Acura: Development and Technology News
11-06-2009 | 05:44 PM
#2161
Return of the Ring
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,337
Likes: 39
Meh. I think the whole problem will be solved when they redesign the exteriors to something less fugly than the current parrot-beak crap, not to mention the Transformer-butt on the TL. Whoever called them "reliable Audis" a few pages back was right on the money. Hell, I went from an '01 A4 to an '04 TL and I think there's plenty of room in that market space, or there will be again once the industry (and the economy as a whole) recover. I'm kind of glad they dropped the "Tier 1 Luxury" pretense. Now they just need to lose the god-awful new exterior styling and all should be well again.
11-06-2009 | 06:48 PM
#2162
I'm the Firestarter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,072
Likes: 753
From: Ottawa
Now back to the auto world.
Sizewise, the TSX, the A4, the 3-series, and the C-class are all within the same size class; the TL, the A6, the 5-series, and the E-class roughly the same size class.
But pricewise, the TSX, the A3, the 1-series, and the B-class are all selling at around similar prices; the TL, the A4, the 3-series, the the C-class are at around similar prices.
Thus, Audi, BWM, and MB are all selling their products at a premium price, while, in comparison, Acura is selling the equivalent products at a bargain price.
Until the time when the TSX is carrying the same price tag as the A4, the 3-series, and the C-class, and when the TL the same price tag as the A6, the 5-series, and the E-class, then the Acura brand will be considered to be a luxury brand as for BMW and MB.
Sizewise, the TSX, the A4, the 3-series, and the C-class are all within the same size class; the TL, the A6, the 5-series, and the E-class roughly the same size class.
But pricewise, the TSX, the A3, the 1-series, and the B-class are all selling at around similar prices; the TL, the A4, the 3-series, the the C-class are at around similar prices.
Thus, Audi, BWM, and MB are all selling their products at a premium price, while, in comparison, Acura is selling the equivalent products at a bargain price.
Until the time when the TSX is carrying the same price tag as the A4, the 3-series, and the C-class, and when the TL the same price tag as the A6, the 5-series, and the E-class, then the Acura brand will be considered to be a luxury brand as for BMW and MB.
11-06-2009 | 08:48 PM
#2163
6G TLX-S
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,202
Likes: 1,162
From: YVR
This is the whole point. The Acura brand doesn't have enough "balls" to premium-price it's vehicles. The brand isn't luxury enough. In comparison, even though the true-luxury brands are selling their luxury cars with a smaller interior and at a premium pricing, car buyers are still more than happy to pay the extra money to buy them.
The moment when a brand is selling more for less, the brand image suffers. The more premium the brand is, the more it is selling less for more.
Last edited by Edward'TLS; 11-06-2009 at 08:51 PM.
11-09-2009 | 11:27 PM
#2164
Pro
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 608
Likes: 2
From: North by Northwest
After my test drive in the Genesis today it was every bit the car the 550 my dad and i drove but for 25k less. Both of us preferred the fit and finish of the Hyundai over the 5 series. There isnt a thing on the acura lot that comes close to size or quality in my eyes as the Hyundai. Acura has lost another battle, this time to Hyundai. They took the chance to be better why cant acura. Hell even the Azera was of good quality, as good fit and finish and materials as the TL.
11-10-2009 | 11:42 AM
#2165
Senior Moderator
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 81,383
Likes: 3,063
From: Appleton WI
11-12-2009 | 02:43 PM
#2166
Suzuka Master
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,802
Likes: 1,012
I could be wrong, but I think you are misreading their intent from what Ito said. He was backing off from early statements about being Tier 1 like Bently and Maybach. In the same statement he also reiterated Honda's intention to be more like BMW and Audi.
Reread it again and let me know if I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.
Reread it again and let me know if I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.
Ito said (with my thoughts below):
"a certain level of confusion" [about Acura]
(No shit. Acura is struggling for a unified identity, it's good that someone finally recognized this)
"We are in the midst of big changes. We've changed the direction of research and development."
