libert69

iTrader: (7)

I gotta work on my hand shaking. Even with the anti-shake on, it still jumps around. I just need more practice.

Right now I only have the amsoil universal atf in there. I bought 6 quarts of amsoils super shift atf but I have not put it in yet.

I had both videos running at the same time and I just made of video of those 2 videos. I had to play both vids a few times to find the right starting points. If you pause the comparision vid when you reach around 4.5k rpms, youll see that my tach is around 5.5k rpms. If you continue from there, you can clearly see that you start to close the gap real fast.

Im no where near as fast as you. Just pause the vid in a few different spots as its playing and you see the difference in rpms.

BradE

The constant sales pitch, and "that's properity information" crap, that Amsoil spews all the time is what turned me off of their products. The whole thing reeks. At least with Redline they will actually answer your questions, which is more than I can say for Amsoil.

Inaccurate

UPDATE


I did the second installment of the racing fluid today.

Drained and added 3 quarts of RedLine Lightweight Racing ATF.

Initial impressions after a 10-minute test drive
- Still have zero shudder.
- I detected nothing unusual or strange.

I will post an update on Tuesday. By Tuesday, I will had a complete commute (morning and afternoon) with the fluid. Whereas, this post is based upon a quick 10-minute test drive.

At this point in time, I am thinking that I might eventually be running straight racing fluid. With this second flush today, this puts me at 63% racing fluid.

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

If a transmission is currently shifting/performing perfectly is there reason to believe it may soon fail?

Mine was replaced 12/05 under the recall, it currently is at 108k.

I replaced the solenoids 5/17 and about 11k ago.

I am just afraid to take chances with a transmission that has already beaten the odds.

I hate cars

I completely understand your reservations about changing the fluid or fixing something that's not broken.

Changing to the type F fluid will very likely decrease clutch pack wear and extend the life of the trans.

The only thing you many want to do differently is if the fluid hasn't been changed in a very long time to introduce the new fluid slowly. Do a drain and fill, drive it for a week or two and do another drain and fill. This is being overly cautious and isn't really necessary but it will lessen the chances of 90% new fluid abruptly cleaning stuff and causing problems.

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

Thanks for the quick response. The fluid and external filter have been changed twice in the last 30k. Once a year ago February and again last month when I replaced the motor with a Frankenstein Ody J35A4/CLS/RL 3.6.

The last time the TC was fully drained as well as the trans.

The current Z1 has <1k on it.

Thanks

I hate cars

This is very good to hear. Any noticable change in speed or firmness since the last drain and fill?

I'm interested in the dead cold shifting performance since the computer does full power shifts. This seems to be the easiest way to get an idea of the amount of FM in the fluid.

I've noticed shifts are just a hair firmer when cold with the D4 over the Amsoil ATD but my experience follows yours, not a whole lot of difference in normal driving. I think the DBW keeps the feel somewhat steady even though the shifts are quicker.

Any change in engagement time say going from park to reverse or park to drive with the thinner less FM fluid?

I have a nice hill on my commute to do the TC shudder test. It's pretty steep and long. I keep it in 5th gear and give it throttle until it unlocks. Then I let off the gas just enough to let it lock again but still under heavy load. Total time to full lock is about 2 seconds so it's a great test. If it doesn't shudder under heavy throttle during a slow lock, it's not going to shudder ever. This will be my first test after the type F goes in.

Looking forward to your next report.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Is there any chance of the redline D4/amsoil synthetic atf not mixing properly with the type F fluid and possibly separating when cold?

Inaccurate

Both Amsoil and RedLine are claimed by the manufacturers to be fully compatible with other ATF (petroleum base and synthetic). In general for all typical engine oils and ATF's, PAO base oils are compatible with mineral base oils.

The Amsoil and RedLine are most likely the same synthetic material (PAO). There are much more things similar between the Amsoil and RedLine ATF than there are differences between the two.

I would have zero fear of the Amsoil and RedLine having mixing problems (including seperation). I have no fears even with the Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF being fully compatible with the RedLine. And, there is a big difference between the Mobil 1 and the RedLine (base on my impression, not any facts).

