I hate cars

That one is pretty bad... What I later found out is the particular fluid I used decreased the dynamic holding power while slightly increasing the static holding power. It wasn't even a true Type F.

Inaccurate

IHC - Can you delete one or two PM from your inbox so that I can send you one?

Inaccurate

Bert,

Thanks for the link. It was a fun read.

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

I have 13k till my 105k mile service. I have never done a 3x3 on my transmission yet, and when I did change it (drain and fill once/ 1x3) it was of different fluid (from whatever was in it before). Do you think it can wait? Shifts aren't as smooth as I'd like them to be, but they seem fine. Wanted to buy all the parts and do everything at the same time just so my car feels like brand new when I'm done. Going with Redline Racing ATF of course. (Timing Belt/Water Belt, Belts, Spark Plugs, completely drain and fill coolant, brake fluid (never done before also for 50k miles at least), change suspension (90k miles and original suspension - going A SPEC M/T), seafoam, new Continental DWS, and 3rd/4th sensors).

hleapha

FOREWORD:
Thank you to all contributors esp IHC and Inaccurate, this has been very informative and a great read! I have learned so much about how our TM's shift and why my car has been doing the shutter (it makes me shutter too).

BACKGROUND:
I now have 109k but purchased the '05 base TL with 75k. I don't know the status but it was svc'd by the stealership so it most likely had Z1. I did a 3x3 at 80k with Castrol import ATF. The shutter has returned and I am up for a 3x3.

THE MEAT:
I know I need to do the 3rd/4th sensors.
I want to do a 3x3 with Redline. I have all the info I need about the Light Weight and Regular Racing Type F, I'm just trying to decide for myself because I found a deal on 12 qt case for $101+$8 shipping at Racer Parts Wholesale but can get $9.95/qt + Free Shipping over $100 at OGRacing.com which is what I would do for a mix-match.

I am a money guy and like to save it. Now I want to do what's most cost effective while giving me longevity. I can get Mobil 1 ATF for less than $50 for 9 qts. Can I go further on my 3x3 intervals with the Redline? If so how much, 60k 100k, 100000K?!?

Also, since I mentioned my slight TM problems along with my high mileage, should I DO or NOT DO some sort of TM cleaning, like with that Seafoam Transmission cleaner, or would this break loose stuff (like clutch pads) that I don't want loose.

Also, I hear about a Magnefine inline filter. I assume this is a mod, but is this better than replacing the stock filter? I am more inclined just to change the stock filter, but is either necessary? For instance, has anyone broken down a used stock filter and seen failure or over clogging?

I know this was a lot, but I thought I would add my after using a whole day of work to read through this!

I hate cars

If Mobil One made a racing "type F" non FM fluid, I would say to use it if it were cheaper. You're still not getting the ester base oil of Redline but it's much better than Z1.

However, Redline is not that much more money and when you figure the "type F" fluid can cut wear by more than 50%, it's very cose effective to run the Redline.

The non FM fluid is the key here.

I would dare to say that with a Magnefine filter installed and a fresh factory filter, you *should* be good for 100,000 miles on Redline. I plan to do it every 50,000 just to be safe.

Inaccurate

From a cost perspective, get the RedLine Racing and do a 3x3.

The Mobil1 will not offer the total protection that the RedLine can offer. As IHC said, the RedLine is a superior quality oil that can be left in the trans for the remainder of the car’s life. Over the long term, the smart money is on the Redline…. Redline eliminates the wear within the trans and the Redline will keep working over the long haul.

08TLEE

I would NOT wait, but that's me. From previous posts on this thread, Z1 is crap, and that next 13K *could* be the difference between saving your trans and having to do an expensive rebuild or replacement. You've done a 1x3, but for all you know, the remainder is Z1 that came with the car! So personally I would do a 3x3 with Type F/Lightweight 2:1 mixture, and do the 3rd and 4th sensors now.

That said, there are those here that are far more knowledgeable than me...and of course, you are in the territory where it's *possible* that there is damage done already, and a 3x3 *could* knock something loose and trigger outright failure...I would be looking for particles in that first drain...but you won't know unless you give it a shot.

I have no experience with Seafoam, so I can't comment on it one way or the other.

The other thing is, you don't say if 13K is 2 years from now, or 2 months from now, so it's kind of hard to judge If you're talking two months, then I assume you're doing a lot of highway miles and not shifting that much anyway, so there's less risk in waiting...

Disclaimer: Above advice guaranteed to be worth what you paid for it.

hleapha

Just a note to go along with Inaccurates Redline Racing to Lightweight Racing ratio of 2:1 per every fill, there is a way to even further fine tune the ratio if you were so inclined to.

Now, I should come up with the differential equation (yuck) to do this, but I'm just throwing it out there if there is anyone interested. What I mean is for example, if you wanted less than the 8.3 viscocity coefficient (with 2x10 for regular and 1x4.9 for light), you could do your 3x3's as 3:0, 2:1 and 1:2. OR 3:0, 3:0, and 0:3. Or any combination as they are all different. If you wanted thicker oil you could do it opposite and do a 0:3, 3:0 3:0 OR 1:2, 2:1, 3:0.

All methods are using the same amount in the long run, but you could just fine tune your viscocity. Honestly, I think this is unnecessary as IHC mentions, viscocity of the oil varies so much with temperature, the coefficient is constatly swinging on a spectrum much larger than 7 to 10.

In the long run, I want the most protection. Will doing a 2:1 ratio give me more protection do to the startup and prevent damage? Or will a thicker 3:0 all racing ratio give more protection once the oil is heated causing over all less wear?