(Nowhere does this say 'no Tier 1'. All is says is they're taking research elsewhere)
"I see the future of Acura as a merger of BMW and Audi--something between high technology and high performance."
(Let's dismiss the Bentley comments since they were never realistic. The real targets have always been BMW, Lexus and now Audi. I see no strategic change here, especially if the intelligentsia here consider these brands as "tier 1") )
"low-growth period of developing new products."
(Not good news. Earlier we were promised a new or revised model every 6 months. This now seems to be pushed to 1 year)
"We were thinking that we could come up with glamorous, gorgeous products that would sell. Now, our premium products will be expressed in advanced environmental technologies, rather than glamorous things attached to the product"
(Perhaps the most provocative statement. If 'glamorous' means "V-10" then it makes sense. They want to replace this as a status symbol with something different ie "advanced environmental technologies")
11-14-2009 | 07:21 PM
#2169
Senior Moderator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 20,020
Likes: 4,618
From: Cleveland area, OH
I was wondering when you'd chime in. I appreciate your doing so as your perspective is important in this discussion. Do you think Ito is the guy to pull things off for Acura? His candor is something we haven't seen in years from Honda. What do you think is the likelihood that his words will be followed with action?
I think people are either misunderstanding things (nothing new here when it comes to Acura communication and not necessarily our fault either) or twisting it to fit their agenda.
Ito said (with my thoughts below):
"a certain level of confusion" [about Acura]
(No shit. Acura is struggling for a unified identity, it's good that someone finally recognized this)
"We are in the midst of big changes. We've changed the direction of research and development."
(Nowhere does this say 'no Tier 1'. All is says is they're taking research elsewhere)
"I see the future of Acura as a merger of BMW and Audi--something between high technology and high performance."
(Let's dismiss the Bentley comments since they were never realistic. The real targets have always been BMW, Lexus and now Audi. I see no strategic change here, especially if the intelligentsia here consider these brands as "tier 1") )
"low-growth period of developing new products."
(Not good news. Earlier we were promised a new or revised model every 6 months. This now seems to be pushed to 1 year)
"We were thinking that we could come up with glamorous, gorgeous products that would sell. Now, our premium products will be expressed in advanced environmental technologies, rather than glamorous things attached to the product"
(Perhaps the most provocative statement. If 'glamorous' means "V-10" then it makes sense. They want to replace this as a status symbol with something different ie "advanced environmental technologies")
Ito said (with my thoughts below):
"a certain level of confusion" [about Acura]
(No shit. Acura is struggling for a unified identity, it's good that someone finally recognized this)
"We are in the midst of big changes. We've changed the direction of research and development."
(Nowhere does this say 'no Tier 1'. All is says is they're taking research elsewhere)
"I see the future of Acura as a merger of BMW and Audi--something between high technology and high performance."
(Let's dismiss the Bentley comments since they were never realistic. The real targets have always been BMW, Lexus and now Audi. I see no strategic change here, especially if the intelligentsia here consider these brands as "tier 1") )
"low-growth period of developing new products."
(Not good news. Earlier we were promised a new or revised model every 6 months. This now seems to be pushed to 1 year)
"We were thinking that we could come up with glamorous, gorgeous products that would sell. Now, our premium products will be expressed in advanced environmental technologies, rather than glamorous things attached to the product"
(Perhaps the most provocative statement. If 'glamorous' means "V-10" then it makes sense. They want to replace this as a status symbol with something different ie "advanced environmental technologies")
11-15-2009 | 10:30 PM
#2170
Suzuka Master
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,802
Likes: 1,012
I was wondering when you'd chime in. I appreciate your doing so as your perspective is important in this discussion. Do you think Ito is the guy to pull things off for Acura? His candor is something we haven't seen in years from Honda. What do you think is the likelihood that his words will be followed with action?
IMO, Ito needs to work on getting our volume back up, clarify what the brand stands for and inspire confidence in the distribution and dealer network. As someone else pointed out, they're not running a 'car club' they're running a business. If they can get everybody profitable, then they can work on some fun stuff (that generates interest, but doesn't really sell in volume).