While searching with google, I had not seen any mixing problems with ATF's.

Inaccurate

UPDATE



I want to preface this post with the following. The changes that are described are subjective. One person could describe the changes as "night versus day". Another person could say "what? I feel nothing".

One person could describe it as "firm shifting". Whereas the other person would be complaining of "neck whiplash".

It is all relative/subjective. I now feel that even the video is not able to quantify the difference. I went back to listen to my trans in the "TL Diet Videos" (racing) thread. I could not discern a difference in the new versus old videos of how my trans shifts. Whereas in real life, the difference is huge to *me*. Thus, I have no videos of the second fluid change.



On to the show ...

The best way to describe the way the trans now feels is "authoritative". The shifts are super quick. The clutches engage with authority. Even moving the gear selector from Park to Drive feels authoritative. The transmission displays a performance personality. Instead of the "Driving Miss Daisy" transmission, I now feel a transmission that is sure of itself in everything that it does. Authoritative.

Before doing the second change, I was thinking that the shifts would not become any quicker. How could they? The shifts seem so quick after that first change. I couldn't imagine the shift occurring any quicker. But, they did become quicker after the second change. If the shifts become any more quick, they will be non-existent (joking).

The engine braking has not increased any more.

The clutches are more grabby. For the first time ever, I had my Reverse gear grab, and it grabbed firmly, as I was moving the gear selector from Park into Drive. As the selector moved over Reverse, it grabbed. This is not all the time. But, it did happen once yesterday and I have never experienced this before since owning this car in the past four years.

After the first change to racing fluid, the shifts felt a hair bit softer than 100% Mobil1. This is not a misprint. The trans shifted a hair softer, although much quicker, after the first installment of racing fluid.

Now after the second changes, the shifts are more firm than with 100% Mobil1 ATF. During shifts, I can feel the clutches grabbing with authority. This is *not* a harsh impact like an old-fashioned shift kit. This is a firm, authoritative engagement into the next gear. Under light throttle, the shift will gentle push your head back an inch if your neck muscle is relaxed.... well with my light car it does.

Zero hint of shudder. I try to induce shudder. I ease into the throttle while going up slight inclines as the converter locks at 50 mph. Nothing but a butter smooth, yet authoritative, engagement.

Overall, I am very pleased with the fluid. I feel that I am slightly quicker due to less time lost during shifts.

I will be the first to admit that I am hyper-sensitive to changes in my car. Thus, reader beware that your experiences may vary from mine. The racing fluid has made a huge difference in my tranny's personality. Damn good riddance to "Clark Kent". Hello "Superman". At this point in time, my only regret is that I didn't use racing fluid years ago.


Installment Three is scheduled for this weekend. Another 3 qts of RedLine racing ATF.




STATUS
---------

Odometer = 54721

Previous mixture =
40 % RedLine Lightweight Racing ATF
60 % Mobil 1 Synthetic

Changes =
Single drain
Refill with 3 qts RedLine Lightweight Racing ATF

New mixture =
63 % RedLine Lightweight Racing ATF
37 % Mobil 1 Synthetic

Overall viscosity =
cSt @ 40º C = 28.0
cSt @ 100º C = 5.8

Inaccurate

IHC,

Here are some additional items for you beyond the general update directly above.

I do know what you mean by the cold shifting performance. I have focused on this for the past year or two to help me judge my weight reduction improvements. I have a lot of experience in evaluating my cold shifting performance.

As stated in the general update directly above, the shifts (cold too) was a hair bit softer after the first change. Now after the second change, the shifts (cold too) are about 2 or 3 hairs firmer than the 100% Mobil1.

Regarding the engagement time. With the first change, there was no perceivable difference. With the second change, yes. If I move the gear selector slightly slow from Park to Drive, the Reverse will engage. There is *no* harsh engagement or grabbing as it goes into gear. But, I do perceive some difference of it grabbing sooner and firmer. But, nothing scary or harsh. I know why you are asking (slamming harshly into gear), and I have been keeping an eye on this aspect too.



