oonowindoo

I am sure some dumb ass would spend $65k with markup for the ITS.... i am suspecting the MSRP will be around $50k cuz it has the identical but superior interior than Civic CTR already has $44k MSRP.
There is almost a $7-9k price difference between the Civic SI and Integra 6mt...so i would be surprised if ITS doesnt start around 49k or more.

A quick google search, Carmax is selling some slightly used 2023 CTR for $64,995

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Premium in the same way Hyundai is premium to Kia?

SamDoe1

A third pedal isn't enough to make me want to part ways with $55k (or more) for a slightly nicer Honda Civic when I could have a M340i for not much more money.

I'd imagine a lot of people aside from the Honda fanboys would agree with that assessment. There's also the used market for manual sedans too, many of which are better than a new ITS for crazy money.

All of those hot hatches also have 4 doors...does that make them sedans?

If Acura is premium then I'd say VW is too.

oonowindoo

Acura created a new segment since they cannot fit in to the traditional luxury segment

Smart Luxury aka Premium... aka luxury on a budget (before), Luxury on a budget that costs the same as true luxury brand (now)
yah doesnt make sense and that is why they are failing.

fiatlux

This is all semantics, but I would argue that 4-door liftbacks are more sedan than they are hatchback. Ask 100 people what a Model S is and 95 of them will say sedan. For all intents and purposes they are sedans.

oonowindoo

well if you asked BMW, they are called Gran Coupe

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Today I learned the BMW X6 is a sedan because it's a 4 door liftback

fiatlux

Well, its stablemate 6-Series Gran Coupe is certainly very sedanlike. Cars like the Stinger GT and Model S are marketed and referenced to as sedans. What purpose does it serve to segregate all these "liftbacks" that look 99% like a sedan into it's own category? It's just going to add to confusion.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I think the greater confusion is cross shopping a Integra with a Caddy BW and BMW M car

fiatlux

My point is that you can't cross shop it, and hence why the Integra Type S even at $50K still makes sense for someone looking for a premium 4-door manual car with usuable rear seats. There literally isn't anything that checks those boxes within $25K of it, and even then what you'd get is a stripper-spec M3 that looks horrid.

ELIN

Does Lexus have a variant of the GR Corolla?

The most expensive GR is already over $50k and is only a 2-seater:
https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/gr-corolla/

SamDoe1

Golf R, Golf GTI, Jetta GLI, Civic Type R (lets be honest, it's basically the same), and then there's a sizable used market as well.

fiatlux

Those are all pretty pedestrian and not premium/luxury. It may be a stretch to call the Integra premium (it's certainly not luxury), but it is a step above the CTR and a couple steps above the Mk8 Golfs. Hell, the CTR is already a decent step above the Mk8s

oonowindoo

The thing is you dont need to spend 50k+ to get a 6mt Corolla GR (without markup), the $40k trim has pretty much everything you need. but you must spend 50K+ to get the ITR with 6mt with CTR engine.

Not to mention, it is AWD which should be 3-4k more than the FWD car by default.

oonowindoo

That is because it is a sedan.... the 6 and the 8 series GC's trunk is a normal trunk just in case if you didnt know.

oonowindoo

First even the stripper Spec M3 will have more shit than the ITR would ever have.
The added options will never even be offered by the ITS to begin with. so that is not a relevant comparison.

If you think the ITS's "premium" status is worth $7k or more than a CTR, then maybe you will find a few takers from the hardcore Honda fanboys.

Even the Name Type R sounds more "premium" to me than a Type S

fiatlux

People said the same thing about the Integra vs the Si, and yet it doesn't seem like Acura has had any issues moving 6MT Integras...

oonowindoo

How many 6mt $40k Integra did they sell?


"No issue moving" is a very deceiving term. Acura could have made 2 6mt Integra per month, of course they have no problem moving them.
I am sure there might be be some people buying a 6mt 7 series if BMW ever made a few of those.

I dont recall ever seeing the sales number on the 6mt Integra vs. Si sales number.

SamDoe1

Do you know what the take rate is for the Integra 6MT vs the Civic Si?

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

$52k for the Type S. That's about what I expected it to cost, and I agree, it's too much.

ELIN

I'd rather take a nicely optioned up 3 series that's only 0.3 sec slower than CTR. This is assuming the extra weight on the ITS is compensated by the additional 5 HP (doubtful).

SamDoe1

That's nearly the price of a M340i. For just a bit more money, you can have a car that's bigger, faster, better built, and more luxurious.

Only reason to buy the ITS is if you REALLY want a manual.

ELIN

To be fair, the base price of the M340i is $59k+. Nicely optioned, it will go up to $70k! That's why I kept my alternative the regular 3 series!

SamDoe1

The one I built the way I'd order it was $60k with the options that I'd pick. Compared to the ITS, the M340 even at $8k more is worth it.

This also doesn't even include cars like the Tesla 3 Performance and Y Performance which are also comparable in price to the ITS and will leave it in the dust.

biker

2024 Acura Integra Type S Kicks Off at $50,800, That's $7k More Than a Civic Type R - autoevolution

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Or for $6k less you could get a Golf R. And if you don't like capacitive buttons, you could get an S3 Prestige for $1k more, have twice the driven wheels and way more features.