11-19-2009 | 04:45 PM
#2172
99 TL, 06 E350
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,030
Likes: 164
From: Toronto
Bring back the idea that brought us the 1999 TL and Legend. Go back to they're grass roots and watch sales go up. Anytime any company complicates they're product sales will go down. Get rid of the accountants and bring back the real designers.
11-22-2009 | 01:09 AM
#2173
My only car is a Bus
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,254
Likes: 1
From: Republik of Kalifornia
Acura: Grille Kit Speculation
I heard there will soon be a "grille kit" out for the Acura products. Obviously corporate HQ knows there's a serious problem. Let's hope the "cure" won't be worse than the current disease.
11-22-2009 | 01:54 AM
#2174
2010 TL AWD 6MT: New King
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,821
Likes: 165
From: WA
That's interesting news.
I wonder if it'll be similar to Ron Jon's aftermarket grill.
I don't mind the grill that much, esp since I feel my exterior's silver color blends in with the current OEM grill fairly well. Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing some other alternatives/options.
It wouldn't hurt if Acura offered it as a "freebie" as a goodwill gesture
I wonder if it'll be similar to Ron Jon's aftermarket grill.
I don't mind the grill that much, esp since I feel my exterior's silver color blends in with the current OEM grill fairly well. Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing some other alternatives/options.
It wouldn't hurt if Acura offered it as a "freebie" as a goodwill gesture
Last edited by docboy; 11-22-2009 at 01:58 AM.
11-22-2009 | 09:34 AM
#2177
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,260
Likes: 245
From: PA
I heard it too from my local service manager. I think its going to be a snap on piece...whether or not its better or worse remains to be seen. I know most people hate the grill but what about the tail end of the car. Any aftermarket mods for that ugly part of the car ?
Oh btw...Silver on the 2010 TL is the best color. It does the best job to blend in the awkwar looking parts on the front and back end.
Oh btw...Silver on the 2010 TL is the best color. It does the best job to blend in the awkwar looking parts on the front and back end.
11-22-2009 | 01:33 PM
#2179
Senior Moderator
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 14,667
Likes: 13
From: NY
Interesting. I actually hope this means they're thinking about re-doing the grille entirely fairly soon. I don't mind it so much on the TSX, but the TL, RL, and RDX are atrocious. IMO, some sort of snap-on piece will not fix the TL's grille. You have to get rid of the entire top bucktooth portion of that grille for it to look better. I hate how it goes into the hood. A snap-on piece will not fix that, I don't think.
11-22-2009 | 01:39 PM
#2180
My only car is a Bus
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,254
Likes: 1
From: Republik of Kalifornia
Let's just say I heard it from someone who knows people with Acura and leave it at that. In the coming months I think you will see that this is a true statement. I was told Acura "is working on a grille kit."
It still won't fix the butt on the TL which, when the tail or brake lights are off, bears an uncanny resemblance to the Joker.
It still won't fix the butt on the TL which, when the tail or brake lights are off, bears an uncanny resemblance to the Joker.
11-22-2009 | 03:07 PM
#2181
Suzuka Master
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,802
Likes: 1,012
I agree. You'd need a body color insert to accomplish that and I can already see the color match complaints. Hopefully they won't try that now. IMO, a 'black chrome' color would help lessen the impact on a darker color car. Maybe at MMC they can work on re-doing the bodywork to make the piece over the headlight continue in one piece (from fender to fender) and then get the grill below the cut line like in the TSX.
11-22-2009 | 06:08 PM
#2183
My only car is a Bus
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,254
Likes: 1
From: Republik of Kalifornia
11-22-2009 | 07:23 PM
#2184
Some dude
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,605
Likes: 347
From: Chicagoland
Subaru ditched their grille after just two vehicles (Impreza, Tribeca). I think if Acura was going to do the same they would have by now. I'm hoping they at least modify the shield so that its smaller and not attached to the top portion of the grille.