Below is meant just as an additional datapoint.

I encounter something enlightening recently. I discovered an explanation to a mystery that I have lived with for years. During hard downshifts as I aggressively go wot at around 60 mph, my trans would get confused and stumble over itself. The car would not be pulling during this brief period of confusion. This would happen very seldom, about once every month or two months. I had just learned to live with it. But, I have always wondered what was going on with the trans. I would just think "Damn stupid computer".

I now know the cause. The first day after my first change, I was fortunate enough to have this situation occur. Here is what was happening with my previous Mobil 1 fluid.

As the trans performed an aggressive wot downshift at 60mph, the trans would drop into 2nd gear. But, the PCM would decide to shift into third gear BEFORE the trans actually completed the downshift into 2nd. So, this created an illusion of a stumble as the trans was almost dropped into 2nd and then shifted into 3rd... all happening as one continuous event. Messy.

Now, with the racing fluid allowing the shifts to occur quicker, this same event produces an awesome exhibition of shifting performance. The PCM downshifted and grabbed second and immediately shifted into third.

The difference here is that the car was pulling the whole time. And, the shifts occurred so close together that my mind did not have time to comprehend what was happening until a few moments later. Instead of a convoluted mess of the two shifts stepping on each other, producing a moment of confusion.... now I can perceive two distinct separate shifts occurring extremely quickly.



And below is another datapoint.

For the past few years, the TL Diet would cause the trans to pause (power cutout) a long time (relatively speaking) when shifting from 2-3 at approx 1/2 throttle. I had just accepted this as a small quirk. Understandable. The PCM programming does not expect the car to accelerate so briskly with 1/2 throttle.

I was wrong. After that first change to racing fluid, this situation totally disappeared.

BostonSilverTypeS

subscribed....IHC mentioned this thread on the turbo thread as I was trying to find how much power auto trans holds and this Redline racing ATF is most definitely going to be going in my car in my next trans fluid change....good stuff InAccurate

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Great job Inaccurate. Your paving the road for the rest of us. I thank you for your research.

NVA-AV6 had mentioned that once the turbo gets installed, it may be a wise to lift your foot off the throttle for like a 1/2 second between shifts. These were his words...

"As for ATs, if you really want to keep from destroying the clutch packs lift during shifting, when you feel the gear disengauge lift off the throttle and give it 1/2 a second to engauge the next gear before slamming back down on the throttle, this will give the clutch and TC lockup a chance to engauge before hitting them with the TQ and prevent excess slipping of the clutches which is what then kills the trannies either by sludging up the solenoids and valve bodys with friction particles or by just killing the friction material all together. I have also seen a few with blown TQ converter lockups. So just like with MT lift off the throttle for shifts, but once the gear is engauged slam it."

Is trying to avoid the clutches slipping when you are going WOT from 1st to 2nd to 3rd and so on, the same as coasting in 4th/5th gear and smashing the gas to go into 2nd? Isnt this the same thing as far as damaging the clutch packs?

This is what I can see happening. If you going WOT in 2nd gear and you lift your foot off the throttle when the trans is shifting to 3rd, and you wait to long to hit the gas the again, the trans will upshift to 4th or even 5th at that point since youll be going about 65mph. Then, since you waited too long and your now in 5th gear lets say, you go WOT from 5th gear and you have harsh downshift which may cause slipping as well.

To me, it seems like the best way to save the clutch packs and not destroy the trans with the turbo is to drive in SS mode. What do you guys think? You can take you foot off the gas between shifts so you avoid damaging the clutches with all that extra power but you will stay in that gear and dont have to worry about the trans upshifting on its own.

Since we already have those proven % numbers on increasing holding power with the Type F fluid, how does that change the situation?

Inaccurate

Please Note - The following is just my conjecture and theories.



There are sensors in the trans that can detect clutch slippage. There is a Speed Sensor on the trans' mainshaft (input) and another sensor on the Output Shaft. The PCM can detect when any clutch pack has fully engaged via these two sensors (my conjecture).

