Rocketsfan

Hey weather, I hope you don't think I was singling you out or anything in my previous comments. I was just saying that every new technology seems to be something "way out there" that isn't really needed and eventually it becomes part of standard equipment that nobody thinks about. Cars are slowly getting more and more computerized. Eventually we'll live in an autonomous car society and we'll be a bunch of old grandpas talking about "the good ol' days" and how back in our day we didn't need fancy flying cars. We had WHEELS!

And your English is fine.

weather

^^ No worries at all. I didn't feel targeted or singled out....I just wanted to clarify a few things. People were making some really good points about the new technology in today's cars and wanted to add that I am not "anti-technology" per se, but just a very specific type of technology. Again, I haven't really embraced the new age of iphones/cell phones and all the "apps" world. In many ways, cars have made leaps and bound forward, and in some, they haven't.

BTW...I appreciate your clarification and reaching out to make me feel "non targeted"....and the kind words regarding my English. I try my best to articulate my position as best I can but realize I am far from being perfectly fluent....but I am trying

Glashub

A golden opportunity for Acura. Amongst all of the other problems Infiniti is having with the Q50 -- now it appears they are calling some owners to tell them not to drive their car because of problems with the DAS that could endanger their lives. Must be so sad to see your new car being towed away.

KeithL

Never did like Infinit electronics and to trust them to solely steer they car without any mechanical linkage, not a chance. While I like Infiniti I think they have made several mis-steps in recent years. The re-badging, Q50 issues, nothing to compete with CLA or A3 or even Acura ILX. And to keep the G around for low end only confuses the consumer.

Rocketsfan

Last I read a few days ago, there were about 40 cars affected, but the gravity of the situation didn't dawn on me until I watched a guy driving a car straight by holding the steering wheel crooked. Man, I wanted to buy that car. But I think I'm done for now with it unless they make a miraculous comeback with fixes.

Edward'TLS

That sounds pretty scary. He could have driven straight into a retaining wall upon highway exits.

KeithL

2012-2013 Audi A6 had weird steering issues where car would loose on center and you would have to keep correcting because the steering near center would feel notchy. All the manufacturers can have problem debugging the intricate electronics that keep the entire car driveable today. I almost did not order my A6 because they only fixed it since the 14's came out and update software on older cars.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

The EPS systems of the TL and the A6 have a permanent mechanical linkage connecting the steering wheel to the motor-assisted steering rack. This is the surest fail-safe system, because in the worst case there is simply no power assist.

But in the case of the Nissan DAS, the multiple redundancy fail-safe mechanisms are all controlled by computers, which we all know how safe that can be when glitches do occur.

KeithL

True, bad enough throttle is fly by wire, I am not comfortable with steering that way. Audi has been fighting gremlins in their EPS that makes some feel uneasy and unsafe at times, can't imagine DAS failing and the clutch not kicking in.

BEAR-AvHistory

Fly by wire has been in general use since the early 1970's with the development of the F-16. If the redundant computers fail it falls out of the sky like a stone. It can fly with no engine but not without its computers. So this is not new tech.

On cars its the implementation that sucks in most all the cases where there are problems. My TL's throttle was sucky but the BMW's is very good. That being said with the electronic steering BMW has lost all its road feel with a poor implementation.

George Knighton

I have noticed when driving TL and MDX that they sometimes don't have a perfect on-centre feel to them, and they will seem to react much faster to a driver's input than an uninitiated driver might expect.

They almost drive like a race car with an aggressive alignment, if you know what I mean.

Not sure if this is a steering design issue, or simply something you have to get used to with SH-AWD.

But I notice it with two radically different vehicles.

BEAR-AvHistory

Some cars steering input/output is speed sensitive. Could be that?

Edward'TLS

A F-16 costs ~$15 million each, and a couple pf F-16's did fall out of the sky so far operating all over the world.

The F-16 analogy is only true if each DAS vehicle costs a million $ a piece similar to the F-16.

