Flipster23

iTrader: (15)

I feel betrayed.

crazyasiantl

iTrader: (7)

Because you forgot to suck first

oonowindoo

so i was gone for 3 weeks and seems there has not been any progress on this time machine yet.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

I understand that, what I'm wondering is why you guys enjoy reveling in it so much.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

I don't think they do.

Yumcha

I can't explain for everyone...but, here's my take: The NSX was the car I drooled at in the 90s along with many Honda cars like the Prelude, Integra Type R, and etc.

First car I bought was the CL Type S. I was even a huge fan of the 2nd gen. RL when SH-AWD was first introduced. But, as the years passed, Honda/Acura as a manufacturer started to lose something for me...and believe me, I tried...

Remember the HSC...? Cancelled. Then, the NSX gets announced and delay after delay after delay...and then, entire shenanigans with the specs...If anything, it's become sadly comedic. I've got nothing else but to react with sarcasm but BELIEVE me when I say, I want Honda to prove me wrong.

I want this NSX, despite the ambitious price-point, to sell. I want it to convince Honda/Acura to get their heads out of the @$$es and start selling performance-type vehicles. I want them to start pushing the envelope instead of always giving the PERCEPTION they are just trying to meet the market benchmarks...stop settling. Start setting.

Hope that helps.

TacoBello

It goes even deeper for me. I remember riding in an optioned out, 1994 Legend sedan, my close friend's parents just bought. It was stellar. I didn't know anything about cars at that age, but I knew that car was special. I didn't really get into cars until 6 years later, though. And at that time, Acura was firing on all cylinders. The NA2 NSX was out, the Integra Type R was in North America, the AP1 s2000 (albeit a Honda) was released just recently, and the 2G TL/CL were BIG hits.

Acura touted precision back then. And precision you got. Those VTEC engines were nothing short of jaw dropping, some of which revved to 8700-9000 rpm. Acura had some of the best suspension setups then on all of their cars and having an Acura back in 2000 was something special and it was the brand to get. No joke.

I then experienced riding and driving in a 1992 DB2 Integra GS-R. That car was fucking awesome. It possessed the rarest car engine Honda ever produced even to date, with under 3500 B17 engines being sold in said car between 1992-1993. That car was pricey, reliable as fuck, and one of the sportiest cars you could buy in that category.

I went on to drive many other Acuras in that time period. Several DC Integras, one even a Type R, the RSX-S would soon be coming out and I'd have a chance to drive it, as well as a second DB2 Integra. I'd pilot one NA2 NSX around then, which was still in production at the time, as well as the mind blowingly well selling (for an Acura) 1G TSX and 3G TL came out in 2004. Acura just kept hitting home run after home run.

And then Acura hit a fucking wall. The NSX was axed in 2005. The RSX was killed off in 2006. There was no luxury coupe like the CL since 2003. In 2009, The 4G TL was an awesome, yet horrendous looking car that no one understood. What happened?! And then the TSX followed. And it became bloated. But still had the same engine as before. And then only to have Honda/Acura tease the shit out of us with 3 fucking iterations and even now STILL not have a fucking new NSX yet. One year earlier Acura turbo'd the RDX and it was touted as being an awful gas pig. The RL never regained it's Legend status, but it was a good offering in 2005, only to become stagnant over the years and eventually replaced by the almost non-selling RLX. The NSX then came back 56 times, was delayed eleventy billion times, and yet still nothing. Acura killed the 6MT after 2014 in its entirety.

And then Acura tries cramming this "it's that kind of thrill" bullshit down our throats, while knowing their stick-in-the-mud, we-won't-change mentality keeps forcing them to keep pumping out rather uninspiring products. They're not even thrilling, save for, from what I've heard, the RLX-SH, which I'll likely never get to drive due to only 600 being sold this year in all of North America.

There no longer is a type R of any kind. There no longer is a Type S of any kind. There no longer is a coupe, large or small, of any kind. There no longer is a class best 6MT transmission and shifter. There no longer is any soul to this company, as all they give two shits about is selling as many vanilla SUVs as possible. But wait, that decade late super car that will cost $300k CAN here is supposed to get me excited, even though the initial reviews aren't exactly thrilling? Awesome!