I am becoming more convinced that my theory (see quote above) is accurate. I can think of no other way in which the trans is able to change it's shifting speed base on a fluid change.

The Z1 has excessive FM. People that switch to an ATF with normal amounts of FM (M1, D4, Amsoil) notice a much quicker shift speed. When I switched to racing fluid, thus lowering the FM more, I notice even quicker shift speeds.

We can state that shift speed is inversely proportional to the amount of FM. Shift speed increases as FM decreases. My theory is that lower FM allow the clutch packs to fully engage much quicker due to less slippage. The PCM will not resume engine power until the PCM has detected that the clutch pack has fully engaged. With less FM, the PCM reapplies engine power much quicker (i.e. faster shift speed) because the clutch pack locked quicker.

Below is a quote from RacingHart. He uses a 75 hp shot of nitrous (approx).


It is my opinion that this is further proof that my theory is accurate. His trans had a slower shift speed with nitrous because the Z1 ATF was having difficulty trying to get the clutch pack to engage under the force of the nitrous. That is, he was experiencing clutch slippage. It is my opinion that this slippage would not cause a computer error code (DTC error) because the computer is programmed for slippage to be occurring at this stage. The computer has no way of knowing the time frame. That is, the computer is unaware of the prolonged slippage (i.e. time interval).

The computer just thinks that slippage is suppose to happen at this point. The computer just waits until the sensors have detected that the pack has fully engaged. There is no clock in the computer so the computer is unaware that the slippage is excessive. Finally, the clutch pack does engage in spite of the slippery Z1.

Inaccurate

Bert,

I am very familiar with NVA-AV6's statement. It was this statement that caused me to begin this racing fluid endeavor. It was the inspiration for this thread.

I agree that this includes wot downshifts too. Anytime that there would be a gear change while under full throttle would be the problem. To change any gear (upshift or downshifting), various clutch packs need to become engaged. As described in my post directly above, the slippery Z1 will cause the clutch pack to have difficulty with fully engaging.

I agree that it would be tricky timing to know when to let off of the gas pedal and for how long of time. I think that *for myself*, I would lack the discipline to be able to do this. When I am releasing 350-400 whp to run amuck within other traffic around me, I am going to be fully concentrating on finding a clear path for those horses to run thru. I (speaking for just myself) would not have the ability to release the pedal at that precise moment to anticipate the shift.

The SS is not the answer. The SS still has the same issue with needing the clutch packs to become fully engaged. In this regards, there is nothing different with the SS than fully auto mode.

But, I do agree that the SS would give you the control over when the shift is about to occur. And, the SS would prevent the trans from trying to upshift into a higher gear because it thought that you was finished with your aggressive acceleration.. However in practice (real life), I do not see this being the answer. We all know that the SS is too slow to respond to our commands.

In my opinion, if you are needing to baby the shift to prevent damage, then this means that you are wanting to accelerate quickly. And, doing this pausing between gear changes is going to be very counter productive to you accelerating quickly.

You present the magic question - "How will the racing fluid change the situation?". This whole thread is dedicated to this question. You, me, IHC, and hopefully others will find the answer to this question.

Regarding the "proven % numbers on increasing the holding power". I would not say that we have proven numbers. We have just one source stating some round numbers. I am in the process of getting us some real numbers.. some very concrete numbers from a very reliable source (indisputable). It will take me sometime to do the research. I hope by Monday that I will be able to present the information.

I hate cars

Just a couple points.

If you have a clutch pack that has no slip, you could send 1,000hp through it and there would be no additional wear on the clutches. It's the slip on the shifts that really get them.

Unlike a manual trans with a large dry clutch, the clutch packs in an auto are not supposed to be slipped much. Shifts are measured in miliseconds or that's the goal anyway. The clutch material and trans fluid can be burned very easily by long shifts and once the surface is burned holding power goes waaay down.