The Mil-specs computers/controllers/electronics/hydraulics/actuators used in military applications are all radiation-hardened and adhere to the strictest military specifications. Only if Nissan decides to put such into it's DAS vehicle, which will then considered to be truly fail-safe.

jim_c

And I understand some are working on brake by wire also. (?)
Anyone up on that? Just curious.

weather

^^ God help us if cars become so automated that all we do is sit and get driven by computers. Its bad enough all my decisions are made by my g/f! (lol)

Edward'TLS

..... and to others, by their wives !

BEAR-AvHistory

Tech has come a long way & your phone most likely has more power than the space shuttle or moon lander. What took a few bread boxes when the F-16 came out can be put on a small chip so I have no issue with the compare.

BEAR-AvHistory

Tech has come a long way & your phone most likely has more power than the space shuttle or moon lander. What took a few bread boxes when the F-16 came out can be put on a small chip so I have no issue with the compare. The Russian Tupolev ANT-20 in the 1930 had the basics with the removal of hydraulic & mechanical systems & running the control surfaces by signals along electric wires.

Nothing in a car is cutting edge but an application of existing tech, in some cases the programming is not so hot. You can get automated collision avoidance system in a Chevy now-a-days for $300 that uses high resolution camera's instead of radar like the more expensive cars.

Wanna take a shot at how much that tech would cost in the 1970's?

draph

My biggest concern about Acura Tech will be the day when some Honda Marketing executive decides holding over "old tech" manual transmissions "doesn't properly align" with the technology image the Acura brand is trying to convey. I suspect that is why the Q50 dropped the MT option of the G37S. After all, computer driven dual clutch transmissions are, indeed, faster and more efficient; and "most" drivers feel sufficiently engaged with the car if paddle shifters are offered, even with Software acting as a middleman between you and the transmission.

I may be a dying breed of buyer in the US; but I am determined the last car I ever buy new will have a true 3-pedal manual transmission, unless I break my left hip before I'm too old to stop driving...

Given you still can only get an Accord coupe V6 with MT, I'm still hoping that's a sign the one Honda V6 sedan offered with an MT will still be the TLX. If the MT TLX won't exist, then the Accord Touring sedan should add an MT to the options list.

vbx

To bad they don't have one in stock in the US. lol

I thought about ordering one, but they have zero in stock in the US. Test drove the auto and it was a nice ride. Would be better if it was manual.

The EX-L V6 with manual transmission has to be special ordered and it's a 2-3 month wait.

Edward'TLS

Rather than side-stepping the topic to something completely irrelevant, let me stress my point on the danger of using purely computers to replace direct mechanical linkages.

It is true that an automobile controller might pack enough processing power to go to Mars and back, but this is not about processing power. This is about fault tolerance, bugs/glitches occurrence, and firmware stability.

Military contractors use computer/electronics hardware, that has been RADIATION HARDENED and MILITARY SPECIFICATIONS compliance. Firmware development must adhere to MIL-STD-498 (Military-Standard-498). System testing another Mil-specs standard, and so on.

Strictly speaking, US military products can achieve as high a fail-safe fault tolerance level that money can buy.

In comparison, consumer electronics (automobile included) don't have to and will never go through such an overkill military cycle development process and such an elaborate overkill military standard product testing.

Thus, consumer automobile will NEVER enjoy the same level of fault tolerance safe-guard as US military products.

MtnMan

Um....

COMPUTER-OPERATED CAR TRANSPORTS PA. CONGRESSMAN
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/compu...pa-congressman

Self-driving cars now legal in California
http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/25/tech/i...r-california/4

How Google's robo-cars mean the end of driving as we know it
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57...as-we-know-it/

A-Spec-Fan

It probably won't happen but when the new TL comes out i would like it to be similar to the 04-08 styling as to me that was the best looking generation. I would have also liked to see it come in a type-s trim with a 6-speed manual tranny cause lets face it, purists still love to row their own gears.

George Knighton

I kind of doubt it. My TL SH-AWD 6-6 is impressive coming out of VIR's Oak Tree (but there's no tree there anymore). However, it is kind of wander-y and maybe even twitchy to the point of being uncomfortable on both the front straight and the back straight.

And while I'm certainly not the world's greatest or fastest driver, I'm not entirely uninitiated in the behaviors of cars that will do 130 - 180 at VIR.

