e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

Will do.

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

Will do, thanks.

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

Did the D&F yesterday it took a bit more than 3 quarts of Redline regular Racing, Shifts feel crisper, the car actually chirped into third today which I have never heard before.

Thursday if all goes well I'll do the Redline Light Racing.

Inaccurate

cabrio,

Damn dude, you caught a third gear scratch? Awesome.

Now that would take a miracle to get a 3G to catch a scratch

Thanks for the update. I had been wondering how things went for you.

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

It was the first time I got all the way into it after my 3.6 build. I just passed the break in interval. I was astounded!

I hate cars

Thats awesome to hear how this stuff shifts without the DBW. Be careful with the lightweight fluid. It still has the extreme pressure of the planetary and differential gears to deal with. I don't recommend it straight.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

^LOL IHC, can you clear your inbox again

Inaccurate

I totally agree. The RedLine Lightweight is too thin.

Even while I was researching ATF at the "Society of Automotive Engineers" website, I learned that having too thin ATF will cause severe wear on the gears. There are several SAE papers discussing this very issue of too thin ATF.

However, the RedLine Racing is too thick for my taste, Cst 10. Typical ATF is Cst 7'ish. For any s/c, nitrous, or turbo folks (Bert, that's you), I recommend mixing 2 qts Racing + 1 qt Lightweight. This will give you a 8.3 Cst fluid approximately. This 8.3 is heavier than typical ATF, but just what the doctor ordered for a high torque application. The thick 8.3 will help protect the gears under the increased torque of the turbo, s/c, or nitrous.

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

How many lightweight should I use in my final drain? there is none in there now.

Thanks.

Inaccurate

SHORT ANWSER = Use 3 qts of Lightweight.




LONG ANWSER =

Assuming you had 100% Z1 at the beginning.

After the first drain, you filled with 3 qts Racing = 8.4 cSt overall

After the second drain, you filled with 3 qts Racing = 9.1 cSt overall

Comment - That 9.1 cSt is getting thick in my opinion.



If you refill with 3 qts of Lightweight for your third drain (which I recommend), you will have the following.

After the third drain, if you filled with 3 qts Lightweight = 7.4 cSt overall

OR,

If you use 3 qts Racing for that third refill, you will have the following.

After the third drain, if you filled with 3 qts Racing = 9.4 cSt overall

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

I had 100% fresh Z1. (less than 1500 miles on it)

I did exactly what you said & have four quarts of lightweight & a bit less than1 quart of regular left.

it seems I have been getting a bit more than 3 quarts out.

I have about 120 mile drive today and then I will d&f tomorrow with lightweight.

Thanks

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

Did the last 4 today. (3.5 actually) lightweight. I got busy & then the car was getting the front end painted for 8 days, I got it back Tuesday and I was busy the rest of the week.

I have driven about 30 miles and it feels great. I'll report after I get a few more miles on it.

TLer trash

I've been following this thread for a while, and you guys have convinced me to try this. My only question is what is your concern about the added viscosity of the redline racing? I'm doing this on a 2nd gen trans, which has more of a problem with fluid flow to the clutches than the 3rd gen ones.[at least that seems to be the consensus] Will the thicker fluid exacerbate this? At this point I've added a little over 3 qts of the redline and haven't noticed any difference.

I hate cars

From what I remember about the second gens is the second gear gears were overheating and coming apart, sometimes locking up the transmission. The cure was to spray more oil on it. I assume you already have the updated oil jet kit, right.

Now, was the problem a lack of flow causing the over heat?

Was the problem a bad design so they just sprayed more fluid on it to help cool it?

I don't know but it's a catch 22 situation. Most autos are more or less a fixed pressure setup. A vane style pump with a main line pressure control and many other pressure controls for various things along the way. In such a setup a lighter fluid should give more volume at the same pressure. Since the pump is capable of waaay more volume and pressure than the trans typically runs and pressure is regulated, it should not take a dip with the thinner fluid like would happen if it was engine oil in the engine.

So in that scenario you have more flow which is a good thing.

On the other hand, if you're getting bad localized heating in the second gear region, you're going to want the thicker more robust fluid.

I'm sure one drain and fill with the lightweight stuff won't hurt but I would keep it at just one.

The so called clutch problem they had was not a clutch problem at all but an electircal problem that caused the clutches to wear too quickly.

This non FM fluid whether it's the light stuff or heavier stuff will prolong the clutch life regardless.

I hate cars

One more thing to think about, the trans fluid, if it's ay 7cst at full temp, through the warmup process it can be over 120cst easily. I would not worry about going too thick when you think that it can be 12-15 times thicker at startup. There is however a minimum thickness that if you exceed will accelerate metal wear. I'm not saying the Redline lightweight fluid is past that level, not at all, but it takes away a little of that safety cushion.