These little clutches have to deal with 400+ lbs of torque depending on the gear. You have two shafts or gears turning at different speeds and the clutches are applied to lock them together when a shift occurs. It's this matching of speeds that causes the wear. The quicker you can get the two locked together, the less wear and heat. Since they are bathed in trans fluid, the friction characteristics of the fluid can drastically change the friction of the clutches.

Think about a manual trans when you slip the clutch too much. It overheats and loses it's holding power, usually permanently. It's the same with the auto except it's less tolerant of slip.

Look at what you do when you upgrade a manual trans clutch. You usually have a pressure plate with a much higher clamping force. This is the equivalent of raising the line pressure in an auto.

Since the wear occurs on shifts while you have two parts matching speed and locking via the clutches, letting off the gas, letting it shift, and getting back on the gas will virtually eliminate wear but it's not the quickest way to drive especially on a turbo car that would have to spool back up. You're taking away one of the large advantages of an auto and turbo combo.

You also have static holding of the clutches, how much torque they can hold without slipping once locked together. This usually isn't an issue, the problem is usually with the shift itself.

BostonSilverTypeS

+1 ^^....the soft shifting kills automatic trans more than harsh shifts, that I do know and agree 100%

I hate cars

Yes sir. It's usually a tradeoff of clutch wear or breakage of hard parts/driver comfort when designing these things. Unfortunately the Honda engineers and many others put comfort before long life. It seems through Inaccurate's testing of the non FM Type-F that you can't have too little FM with the DBW throttle. And we shouldn't have to worry about the extra shock of the hard shifts because the shifts won't become harsh due to the DBW.

So in reality I truly believe we're best off with the racing fluid with no FM. This is for the racers that want the trans to hold up to the turbo power and for the stock TL that the owner wants to last 500,000 miles.

Of course I would not recommend this fluid freely until we've put many more miles on it but it's definitely looking good.

Off topic but I'm starting to think this Redline D4 could possibly have just a touch more FM than the Amsoil ATD based on the shift characteristics. It's hard to tell though because the temperatures around here have been fluctuating like crazy so I can't say for sure.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Inaccurate and IHC,

so you guys think that using SS more to switch gears post-turbo would cause more wear and tear vs. using auto mode?

Inaccurate,
Have you tried using the SS mode with the type-F fluid? How are the shifts?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Today I did my first drain and fill with amsoils super shift racing fluid. So far, Ive done about 50 miles. Im not going to lie, I really haven't noticed much difference in the shifts. It looks like the 3rd to 4th shift at WOT happens quicker but its hard to tell. Im going to make a video tomorrow and compare it with the other vids I posted on page 2. There is no shudder and I haven't experienced any negative side effects yet. I will be doing another drain/fill with amsoils super shift fluid in the very near future.

pimpin-tl

Well like some have said, you really won't notice a difference till you do at least two drains and fills.

I ordered my Amsoil ATF (a full case). Can't wait to do it myself.

Inaccurate

I would doubt that the SS would prevent more wear. The only way in which the SS might help is *if* the SS mode uses higher line pressure. And, I do not have this information if SS causes a higher line pressure.

Good question although.

I normally do not use SS. And, I have not done so since using the racing fluid. But, I agree that I should try just for curiosity.




Whoop !!!!


As pimpin said, it was not until my second refill that I noticed a difference.

As you said, the important thing is that you *didn't* feel anything negative. "No news is good news!"

I am looking forward to hear your thoughts after the second refill.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Im more concerned with holding power instead of faster shifts so type-F fluid seems to be the answer for now. Faster shifts would be nice and maybe Ill notice that more when I do my 2nd drain/fill. If it wasn't raining I would swap another 3 quarts right now lol

WHEEELMAN

iTrader: (14)

Would this fluid have the same positive effects for an 03-05 Honda Odyssey/Pilot 5 speed auto?


It would be bolted up to my J30A1 in my accord w/ the same 03-05 Oddy/Pilot ECU running the engine and tranny.
(will be installed by NVA-AV6 in the future)

pimpin-tl

It should.