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

^I wasn't a honda guy growing up which I think has something to do with why my perception and expectations differ here. I grew up on bmw. when I was really young my dad raced cars, mostly bmws, and had several different m cars. I loved going to the track with him and helping change tires, etc. so naturally I was a bmw guy too. I've owned several bimmers and one m3. great driving cars but they were money pits. the bangle years sucked and I'm critical of how fat bimmers have gotten up to now. but as I've gotten older my values have changed. I still love cars, but I'm not a brand loyalist anymore, which has made me less critical of bmw bc I don't care as much.

when I was in middle school we carpooled with some people who had a legend, I thought it was a great car. I had a friend who had several integras which I thought were great handling, lightweight cars but under powered. my dad had a good friend that tracked an nsx, again a great handling, lightweight car but not best in class power. as my values changed the reliability and value of honda has become very attractive to me which is why I got in to a 3g tl almost 10 years ago. I'm on my second 3g tl now (first one totaled), a type-s, which is a great car.

I like my type-s a lot but it's not best in class power or performance. however it's been a very cost effective car for me to own and it satisfies the "car enthusiast" in me for now. at this point, I don't think any car company is without it's faults. there's always a trade-off. I totally get that you guys have some nostalgia at play here, and no offense intended here, but I think you're putting acura/honda of yesterday on a pedestal which impacts your expectations today. I agree that it sucks there's no type-s or type-r variants out there right now, and I hope that changes soon. I hope the nsx is released soon too. the difference for me is that I don't feel betrayed because I don't have that history or attachment there. I felt that way about bmw at one time too when bangle took over design and the cars kept getting bigger and heavier. now, I'm not attached to any car company and if they go in a direction I don't like I'll look elsewhere.

suspekt360

Some great posts above.

I've been exclusively Acura Since 2002 starting with a 2001 Acura CL-S. I then migrated to a 2003 6 MT CL-S which to this day still conjures fond memories. The feeling of revving out a properly uncorked J motor has become a lifelong addiction.

I might be in the minority, but I feel the 4G TL SH-AWD delivered everything I wanted in an Acura:
1. Exterior design
2. Interior design
3. Special Honda V6
4. SH AWD

I have to say this. I was attracted to the 4G first by exterior design, secondly by SH AWD, and thirdly by interior design/layout.

Now to present state.

Nothing they currently sell I desire. I mean deep down stirs me to want to go out and sell my 4G to buy.

There are 2 companies right now that are so close to a product that would make me WANT badly.

ACURA:
- TLX widebody (in the fucking metal) with twin turbo V6, SH AWD, and a quick shifting smooth reliable transmission.

Chevrolet:
- An Alpha platform based sedan with Camaro SS hardware (LT1, 8 speed auto or 6 MT) plus torque vectoring AWD. The Chevrolet SS could do as well with AWD added.

ttribe

Yes, you are in the minority.

TacoBello

You're on drugs. Really bad ones. And what's so special about the V6 in the 4G? The fact that it burns oil like crazy in the SH models?


hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Flipster23

iTrader: (15)

Acura started sucking in 2009. They continue to suck till this day.

07-08.

Flipster23

iTrader: (15)

I'm honestly not laughing at you. Just your statement is funny

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I think the main culprit (or excuse for some of you) here is that Honda cancelled a bunch of plans (like the RWD platform, V8, HSV-010) due to the 08/09 economic down turn. Looking back now, I think it's safe to say Honda over-reacted in that situation, and it seems like their contingency plan was not welcomed at all my most.

This ultimately led to a lack of exciting cars from around 2009 to now, which is quite a long time. So it's totally understanding that some of us here are pissed.

Looking forward, I think it's clear that Honda has recovered, or is recovering very well. The 9th gen Accord is so good, and the facelift made it even better. The 10th gen Civic is without a doubt a huge success so far as it's setting the new benchmark in its segment. The new Pilot is another huge hit. Even the CR-V facelift was very good. The Acura SUV's have been doing well for years now. So when Ikeda or Marek are saying that they are turning their focus on the sedans now, I really look forward to the future nased on the recent track record of Honda. May be I just have a bit more patience or just more optimistic than some of you..lol..

TacoBello

Honda's average joe models are good, and always have been good (for the most part). But they strongly lack any cars that stir the soul. I'm pretty sure Soichiro Honda is spinning in his grave right now, looking at what Honda and Acura have become- the complete opposite of what he built them to be.

What's worse is why is Acura NOW starting to focus on the sedans? Why didn't they start with the TLX? Or RLX? Or updated ILX? And I'm sorry, but nice headlights and nice wheels do not stir the soul. They can amplify the effects, but they cannot carry the torch on their own. It's the car in its entirety- how it feels, how it responds, how it moves and stops is what stirs the soul.

Besides for the NSX replacement, Honda/Acura had no intentions of shifting to RWD. They had no intentions of building new, bigger, engines (again, besides for the NSX, at the time).