11-22-2009 | 08:22 PM
#2185
Senior Moderator
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 47,710
Likes: 801
From: Toronto, Canada
IMO the only grilles that need fixing are the TL and ZDX. Moreso the TL. I actually don't mind it on the RDX, nicer than the one it had and I really like it on the MDX. Like its been mentioned, just cut out the part that goes into the hood.
11-22-2009 | 09:24 PM
#2186
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,181
Likes: 2
From: DFW
Let me explain this.
Ever since the advent of automobiles and right up to the beginning of 2008, there existed only 3 brands of auto class, namely the exotic brand, the luxury brand, and the economy brand. So any auto brand name which didn't belong to the exotic or luxury brand was automatically classified as economy brand. Everything was simple and clear then.
However, during the Detroit auto show in Jan. of 2008, then Honda CEO Takeo Fukui invented the word "Tier-1" to be used when delivering his speech.
Here's the background information. When Honda set up it's "luxury" auto division in 1986, it would never have dreamed that even after 23 years, the Acura brand still failed to achieve the recognition as a TRUE luxury auto brand. (Simply do a search will find all articles in 1986 stated that Honda created Acura as it's LUXURY division.) Thus, it was already acknowledged 23 years ago that the Acura brand was going after BMW and MB which were the luxury brands at that time.
As of now, the Acura brand still remains to be recognized as the wannabe-luxury brand from Honda.
However, Lexus has succeeded, with it's V8-RWD flagship accompanied with MB luxury-mobile styling cues. Acura had none and still has none !
So in 2008, after Mr. Fukui realized that it's "supposingly luxury" Acura brand was still far from gaining the luxury brand status, he invented a jargon word, "Tier-1", to cause distraction from his failure with the Acura brand. He used the word "Tier-1" luxury to describe BMW and MB, but made no attempt to clarify how this "Tier" system was determined nor to specify what "Tier" (Tier-2?, Tier-3?, Tier-4?) the wannabe-luxury Acura brand was currently at.
His sole purpose was to try to confuse people in thinking that the Acura brand was already at the some lower end scale of the luxury status, in order to cover up the fact that the Acura brand was not a TRUE luxury brand at all.
So it's not a surprise that you can hardly find any other reference to "Tier" naming/system other than from Honda/Acura.
As of today, Honda/Acura is the sole auto company using this "Tier" naming/system to gauge luxury brands. No other auto maker on earth has followed suit to use this peculiar Honda/Acura way of gauging luxury brands. Why should they ? There are always luxury brands and economy brands. Not many auto brands are getting stuck in between, selling product packages not premium enough to achieve luxury status, but expensive enough to be excluded from the economy status. Poor Acura !
Ever since the advent of automobiles and right up to the beginning of 2008, there existed only 3 brands of auto class, namely the exotic brand, the luxury brand, and the economy brand. So any auto brand name which didn't belong to the exotic or luxury brand was automatically classified as economy brand. Everything was simple and clear then.
However, during the Detroit auto show in Jan. of 2008, then Honda CEO Takeo Fukui invented the word "Tier-1" to be used when delivering his speech.
Here's the background information. When Honda set up it's "luxury" auto division in 1986, it would never have dreamed that even after 23 years, the Acura brand still failed to achieve the recognition as a TRUE luxury auto brand. (Simply do a search will find all articles in 1986 stated that Honda created Acura as it's LUXURY division.) Thus, it was already acknowledged 23 years ago that the Acura brand was going after BMW and MB which were the luxury brands at that time.
As of now, the Acura brand still remains to be recognized as the wannabe-luxury brand from Honda.
However, Lexus has succeeded, with it's V8-RWD flagship accompanied with MB luxury-mobile styling cues. Acura had none and still has none !
So in 2008, after Mr. Fukui realized that it's "supposingly luxury" Acura brand was still far from gaining the luxury brand status, he invented a jargon word, "Tier-1", to cause distraction from his failure with the Acura brand. He used the word "Tier-1" luxury to describe BMW and MB, but made no attempt to clarify how this "Tier" system was determined nor to specify what "Tier" (Tier-2?, Tier-3?, Tier-4?) the wannabe-luxury Acura brand was currently at.