This is obviously an extreme example and it's not going to stop me from waiting in great anticipation the arrival of the RLX SH-AWD and, if I don't like that, then next year's TLX SH-AWD.

:-)

BEAR-AvHistory

You have a lap time on the grand circuit that Lightning Laps uses for your the TL?

BEAR-AvHistory

Just a few things non-mechanical linkage throttle by wire has been in use since the last century. The newer BMW's don't even have a throttle plate that can be snapped shut with a spring on a fail. BTW I had a spring fail at a bit over 100MPH in my Corvette at Raceway Park in Englishtown so mechanical systems are no guaranty either. Shut the engine down but it started dieseling so I had to also kill the electric fuel pump to starve it.

There is a big difference in the requirements between Mil-Spec & anything really needed in civilian applications. No need for EMP proof hardened systems, key is redunancy. Was a Senior Tracked Vehicle Recovery mechanic & dealt with Mil-Spec electronics in Main battle tanks & APC’s. Some electric powered fork lifts are using steer by wire, not electric power steering, with no physical connection between the steering & road wheels.

What you do need is a 4 ECU’s in a dual duplex fault tolerant system which I don’t see as an issue in a car that already has over 100 processors in it. Think about the current collision avoidance systems already applying the brakes & take it a few years down the road. The Ford Focus not exactly a bucks up car has a system available that if you start to drift out of lane the steering wheel shakes, like a stick shaker stall warning in a plane, & if you don’t respond it actually steers the car back into lane by itself.

George Knighton

I've never even been on Grand!

North and Full are the two courses that I was on. On Full, I am embarrassed to say 3:20's. Like I said, I'm not the world's best or fastest driver by any stretch.

My K24 ITR track car was a bit quicker. :-)

Summit Point is where I learned to drive.

George Knighton

And I'm also not sure that I know what Lightning Laps is. Is that something to do with Brock Yates?

Edward'TLS

What happened to the 4 ECU’s in a dual duplex fault tolerant system for the Q50's DAS ?

This is about firmware bugs/glitches/stability, that no amount of ECU units can rectify.

BEAR-AvHistory

Just notice 180mph at VIR. WOW That must have been a ride and a half. My car stock is lucky to get to 135mph @ VIR during NC chapter BMWCCA events.

Have not been there with the upgrades, but would only expect a few more MPH. The 135 & 335 need airport runs to stretch their legs but 165mph or so is about it in a 1/2 mile.

BEAR-AvHistory

Think we are beating a dead horse here. Poor programing will cause issues but at the end of the day cars are currently successfully using various DBW technologies, even very inexpensive cars.

You would think based on these posts that basic mechanical systems have never failed.

George Knighton

If you're talking about an SH-AWD TL, that sounds about right. Or did you mean one of your BMW?

Might look like 140 on the TL speedometer, but I am sure it's not.

Do you top out on both the front and back straights?

Whatever it is that makes me feel the SH-AWD is a little sensitive at very high speeds makes me timid about wanting to go faster in it. 135-140 in that big car is just fine.

BEAR-AvHistory

Nope, talking about the 335 on the straight going into the Horseshoe. 140mph+ is Corvette & Porsche 911 speed through that section & very hard on the brakes.

Lightning Laps is:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...t-laps-feature

Been running for 7 years now so they have a good data base with the expected variances for weather year to year. Its run on the Grand East course at a bit over 4 miles a circuit. Unfortunately they have never had a TL run that's why I asked about your laps their. But since you run one of the other layouts there is no way to place the TL into a proper perspective.

KeithL

There is a difference between throttle by wire and steer by wire. If the throttle fails it will either not accelerate of maybe full accelerate, as we learned from Toyota some manufactures will have the brake override whatever the throttle is telling the ECU. Either way I would rather have a runaway throttle than a car I can not steer!

BEAR-AvHistory

The brake override function is counting on the ECU to be smart enough to realize that its has a problem to deal with & then actually taking remedial action. Goes back to basic auto software 101. If this can work & collision avoidance works & the computer can steer a Focus back into lane why can't other software dealing with stopping & steering work just as well?