So yes, while I bitch and complain all the time about Honda and Acura, maybe now some of you can understand why. I WANT to give them my hard earned money. But I'm not going to do it just because of the badge on the hood.

suspekt360

In all seriousness, wouldn't a properly fenders blistered TLX (like the racecar) be appealing? Add in a TT 2.7 V6 and SH-AWD and many of us would be very interested.

I know Honda, and one of my biggest gripes with them, is their inability to provide bespoke bumpers (let alone unique fender stampings) on higher trim models. This is one of the areas where I truly give the German makes credit.

Anyways, I'm hopeful there is a pumped up TLX coming.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I think the issue is that, they were working on that tier-1 plan just before the economy collapsed. We saw the test mule already to prove that's what they were intending to do. That plan folded and their contingency plan was no where good enough. That plan led to ILX and RLX. The TLX is doing fine but that's probably because the 9th gen Accord is such a good car, so making a Honda+ version and charging a bit more money wouldn't look as bad. The ILX is bad because the 9th gen Civic was also bad....and building the RLX on the Accord platform is just a bit too far.

TacoBello

Oh, sure, it'd be appealing, but there's a bigger chance of winning the PowerBall 10 times in a row than Honda EVER making such a car.

weather

TACOBELLO....Your post (#6607) was simply so well written and captured the demise of Acura that it should be printed, laminated and sent to Acura's headquarters.

I didn't want to quote the entire thing because it was all relevant so I wanted to just quote your post number instead! Well written my friend....

Edward'TLS

From the way the Honda presidents come and go like a revolving door for the past 2 decades, it is very obviously that the on-deck presidents were/are continuously making bad, bad decisions.

The cancellations and unnecessary delays of some big-ticket programs (such as V8/V10, RWD, NSX, DI-V6, 7/8/9-speed auto box) hurt the "luxury" Acura brand more than the econo Honda brand. They could have put the "luxury" Acura brand back on the road to become more successful as a recognized luxury auto brand.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

I honestly don't see why everyone wants rwd v8/v10 and acura to be a german clone. I would assume that would mean acura would also move upmarket on price too.

TacoBello

Not everything should have a v8. But the RLX should. Not everything should be RWD. But the TLX and RLX should. Acura should also provide two coupes again. An entry level FWD with a turbo I4, and a second, larger, RWD coupe with either a turbo V6 or NA V8. The ILX should remain as-is, with the FWD and turbo. The entry level coupe should be based off this platform.

Acura never followed anyone in the 90s and early 2000s and they certainly don't have to now. Using a V8 isn't copying.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

I will take sh-awd over rwd. I'd also accept a turbo v6 in place of a v8. I have driven the rlx hybrid and think it's a great car with adequate power. there are plenty of rwd v8 options out there now, so it's not a big deal to me to have one with an acura/honda badge on it.

TacoBello

No one said anything about AWD. And as it stands, Acura offers FWD and AWD. They should offer RWD and AWD. Add to my list the AWD options for the RLX and TLX (I thought that was a given, though).

The people who buy RLX class vehicles don't want a v6 Turbo. They want a v8. While the v6t can do the same as the v8, performance wise, it doesn't have that exclusivity to it. That's what people want when they drop 60k.

I'm confused as to what you don't understand. Let's not forget, you can't please everyone, and while you're ok with what you mentioned, it's clear many others aren't in the same boat.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

acura sells a lot of fwd and has traditionally produced mostly fwd vehicles so I don't see acura getting rid of fwd. the legend, integra, cl, and rsx were fwd...did that bother you? this is what I don't understand, everyone mentions these cars when they talk about past acura greatness and these cars were all fwd. then people say they don't like fwd.

I'm not going to speak for all people buying large luxury sedans. I'm doubtful that the average person is car shopping based on the number of cylinders.

acura's sales are doing very well right now and continue to improve. so their strategy is clearly pleasing a lot of people.

TacoBello

Again, there's a big difference between having average joe cars, and having a performance line. You can have the average joe TLX. But you NEED a performance TLX also.

While those past Acura's were good, they are all dead for about a decade now, if not longer. They WERE good back then. But the luxury market is a fierce place to be. Let's also not forget that Acura has been behind Lexus, the Germans and even Cadillac (only until recently, and only for a moment) in terms of sales. So people clearly DO want more cylinders and RWD and faster cars.

The Integra sold very well during its time. As did the RSX... For the first two years. And then sales dropped drastically. Why? People got tired of the same shit. Yes, the RSX had a modest bump in power, but it also weighed more, so it wasn't anything different than before.