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

I did 3 Racing/3 Racing /3.5 Lightweight Racing to get to the 1/2 quart over it has been running at for over 30k miles, trans & car run great!

Inaccurate

As a quick update, my trans is still running GREAT

IHC - Thanks. God bless you for all of your good deeds, online and in real life

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

I appreciate the hard work of IHC & Inaccurate

I hate cars

LOL. Just trying to make up for all the BAD ones I did in the past.

TLer trash

This is the first I've heard that an electrical problem is the cause of the clutch wear; please explain. Anyway, I wasn't talking about the oil jet problem. Generally reliable sources on the 2nd gen side agree that low oil flow to the second or third clutch is the culprit. Supposedly the new case design addresses this problem. Occasionally reports of solenoid screens plugged with torque converter debris. What's the lowdown on this electrical problem?

Inaccurate

Please see the linked thread below for information regarding the "electrical problem".

Very interesting conversation with my transmission builder on the TL (click here)

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

I did the solenoids last year big improvement.

TLer trash

Do you mean sensors and not solenoids, or did you do them all?

Yukoncole

iTrader: (1)

This is some very detailed and thus very good info! My car has not had a flush and fill in over 35K!! I just ordered a case of Redline D4 today prior to reading this but I feel I made the right choice! I am running a NA 3.2 TL with minor mods currently and have no intentions of Turbo or SC upgrades in the future. I plan on doing a 3x3 once I get the fluid and also plan on replacing my 3rd and 4th Presure switching being I am at 86K now!!

Inaccurate

Yukoncole,

The D4 does sound like a good choice for you needs. The D4 will offer many of the same benefits that the racing fliud offers, just in a smaller degree. The D4, compared to the Z1, will give you quicker and firmer shifts.

Yukoncole

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for your extensive knowledge and sharing it with everyone! I joined this thing a few years back but just in the last few weeks starting devoting time to it and due to people involved in threads like this one I have learned a lot!! Have a great day!

kjelly

So, we're okay with all D4? Looking at changing out my Castrol Import-MV along with the switches next month...

lemonade

Sorry to hijack this thread, want to ask a noob question.
So i change 3 qt of ATF fluid every 2 oil change instead of doing the 3X3 thing.
Is the Honda Z1 an inferior product compare to those redline you guys are discussing? I just want to keep the transmission as long as possible, what i care is longevity. Any comment on this? Thanks in ahead.

Inaccurate

Yes.

The Z1 is very much inferior than RedLine. Huge difference in quality. The Z1 ATF is among the worst fluids according to the common consensus. Whereas, the RedLine a high quality, true synthetic fluid from a company with an outstanding reputation.

For longevity, the most important thing is to change the fluid extremely often. Changing the fluid often will freshen the fluid before it "wears down" and will flush out the wear particles.

For longevity, I would do a single drain (3 qts x 1 drain) of the ATF every time that the engine oil was changed if Z1 was being used.

If Amsoil or RedLine ATF was being used, I would do a single drain (3 qts x 1 drain)approximately every 15-20 thousands miles. The drain would be to flush out the wear particles more so than to refresh the worn-down fluid.

The above is based on my opinion and anal personality. I am not able to cite any references to support my claims. It is just what I would do... and it is what I have actually done. Prior to switching to RedLine, I had used Mobil-1 synthetic ATF. I changed the Mobil-1 ATF *every* time I changed engine oil, which is once every 3,000 miles. I have done this for the past 55,000 miles. By the way, I had used Mobil-1 engine oil too prior to switching to RedLine engine oil a few months ago.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Am I the only one using amsoils type f? Everyone seems to be jumping on the redline bandwagon.

I have atleast 2000 miles on this fluid so far and I have NO issues so far except a very responsive and quick shifting transmission.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I just noticed that the rubber mount on top of the trans is cracked. I just noticed this and Im wondering if this has anything to do with the harder shifts we are now getting from the type-f fluid. What do you guys think? These mounts look so flimsy.

Inaccurate

Not all is the this fault of the racing ATF. Our 3G TL has NOTHING resembling a "hard shift". Even with the racing fluid, the shifts are NO WHERE near being "hard".

Using the oem motor mounts and oem lower control arm bushings as a reference point, this crack in the trans mount is "normal and expected" in my opinion.

-- The stuff below is just me rambling. Read only if you are bored

If you have ever been in a car with a real racing automatic trans, then you would know what a hard shift is really like.

Back in my days, we had General Motors PowerGlides, T350's, and T400's automatic transmissions. We would add things called a "manual valve body" or add a B&M Shift Kit to the oem valve body. With a modified valve body in one of those GM trans, those where hard shifts. Even under extremely light throttle, the shifts would violently jerk your head *way* back and the rear wheels would chirp during shifts. Usually you would hear a "boom" sound during shifts too as the whole car was *slammed* into the next gear.