His sole purpose was to try to confuse people in thinking that the Acura brand was already at the some lower end scale of the luxury status, in order to cover up the fact that the Acura brand was not a TRUE luxury brand at all.
So it's not a surprise that you can hardly find any other reference to "Tier" naming/system other than from Honda/Acura.
As of today, Honda/Acura is the sole auto company using this "Tier" naming/system to gauge luxury brands. No other auto maker on earth has followed suit to use this peculiar Honda/Acura way of gauging luxury brands. Why should they ? There are always luxury brands and economy brands. Not many auto brands are getting stuck in between, selling product packages not premium enough to achieve luxury status, but expensive enough to be excluded from the economy status. Poor Acura !
11-22-2009 | 09:47 PM
#2187
Advanced
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 82
Likes: 2
Just found this report on Honda's product plans. Seems like a completely different direction from where Toyota is headed. Not exactly good news for those who were hoping the NSX project may someday be resurrected.
Toyota, Honda go separate ways on sports cars
<SCRIPT>queryvar="toyota,honda,go,separate,ways,on ,sports,cars";</SCRIPT>October 21, 2009 - 8:00 am ET
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>
CHIBA, Japan (Reuters) -- Japanese archrivals Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. have just found something else to disagree about: sports cars.
At the Tokyo Motor Show today, Toyota took the wraps off the Lexus LFA, a two-seater supercar with a roaring 4.8-liter V10 engine that can reach speeds of 325 km per hour (200 miles per hour) and go from zero to 100 kilometers kph (60 mph) in 3.7 seconds.
It's a car that flies in the face of the automaker's image as a pioneer of greener vehicles but one that Toyota's new boss, Akio Toyoda, says is crucial for cars to remain a product that consumers can get excited about as motorization spreads to more corners of the world.
Toyota, the world's biggest automaker, is planning to limit LFA production to 500 units, between December 2010 and December 2012, taking orders for the $375,000 car starting today.
"It's our mission as automakers to offer cars that possess the 'fun' spirit that should be at the base of any car," Toyota President Akio Toyoda said at the unveiling, noting he had been involved in the LFA's development from its early stages.
The old-fashioned way
Ask his counterpart at Honda, though, and the LFA is old-fashioned. The future, Takanobu Ito says, is about clean, sustainable cars, and sports cars are no exception.
"Sure, there are folks who like that 'vroom' of the engine out of nostalgia," Ito told Reuters earlier this month. "But those people are stuck in the past."
Japan's No.2 automaker had been preparing a successor model for its legendary NSX sports car, also with a V10 engine, but ditched those plans last year citing an urgent need to save money amid the economic downturn and the growing consumer shift toward greener cars.
"The era of V10 engines is gone," said Ito, who betrayed no sense of regret over the canned project despite having designed the ground-breaking all-aluminum body on the NSX back in 1990.
Zero-emission sports car?
Ito has other ideas for what a sports car for the next generation could look like: a zero-emission fuel-cell car like Honda's FCX Clarity, which is currently on lease in limited numbers in the United States and Japan.
Honda has never billed the sleek, hydrogen-powered sedan as a sports car, but Ito said it had all the characteristics to qualify.
"It's light because it's not weighed down by a ton of batteries," he said in a jab at the battery-powered electric sports machines built by U.S. start-up Tesla Motors.
"When you weigh a car down like that, it undermines the characteristics of a sports car.
"But if you have a light car like the FCX Clarity that's powered by a motor, you get maximum torque from a zero start and acceleration is incredible. In a way, that's a sports car."
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Source: Autmotive News
http://www.autonews.com/article/2009...910219995/1171
Toyota, Honda go separate ways on sports cars
<SCRIPT>queryvar="toyota,honda,go,separate,ways,on ,sports,cars";</SCRIPT>October 21, 2009 - 8:00 am ET
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>
CHIBA, Japan (Reuters) -- Japanese archrivals Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. have just found something else to disagree about: sports cars.
At the Tokyo Motor Show today, Toyota took the wraps off the Lexus LFA, a two-seater supercar with a roaring 4.8-liter V10 engine that can reach speeds of 325 km per hour (200 miles per hour) and go from zero to 100 kilometers kph (60 mph) in 3.7 seconds.