Those that can't afford that stuff, settle on Acura and scream from mountain tops that they got the best deal, because they likely can't afford the other brands, and still hold on to dear life about Acura reliability, which hasn't been the case over the last entire decade.

fsttyms1

Ok, How about FWD vs RWD. Acura is trying to tell everyone that they are performance. That they are not. FWD and SH-AWD with the engines AND transmissions they have do not make for a compelling argument of fun cars to drive. If you are going to try to sell yourself as something you very better have it to back it up. Quit confusing people here saying that they need RWD or V8 as the sole motor, as that isnt what we are saying. They DO need those as OPTIONS if they want to be compared to, or even try to sell themselves as competitors to the others. Right now they have an average at best 4cyl, and a V6 (with less than 300hp) that is NOTHING special as their only engines (mainstream) and are still clueless as to what the rest of the industry is doing (very evident in many of the comments and press releases as of late)

fsttyms1

And to me that is BS and is just a poor excuse by them/for them just not having a true direction or plan by leadership(which is still true today). Every other manufacturer continued on improving, some (Hyundai) even creating a luxury line during the so called economy collapse.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

like I said earlier, I hope for a type-s or type-r variant too. turbo v6 with sh-awd drive and dct would be great.

when the legend, cl, rsx, etc were in production bmw was producing rwd cars and even offered a v12. acura/honda has never had best in class power. you're putting acura/honda of yesterday on a pedestal.

the vast majority of people make less than $100,000 per year, which means most people really can't afford expensive luxury cars even though they might be driving one. to be clear, there is a difference between being able to take out a loan, make a monthly payment and truly affording a car. this is a big reason people in the usa have almost no retirement savings and are mortgaged to the max.

acura sales are good today and are getting better.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

marketing is as marketing does. I wouldn't call a bmw the "ultimate driving machine" either.

I never said "that they need RWD or V8 as the sole motor." why do they need those options if sales are good and improving? why are people so concerned about parity with the germans? if what you want is what the germans are selling then buy from the germans.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

and some companies needed a bailout.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I don't think the issue is too much about FWD vs RWD. Audi shows us that what FWD chassis + AWD are capable of.

Nowadays, if you want a V8 power 5 series, it's more than $60k man....it starts at over $66k...for a base model.....

Make no mistake, Acura needs to expand big time as it's lacking performance trims, coupes, sports models, etc. I'm surprised with only 5 models, they can still sell so many of them....those RDX's and MDX's are really helping....lol

Perhaps some can't afford more expensive cars, so they settle for Acura's. But I'd imagine there are other reasons too. Take the TLX for example, if RWD isn't a big factor, then it's a really nice near luxury sedan at a good price. Yeah, it might not be all that reliable, but Acura has built a reputation for having good reliability. That won't change right away. It's just like even if Acura comes out with some world class cars, the brand image wouldn't change right away.

Perhaps you are right that was some BS excuse. But boy they did spent the money on a RWD platform otherwise there wouldn't even be a test mule.

Hyundai created a luxury model. It's only in recent time that it created a luxury line. Hyundai is a lot bigger than Honda, especially after it bought Kia. Many components can be shared to reduce costs. Together, Hyundai-Kia is the 6th largest car company, behind Toyota, Volkswagen, GM, Ford and Renault-Nissan.

Here's some comparison numbers:
Hyundai-Kia sales 2013: 7,367,000 units
Honda sales 2013/2014: 4,323,000 units

Like I said, Honda over reacted in that economy collapse, which is a real shame.

TacoBello

I find it hilarious that anyone who sticks up for Acura, always falls back to the "marketing is marketing" argument. Please. There is NOTHING thrilling about Acura. NOTHING. And the only reason Acura uses that marketing campaign is because once upon a time, Acura was considered thrilling. A loooong ass time ago.

So I'm curious, within BMWs price range, what do you call the ultimate driving machine brand? BMW has always touted itself and made the best handling and best driver focused cars. And any of their M cars are exactly that. Even their non-M cars pick up characteristics of M cars. In such a case, BMW CAN use the "ultimate driving machine" slogan, across their lineup. No, their entry level cars are not the ultimate, but why would they be? BMW doesn't even have a super car (sorry, but the i8 can get trounced by a shit done of different cars out there, today). And yet it BMW is considered luxurious and sporty by the masses.