Inaccurate

You are right Bert. The goal of this racing fluid project is to increase the torque holding capacity of our automatic transmission.

The shift feel is mentioned just as a way in which to gauge the hopeful improvements in the clutch grabbing ability.

BostonSilverTypeS

so how much total fluid is in our trans 6qts? sorry if this has been mentioned somewhere...

I hate cars

Exactly. Quicker shifts are an indicator of extra holding power. I can't go into detail because I'm on my phone. Internet has been down for 2 days.

Inaccurate

I have to say this or I will burst. The racing fluid is

A W E S O M E

On Wednesday, I was merging onto the freeway. When my car shifted into 4th gear, wot, 100 mph, it hit solid and hard…. Far beyond what I had ever felt this car do or thought that the car was capable of doing.

Today I did a 5 mph – 80 mph onto the freeway. It ripped every gear… hard, quick shifts. I can only imagine what the car sounds like from the outside. To me, it sounded like a good bike rider on a superbike shifting gears.

Bah, bah, bah

Not…… Bah, silence, bah, silence, bah.


I am working on a research paper. This is a real research paper based on first-hand data. I purchased four scientific papers from SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers), each paper is $16.

A Comparison of Methods for Evaluating Automatic Transmission Fluid Effects on Friction Torque Capacity (click here)
Effect of Commercial Oil Additives on Wet Friction Systems (click here)
Bridging the Gap Between DexronSr-Ii and Type F Atf (click here)
Static Friction--What It Is, What Affect It (click here)

The papers are basically just confirming what we have stated already in this thread, which is a good thing. According to the Society of Automotive Engineers, the premise of this racing fluid project is sound.

It will take me probably all of next week to write the research paper. Look for the post in a week or week and a half.

Side note – I will be doing another 3 quarts of racing ATF tomorrow.

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

Great news! Where did you get your fluid?

Thanks for all your hard work!

Inaccurate

cabrio,

I order mine directly from the RedLine website.

RedLine Website (click here)

Slpr04UA6

Glad to hear all the info! I may have to try this, given a little more time (just changed to the Z1 fluid 3 months ago). How much of the racing fluid, % wise would you say you have in there now?

Inaccurate

63 % RedLine Lightweight Racing ATF
37 % Mobil 1 Synthetic

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

You plan on going 100% Redline?

I hate cars

I can't wait to see the paper! And thanks so much for taking the time to write it up.

There are so many things I say that I learned from racing and building that many people don't believe because there's no documentation to back it up, it will be nice to have this available.

Just a few months ago people were still telling the horror stories (scare tactics) of going with a non factory fluid. Now we're running a straight race non FM fluid with great results. It took a while but I think we're breaking new ground with the TLs.

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

Do you think these results are applicable to gen2 CLs?

Inaccurate

Yes, it is my hope to have 100% RedLine Racing ATF.

Heres the drain/fill percentage chart
1=39.5%
2=63.4%
3=77.8% <--- I am here. Did it today. Not test driven yet.
4=86.6%
5=91.9%
6=95.1%
7=97.0%
8=98.2%
9=98.9%
10=99+% <--- I hope to be here on May 1 2010

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

That is ten three quart drains?

I hate cars

The only thing that wouldn't have be applicable is the shift quality (not speed) descriptions if the gen2 CLs don't have the DBW. I have no idea if they do or don't but shifts would likely feel a little firmer than the TL on the same fluid, not a bad thing at all but you may want to gradually introduce the fluid with a 1X3 instead of an instant 3X3..

Inaccurate

cabrio,

Thank you for asking. I had been meaning to comment on this topic.

I do *NOT* recommend for any Second Generation TL owners to use the racing ATF.

I have only driven just one second gen. We have a 2002 TL-S as a family car. I have driven it a lot.... factory freak fast I might add

The second gen TL does not have the pause in power delivery that the third gen has during shifts. This particular car (representative of all second gens ) hits and lunches forward every time it shifts into second gear. And, this is with Z1 fluid.

I would not want to experience this car with racing ATF.