Again we can beat this to death but at some point, I don't personally believe all that far into the future we will have steer by wire & brake by wire in everyday use. Shuttles trains at the airports already have no drivers but no one ever thinks about it. People really hang their hats on what they have & sometimes its not what they think. Remember replacing a steering post connectors on a no power steering car.

The connector which sat between the post attached to the steering wheel & the stub post attached to the steering box was a three piece thingy.

It was a circular sandwich with upper & lower steel plates & a composition piece that was very similar to the cord/rubber section of a tire in between. 4 bolts connected the shafts 2 bolts into the top & two into the bottom with the composition piece carrying the steering load. They could & did tear over time & the fail safe was over long bolts hitting a raised section of the other metal disk or two long studs to do the same thing. The studs could & did shear & a sloppy mechanic could replace the long bolts with shorter ones during service.

Life has risks & most can be managed but sitting still for the status quo has never been a good human trait.

BEAR-AvHistory

BTW for anyone interested this is what George Knighton & I are talking about. Vid is a lap around the full course at Virginia International Raceway (VIR) in a Vette @ 2.24. per lap. The weird looking car infront of the Vette is the Atom like was talked about in another post about people over driving things they should not be driving.

BEAR-AvHistory

Sorry put the wrong cut up one I though I posted was only 2.36 or so.

BEAR-AvHistory

The short version

jshaw

Neither has blindly rushing into a pointless endeavor. Luckily for Nissan, this system has a point.

Brakes are still purely mechanical. Mercedes tried software brakes, then wisely stopped doing it. They are power assisted, there are sensors to detect if you have pushed the brake pedal, however, the entire setup is still mechanical (well, hydraulic). Even if the brake booster loses all pressure, the driver can still jam on the brakes.

If a purely electrical steering system fails, there is no innate mechanical failsafe. One has to be engineered into the system, and the mechanical linkage is against the primary point of a purely electrical system: packaging. A mechanical linkage still has to contend with different engine bay layouts (longitudinal, transverse - the latter has to contend with transmission placement), suspension layouts (where the steering rack connects to the wheels), left/right hand drive markets. Even tilt/telescoping tillers change the requirements. The primary reason for a purely electrical system is to rid of the mechanical link. Given my poor experiences with Nissan and their sloppy engineering execution, I won't be interested in this system until someone else also picks up this technology.

A final note on that BMW throttle plate. Most cars (if not all in the US market) have software controlled throttles. However, even the BMW "throttleless" valvetrain setups still have a backup throttle plate. I know my X5 has one (N55). {EDIT} It's not really a backup, actually. I know it's used in the cold start-up phase of the engine, since the "infinitely variable" valvetrain they use has a limited, and directly relative, range of timing and lift adjustments.

Edward'TLS

Ding! Ding! Ding! You hit the nail right on it's head.

We are trying to learn from why the horse has dropped dead prematurely.

All ECU's/controllers need firmware (= program codes for hardware) to be able to function.

So even if Nissan has 100 ECU's in a decuple decplex fault tolerant system, poor/glitchy firmware programming (for the ECU's) is still gonna cause terminal failure when all the right conditions are met for glitches to pop up.

But why US military products (e.g., the F-16 you brought up) are so reliable, comparatively speaking, because there are Military Standards that contractors must strictly adhere to in firmware development, firmware verification/testing, and system integration, in order to minimize, if not eliminate, firmware bugs/glitches.

In addition, multiple levels of redundancy in firmware programming are required in critical operation sub-systems, to safeguard firmware from causing unintentional faults and runaway issues.

All these involve considerably resources (manpower, time, and $) which not only adds unnecessary cost but is also an overkill for developing consumer products such as automobiles.

Not even the biggest motor company in Japan (Toyota) develops it's products using US military standards, let alone the smallish Nissan Motor Co.

But I must admit that mechanical systems do also fail at times. But when they fail, it is because some parts broke.

But when poor/glitchy programming causing ECU's to fail, more than likely it is a random come-and-go process, and is extremely hard to replicate. Good luck trying to show randomly occurring faults to dealership techs.

Worst still is that everything will go back normal afterwards, only lurking until the next failure to hit home, when all the right firmware-program-flow conditions are met once again to cause another glitch in the unknown future.