And if the excuse for the ITS is it's track prowess - 1) it's on track behavior hasn't been published yet and 2) you can save $7k and just get the proven CTR.

fiatlux

The problem is that you can't just save $7K and get the CTR; if anything you'd be paying more for the CTR given all the markups that dealerships still aren't backing down on. Here in CA the markups for the FK8 never went away; even in the last model year the lowest I could find was $5K over sticker. It's like the Integra 6MT vs Civic Si thing all over again; sure the Civic Si stickers for $8K less, but you can't buy one anywhere close to sticker, whereas you can buy an Integra 6MT for under sticker.

My local dealership is asking for $60K for the CTR, and they have a pretty long waiting list. The $52K ITS is looking like a comparative bargain.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

What makes you think Acura dealerships won't have markups either?

ELIN

I think fiatlux is going by the prior example of most Acura dealerships not charging ADM when the Integra came back last year. While that may not be the strongest argument, here's a couple more:

1) Current prime rate is 8.25% (fed funds is at 5.25%). Any attempt at ADM will be a cold shower for the monthly payment.
2) Supply chains have largely opened up to where lots are back to normal. Dealers honestly can't afford to have cars sit on lots like during the Pandemic.
3) Just going by the April sales data, RDX and TLX are underperforming. Acura really needs all other cars to pick up the slack. Unsold ITS on lots will not be a good look for Acura corporate (Honda has many more models to fall back on compared to Acura's 4).

fiatlux

My dealer said it was was about 50% at the 6 month point for their dealership. It’s probably come back down once all the enthusiasts have gotten theirs but it was very high.

SamDoe1

All of these arguments suggest that I should be able to get a CTR at MSRP as well.

People who have money or have the appetite for high interest loans will still go for it even with the mark up which is almost certainly going to happen. People aren't idiots and if they find that they can get a CTR with an Acura badge for less money than a CTR, they'll do it. Because of that, markups are inevitable.

Also, the RDX and TLX underperform because they're underperforming cars. Even the TLX type S is tragically outmatched by all of its competitors. Regardless, the ITS will be a small bucket of sales relative to people buying the MDX or normal Integra so there won't be mountains of them sitting on dealer lots anyway.

oonowindoo

Considering M340i are being sold at MSRP or slightly lower.... and ITS will almost definitely have some dumb markups until Acura realizes that only the Dumbfucks would buy a civic for $60k... until then they might cost the same.

not to mention M240i, starts at $48k...

fiatlux

Personally, I wouldn't buy the M340i or M240i even for the same price as the ITS because neither can be equipped with a manual anymore. They're both stupid fast, yes, but EVs are even stupider fast, so that novelty is a bit lost on me. Yes, having a stick shift is that important to me. For me, the only other competitor even remotely close in price is the CT4-V BW, which starts about $10K higher.

SamDoe1

Agreed. The manual is the ONLY reason to buy this car.

Which is why cars like the Golf R and the GTI are also good alternatives.

oonowindoo

if that justifies to pay close to 60k now for a ITS for you, then go buy it.

But for vast majority of the market, people just wont. it becomes the people who want the car can't afford it and people who can afford the car dont want it.

fiatlux

We already see people paying north of $60K for the CTR and there are still waiting lists at that price. Clearly there are enough people who want cars like this and are willing to pay more than "normal" people would deem reasonable. And frankly speaking, the vast majority of the market isn't going to be considering the ITS anyways since it's manual only. You might not like the pricing, but I fully expect that this will peel off quite a few folks on those CTR waiting lists if it means they can get this car now for the same price, or less. Even here in CA, some dealerships have committed to MSRP on this car; Oakland Acura for instance already confirmed that they'll be selling with no markups.

fiatlux

Normally I would agree except that the Golf R transmission is....not good. IIRC it's actually the same unit as the one in the GTI. It's bad enough and the DSG is good enough that I'd have a really hard time picking the 6MT over the DSG Golf R. And for that matter, I'd pick a manual CTR over a Golf R DSG any day of the week.

Whereas the CTR (and almost all Honda manuals for that matter) is magnificent. There are few things my right hand enjoys more than rowing through a Honda gearbox, and most of those other things would land me on a sex offender list.

SamDoe1

There are tradeoffs for everything though. You get a worse (by feel) manual Golf R but gain more power and AWD and build quality for less money compared to a CTR.

I personally didn't like the manual in the Golf R (mk7) myself either and got a DSG, absolutely loved it.

oonowindoo

That is like saying because Longo Toyota doesnt markup the GR Corolla, that means there is no markup for Corolla in general. Telling you there is no mark up and actually getting the car is 2 completely different things. Ask me how i know.

The will be far far far more people paying for the markup than no markup. So in reality ITS will never be the same price or less than a CTR. If there is, Acura failed.

RPhilMan1

My exact sentiments.

We'll see what my local Acura dealer tells me when they start getting allocations.