comment some more later (busy at work now).
Originally Posted by Yumcha
What got me to love the original NSX was that it was Honda REALLY pushing the envelope with 1 intention in mind: PISS OFF FERRARI.
And frankly, they did. The original NSX is legendary because of what it was able to achieve and do on the track. It PUSHED the envelope...it was a benchmark.
Can we say that for this incoming vaporcar...? That's part my perceived "lukewarm" enthusiasm. This car is arguably very good per the initial reviews by the test-drivers from the car review sites...BUT, is this car going to make the head of Ferrari swear under their breath and go, "Holy ravioli, we need more mozzarella and spicy meatballs in our Ferraris going forward! Redo the 488!!!"
Nope. Ferrari probably yawned.
Although the 1G NSX was better than the 348 it was not in the same performance league as the F40 (which came out in 1987). F40 was also lighter (~2400lb vs 3000lb) and more powerful (478HP vs 270).
Where the 1G outdid Ferrari was how balanced and easy drive to the handling. And not crucial but could easily be a daily driver and was typical Honda reliable and low cost of ownership.
Originally Posted by TacoBello
Unfortunately, Ferrari learned a value lesson in 1990, and as such, Acura would have to build a 1.5 million dollar hypercar that would eat up the poopdick mc fartington. Not gonna happen.
In 1990, it was crazy to have a big, mid mounted V8, RWD, a manual gear box, power windows and AC. That's not the case anymore. Acura will never again battle for supremacy with Ferrari.
Ferrari had RWD, mid-engined V8's, with manual gearbox, and A/C since the mid-70's (308/328/348/355/360/430/488).
And Acura really never battled Ferrari for supremacy, what the 1G NSX did was provide a baseline to Luca on what a sportscar should be when he returned to Ferrari in the early 90's. Sorta drove Ferrari to step up their game from the anemic 348/355.
Originally Posted by nist7
^^^ Agreed with the points above.
Honda can probably spend hundreds of millions to develop a hypercar that can probably trounce even the LaFerrari if they want to but obviously they don't want to nor would it be a good business decision to compete on that area.
Ferrari is a 3billion/yr business and Honda is a 100+billion/yr business.
They know they have to carve out a new niche of the supercar market and it's not viable or realistic to actually compete with Ferrari anymore on a head to head basis.
And obviously things have become much more competitive in the modern days where tech and science and materials has advanced so much. It's harder and harder to probably do ground breaking of anything now vs the 1990s many things were still waiting to be discovered/invented.
And as I posted above with the insight into the Corvette program and its relations to Chevy/GM...NSX program leadership probably had to go to Honda/Acura executives and ask for a budget for the NSX and it probably kept changing with the 08/09 recession and continuing changes in the finances/direction of the car.
I mean in a similar vein to the CorvetteForum member who asked about what they could've done with an extra 100million....
It would be nice to dream about what the NSX program guys could've done with the car if they had unlimited budget for the car.....
+1, technology has really produced some amazing daily drivers today that put what was high performance in the 80's and 90's and with alot more tech and safety to boot.
The money and budget stuff I also find facinating since there have been some amazing and bad cars produced for low and high NRE budgets. And like Tadge says, it's typically proprietary info.
Originally Posted by iforyou
haha, yup that's pretty much it man!
Basically, I feel that some of us are jumping to a conclusion way too soon....when the final actual production model hasn't even been extensively tested by the general media.
The problem here is that, the original NSX wasn't really that amazing on the track. The R32 GT-R at that time, which costed like half as much of the NSX, was faster. You'd need the NSX-R in order to beat the GT-R on the track.
What the NSX excelled at was its user-friendliness. It is easy to drive - light clutch, slick gearchange, smooth power delivery, superb all-round visibility and ergonomical cockpit. It displayed excellent road manners that were unheard of while being more comfortable than the 348 and 911 at the time.
And what made the 1g NSX a legend is that, it's still the one and only Japanese car that can stand proudly beside Ferraris and Porsches, go as well and keep millionaires loyal to.
As to what the new NSX can do? To me, it's too early to tell. The initial impressions for the pre-production model seems to be very good, but there were some negatives too. But it seems like Honda have been working on those negatives since the media event a few months ago.
^^Commenting on the steering feedback, and at least from Acura's PR piece...they are saying the main direction they wanted to take the car is for immediate response from driver's hands TO the wheels/tires. And hence the very high tech dynamic torque vectoring to the front wheels to help/adjust steering in real time.
I think this section highlights a possible interesting point for discussion:
Originally Posted by Acura
In keeping with the development team's 'human-centered supercar' concept, the new NSX and its Sport Hybrid Super Handling drivetrain were truly engineered from the driver out.
While the NSX provides a new sports experience with 'on rails handling,' its Super Handling technology was optimized to enhance the driving experience by responding instantaneously and intuitively to the will of the driver.
...
While many advanced automotive technologies are focused on feedback, measurements of how the vehicle is reacting, NSX uniquely applies additional technology to focus on accurately responding to driver input through immediate, precise application of torque at each wheel at any moment.
Using cutting edge computer-aided engineering (CAE) optimization software, engineers created a double-wishbone, double lower control arm front suspension that decouples the twin-motor unit (TMU) torque from the driver's experience at the steering wheel, providing timeless sports car steering communication to the driver with a new experience of on rails handling provided by the precise torque vectoring of the TMU.
I think those are interesting points to consider. Is the reason that there is a slightly "numb" feel to the steering because this system, which Acura touts as a more direct/immediate/accurate input rather than focused on feedback...TOO good?
Maybe the reviewers are used to how a "normal" supercar/sportscar should handle as they experience it via the steering wheel....that this new NSX is a different experience and maybe providing a diff experience at the steering wheel...translating to a "numb" feeling?
Seems like they are looking for a more objectively "better" handling rather than say a more visceral/subjective feedback to the steering by the driver. I don't know/experience enough to make further comments but I do invite those with more technical and/or racetrack knowledge/experience to help shed light to this very interesting tidbit of information.
And here....it seems to me this can be a possible area for new-frontier/edge/thinking in sportscar development.
Also, it's probably just going to be like the Y2K countdown... I went to sleep 12/31/1999 thinking.. welp there goes the end of the world... Woke up to just a boner...
They show another set of wheels, under "options". They look to be half carbon fiber and are going for $9400, but there is zero details about them. I chose them, but realistically would do without. I don't think they're all that nice anyway.
The standard wheels and the optional ones for an additional $1500 are way nicer in my opinion.
They show another set of wheels, under "options". They look to be half carbon fiber and are going for $9400, but there is zero details about them.
$9400? But you can get some #legit #authentic #stance #JDM wheels by Work, Weds, Volks, Advan, etc. for 1/10th of that and are worth much much more. . . . because #legit #authentic #JDM
02-03-2016, 05:21 PM
Thx for posting that link, was curious about the numbers as Tadge said they are propiertary but I wouldn't put it past Lutz to post them either even with a NDA/CDA. To me $250M seems kinda low, and $900M seems kinda high for a NRE budget for the C7. Also always like to read Tadge interviews and talks, pretty insightful chief engineer.
, and the Ford GT is being fabricated by Multimatic in Canada as well. 
, are you?
smilie, but with chopsticks
, IMO.