This is what I grew-up with in my days. My street racing car had a B&M built T400 auto trans with a complete manual valve body. The manual valve body required me to shift it. Similar in the way of having your TL in Sport Shift mode. But, mine was that way all of the time. It would not shift automatically at all. We used a thing called a B&M "ratchet shifter" to manually shift gears.

By the way, B&M (click here) is the name of the only major company back in my days that offered performance stuff for automaitc transmissions.

Even my daily grocery-getter had a B&M Shift Kit. It would always, and I mean always and unavoidable, catch a second gear scratch (chirp the tires going into second gear). This made life "interesting" when there was a cop traveling beside me..... second gear chirp... hell, hope he doesn't notice

Often I would lean my body way forward and put my head facing down immediately before the 1-2 gear shift in anticipation of the jerk. By leaning forward, my head would experience much less whiplash.

pimpin-tl

Hmmm, when cold they are hard. But warm, it is smooth. But I will say full throttle it now sometimes can break my tires loosing shifting to 2nd gear with Amsoil in it.

nate_0022

iTrader: (2)

So if i'm looking to do a trans fluid flush 3x3. Coming off of the Z1, should I be doing a complete replacement with the D4, or slowly introducing the D4 to the trans? When I start adding the Type F whould I be doing what Inaccurate is doing flushing 3 quarts of D4 and filling 3 quarts Type F, then maybe a week later flush 3 quarts replace 3 quarts Type F?

VQPower37

I changed all of the fluid together by doing a 3x3 with the d4. 2000 miles later no problems ... changing it all in one shot is just less of a hassle IMO

Inaccurate

Nate,

I am a bit confused. Do you want to replace your Z1 with D4 or with the Type F ?

You will need to do multiple drain/refills. The timing between each drain/refill is not critical. Just do what is convenient for you. With each successive drain/refill, you will be reaching a higher percentage of that fluid that you are adding, and a less percentage of the previous fluid.

It is up to you to decide how quickly you wish to reach your goal. Also, it is up to you to decide what percentage of the new fluid is acceptable to you. Nearly everyone agrees that doing three drain/refills is good enough, which will give you 78% of new fluid and 22% old fluid.

Check this linked thread below to learn why you must do multiple drain/refills -

The RR Journals: ATF drain and refill 3G Garage #C-012 (click here)

Pharonocon

This is a great thread. I am at 33k right now and am about to do 3x3 flush. Everything is really detailed, but sometimes i get a little confused as am not very savvy when it comes to working on cars.

I basically would like to use a mixture of the Lightweight racing ATF and Racing ATF.

It seems to me that you guys are saying to fill with 3qts racing on the first two fill and drains and then on the final one use the lightweight.

Is that right? Because it seems to me that you would mix them for each drain and fill. Can someone clarify due to the mass extent of my noobetry. Thanks.

I hate cars

This brings back so many good memories. It's funny (not in a bad way) to hear what so many people these days consider a harsh shift. My car in stock form broke the tires free everytime it hit second gear. Many, and I mean many people were spinning them out by pulling out in a hurry while turning and having that second gear shift spin them around.

You've never experienced a hard shift until you drive a manual valvebody TH400 behind a 500hp big block on slicks.

As a 17yr old with a fast car and no money, I read the instructions to my friend's B&M kit and figured I could do it without buying a kit. Where B&M used firmer springs on the accumulators I used a steel rod. Where they said to drill a 1/4" hole I drilled a 5/16. I shimmed the heck out of the second gear servo. I guess that's normal for a 17yr old... I ended up with something that would chirp the tires hitting second with my foot off the gas just doing a cold high idle down the street. Totally unnecessary and hard on parts but it was fun and free.

Inaccurate

The mixture ratio is not critical. There is a lot of allowable leeway in the mixture (Racing + Lightweight).

I recommend a mixture of approximately 2/3 Racing + 1/3 Lightweight.

You can either do three (or more) drain/refills with "2 qts Racing + 1 qt Lightweight" for each drain/refill.

-OR-

You can do two drain/refills with Racing and a single drain/refill with Lightweight.

I have not worked out the math. So, I can't say what the final mixture would be with the second method. But, either method would produce similar overall mixtures.

If you are still undecided on which route to take, then I recommend doing the first method that I mentioned, which is -

Do three (or more) drains, and refill with "2 qts Racing + 1 qt Lightweight" each time.

leedogg

My baby just turned 100k, and I got her new gear sensors, Amsoil oil change and Redline ATF 'type F' 3x3. The car now runs f'n fantastic. Better than new even. Not sure what the lightweight stuff is for... but so far the type f runs beautifully.