It's a car that flies in the face of the automaker's image as a pioneer of greener vehicles but one that Toyota's new boss, Akio Toyoda, says is crucial for cars to remain a product that consumers can get excited about as motorization spreads to more corners of the world.
Toyota, the world's biggest automaker, is planning to limit LFA production to 500 units, between December 2010 and December 2012, taking orders for the $375,000 car starting today.
"It's our mission as automakers to offer cars that possess the 'fun' spirit that should be at the base of any car," Toyota President Akio Toyoda said at the unveiling, noting he had been involved in the LFA's development from its early stages.
The old-fashioned way
Ask his counterpart at Honda, though, and the LFA is old-fashioned. The future, Takanobu Ito says, is about clean, sustainable cars, and sports cars are no exception.
"Sure, there are folks who like that 'vroom' of the engine out of nostalgia," Ito told Reuters earlier this month. "But those people are stuck in the past."
Japan's No.2 automaker had been preparing a successor model for its legendary NSX sports car, also with a V10 engine, but ditched those plans last year citing an urgent need to save money amid the economic downturn and the growing consumer shift toward greener cars.
"The era of V10 engines is gone," said Ito, who betrayed no sense of regret over the canned project despite having designed the ground-breaking all-aluminum body on the NSX back in 1990.
Zero-emission sports car?
Ito has other ideas for what a sports car for the next generation could look like: a zero-emission fuel-cell car like Honda's FCX Clarity, which is currently on lease in limited numbers in the United States and Japan.
Honda has never billed the sleek, hydrogen-powered sedan as a sports car, but Ito said it had all the characteristics to qualify.
"It's light because it's not weighed down by a ton of batteries," he said in a jab at the battery-powered electric sports machines built by U.S. start-up Tesla Motors.
"When you weigh a car down like that, it undermines the characteristics of a sports car.
"But if you have a light car like the FCX Clarity that's powered by a motor, you get maximum torque from a zero start and acceleration is incredible. In a way, that's a sports car."
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Source: Autmotive News
http://www.autonews.com/article/2009...910219995/1171
11-22-2009 | 09:56 PM
#2188
IF this is a rumor its being talked about everywhere.. When I was at my dealer on sat my sales person who is about to buy a new car said they are waiting for the redesigned grill before buying.
11-22-2009 | 11:16 PM
#2189
Senior Moderator
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 47,710
Likes: 801
From: Toronto, Canada
Stuck in the past? Where's the present and future Honda? Until they actually produce something for us to move into the future with, I think it would be a good idea to keep your mouth shut. Sounds like a ton or sour grapes and bitterness trying to dis-credit the LF-A.
11-23-2009 | 04:09 AM
#2192
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 24
From: Richmond, BC
I think he's missing the point of the LF-A. Sure, it's a very quick car, but their main reason for having it is to test out their new CF looms - and not just because they intend to release a car that can compete with Ferrari/Lamborghini. If they actually manage to make production of full CF parts affordable, it could pave the way for a new age of lightweight sports cars.
Sounds like we're heading towards a future where Scion will have a sportier lineup than Honda. 
11-23-2009 | 09:21 AM
#2195
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 14,391
Likes: 634
From: Alexandria, VA
This whole notion of luxury and economy brand is bogus. You have to get down to the model level to even consider such a thing and it's totally subjective. Sure, to some badge snob a BMW 328 might be "better" than a Hyundai Genesis or a TL, but not to anyone who objectively looks at the individual car.
11-23-2009 | 09:45 AM
#2197
sounds like honda is bitter that toyota-the most boring and uninspiring car company when it comes to driving experiece- beat them to the supercar range.
now honda is taking the bench bitching about how their FCX clarity is a sports car.
just like a fucking ricer in a CRX whining after getting spanked by a mustang
now honda is taking the bench bitching about how their FCX clarity is a sports car.
just like a fucking ricer in a CRX whining after getting spanked by a mustang