What about Acura? They have ONE performance oriented car, that isn't even available still, that costs way beyond the means of many people. No, not everyone car afford an M car, but even less people can afford the NSX. Way less. Nothing about Acura is thrilling. You rarely, if ever, hear or see Acura advertise their superb SH-AWD system. Most people have no idea what it even is. I bet you way more people know what an M car is though.

TacoBello

Again, If that's the only argument that an Acura owner can come up, that's pretty brutal. Quit living in the past, when Acura WAS reliable and when Acura WAS thrilling, and the big three American brands WERE struggling and absolute shit.

And also, who gives a shit if they were given a bailout? Ford didn't even need it, but took it anyway. At least those companies did something with that money and realized their cars were shit.

TacoBello

Yes, but these days Honda has the ability to sell more cars. You make Honda sound like it's this feeble and weak company. They could have made the push like Toyota and Lexus did, but they chose to stay smaller.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I think you are missing the point of skd2k1....his initial response wasn't to say Acura is better than BMW, or BMW sucks, or something along that line. I also don't get the feeling that he's saying Acura models nowadays are fun to drive or thrilling. That's why he said marketing is marketing. That to be implies that while Acura is using the "it's that kind of thrill" slogan, it's just all marketing and that's about it.

If you have a chance to look at recent test reviews of BMW models, you'd notice that a lot of their cars have lost that "ultimate driving machine" factor.

Here are some quotes:

F10 5-series:
2011 BMW 535i

Lows:
Numb steering, feels massive, tricky to probe the suspension’s limits.

Verdict:
Still desirable, but some “sport” has been lost in favor of luxury.

*Note how the 5 series is ranked dead last in this test, and how the FWD-based A6 won the test."

F30 3 series:
Habemus Papem! 2013 BMW 335i M Sport vs. 2013 Cadillac ATS 3.6, 2014 Lexus IS350 F Sport Comparison Tests - Page 3 - Car and Driver

Lows:
Noisy and busy suspension, lifeless electrically assisted steering.

Verdict:
Still good at everything, but no longer the best at much.

Another F30 3 series:
2015 BMW 335i xDrive Test ? Review ? Car and Driver

Lows:
All-season run-flat tires need to get a grip, long stopping distances, still lacks the tactility of its forebears.

In terms of fun to drive, for the 3-series class, the ATS is probably the best of the bunch, followed by the Lexus IS. Note, I'm not talking about 320i, or 528i, these are the 535i and 335i.

I hope this is more clear now. Again, we aren't claiming FWD > RWD.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

sorry dude, but I don't think acura has ever been that thrilling. that's just your nostalgia talking. you're putting acura of yesterday on a pedestal which is why you're disappointed today.

the slogan isn't "the ulimate driving machine...in this particular price range." it's just "the ultimate driving machine", period. entry level bimmers aren't "the ultimate" and neither are m cars.

personally, I think modern bimmers are oversized and overweight. I think m cars were more pure originally, but maybe that's just my nostalgia talking.

so what? like I said, I hope for a type-s or type-r variant soon. I hope the nsx is out soon too, but I'm not losing sleep over it bc I'm not going to buy one even if it's out tomorrow.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Nissan made that push in late 80s. For sports cars it had 300ZX, Silvia, and GT-R, on the luxury side, they introduced the Infiniti brand, have a V8/RWD Q45, the RWD J30, Cedric, Gloria, FWD I30, niche models like Be-1, Pao, Figaro and S-Cargo.

Many of those models weren't profitable, and by the 90's, when Japan went into recession, it came very close to bankruptcy. In 1999, it had to sell its controlling stake to Renault, ending its independence.

Edward'TLS

Nissan launched the luxury Infiniti division right about the same time as Toyota launched the luxury Lexus division.

In the beginning, Lexus vehicles had V8, RWD, and most importantly a expensive looking MB-lookalike exterior styling.

But even though Infiniti vehicles also had V8 and RWD. All that they have is a non-descriptive, cheap-looking, grille-less exterior styling, which killed off the Q45 outright; just like the way the hideous looking "power plenum" did for the Acura 4G TL sedan.

The Lexus brand has succeeded, while Acura and Infiniti have failed to become a true luxury brand.

One needs to get everything in (RWD, V8, good styling) and everything right in order to become successful in this fiercely competitive luxury sedan market.

Like I said many time before, V8/RWD doesn't guarantee that a luxury auto brand will succeed, but the lack of V8/RWD can guarantee that the luxury-wanna-be auto brand will fail to become a true luxury brand.

SSFTSX

Honda stock value is now higher than H/K group and BMW. you have to look at quality of earnings not the quantity.