WHEEELMAN

iTrader: (14)

OK guys. I'm getting ready to swap over a 5-speed Auto from a 7th gen Accord into my 6th gen accord, along with a J35.

I want to use the Redline to prolong the 5 speed auto tranny but i'm still worried about the detergents, IF ANY, in the Redline Type F fluid damaging the seals in the solenoids as well as damaging the clutch packs -- like NVA-AV6 stated on page 1 of the thread.

I've had work done from him before and I trust him, but I'm not sure if he does have experience with this new Redline formula. I would just hate to run the Redline and down the road, have to replace the tranny again due to the Redline fluid damaging the internals.... We still don't have long term data on its use.


IHC, you got any words that will give me confidence in running the Redline Racing Fluid. lol

I hate cars

You're fine. It has the same detergents as any other fluid. The only real difference is no friction modifiers. I'm around 15,000 miles on it and I believe Inaccurate has more. All the "Racing" designation is for is to designate it has no FM. Inaccurate asked the question of detergents of Dave at Redline and got this response.

AMUA6

iTrader: (7)

Well I recieved my 9 quarts of Racing ATF today and already drained and refilled 3 quarts. And oh my lord I cannot wait to finish the 2x3! Already I notice a difference and have been about 3 miles total. I can barely feel the car shift.

I have 105k miles on the car and the atf had not been changed since the car had been in my possession (from 80k miles) therefore I'm waiting a week before I finish the 3x3, new switches/filter will be going in on the last drain. I'm stoked with this stuff!

Inaccurate

Whoop !!!!

hleapha

1 RD3-0304-12 Red Line Oil Racing ATF - Red Line Oil Racing ATF- Case of 12 Quarts = $101.00
Shipping Rate: $7.75
Subtotal: $108.75
----------------------

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/p...ansmission_Oil

Just ordered a 12qt case shipped for $108.75. That was the best price I found.

AMUA6

iTrader: (7)

^^^ I paid $118 shipped for 9 quarts

hleapha

OUCH! I'd be hating myself too!

hleapha

Racepartswholesale looks like they have good case specials on all their Redline

jhumbo

iTrader: (1)

Except I don't see the Red Line Lightweight Racing ATF on their site

WHEEELMAN

iTrader: (14)

yes, thats where i bought mine.
Later, I will just buy 3 quarts of the lightweight racing at another site. You still save $$$$$

hleapha

They DO stock Lightweight, here is an email from them:

Thank you for your support. We do stock the Lightweight ATF.
Part number RD3-0314. For whatever reason we don't have it on the website. You can call to place the order.
Regards,

Customer Service
www.racerpartswholesale.com
info@racerpartswholesale.com
317-639-0725


PS, they are very quick to respond to emails.

wilztlxs

iTrader: (8)

did the 3x3 last week with 6 quarts D4 and 3 quarts Racing. definitely loving how the transmissions feels

hleapha

I changed out my 3rd and 4th sensors and my AT shifted much more on point, with out shuddering, from my limited amount of testing. This makes me wonder a little about the Type F Racing ATF. I have some arriving by mail today, so I can do a 3x3, but I'm having a slight case of cold feet for a few reasons.

Even though that the clutches with have a quicker lock up, is it possible that as they make contact initially, that more wear would be caused? Basically what I'm getting at is: Is there more reasons than just smooth feeling shifts, that Honda wanted high amounts of friction modifiers? I'm worried that the transmission life may be shortened, as this is still in the experimental stage as far as I'm concerned with just a few test points and really not that many miles.

Another thing that concerned me is the cold starting viscosity at 54 cS compared to Z1's 29 cS. I just think that the pumping system was designed for a thinner fluid. This would lead to less fluid flow and less protection I believe. I think there may be something in mixing the Lightweight Racing to lower this viscocity.

All in all, I am excited about finially putting a quality fluid in my tranny, and I know that this is some high quality oil which tops Z1 in all catagories. I'm just hoping those friction modifiers don't have some alternative purpose that actually causes less wear.

I am admittingly not a AT expert at all, but I would like some feedback. Thanks!

jhumbo

iTrader: (1)

I am not an AT expert either and can't really answer your questions, but I just want to point out that if all you really want is a better fluid and you think that you'd like to keep the friction modifiers there, then you still have the option of using Redline D4.

As for me, I just ordered 2 qts Racing and 1 qt. Lightweight Racing and will be doing a drain and fill soon.

hleapha

I talked with Dave at Redline and he seemed to clear up many of my concerns about the viscosity and the reason for Type F.

I asked: "What are the reasons manufacturers are using Type F's.... is it just for a smoother shift"

Dave: "...basically, Yes."

I asked if it would cause mroe wear, and he said that it wouldn't.

However, he did keep saying that it's not a good idea to use the fluid in my modern car with a lock-up torque converter, which I believe we had. As this causes shuttering during shifts. However, I believe our TL is specifically designed with some features that eliminate this problem. Inaccurate and other believe the TL removes power until the transmission signals the shift is complete, and then reapplies power. So, I reckon if there is not shutter because of the torque converter, then there is no problem. I just hope I'm right.

My car has 110k and has some dirty Castrol ATF (import), I just hope the Redline doesn't over-clean my tranny and cause it to deteriorate.

I hate cars

You can mix with the lightweight racing fluid. But I wouldn't worry. 29cSt is probably at 100F or 40c. Those fluids will be well over 100cSt at starting temps. In cold climates, they will be over 400cSt at startup. The trans can handle a wide range of viscosities. The difference in viscosity is no more than 10-15F. Or said another way, the Redline at 60F is the same viscosity as Z1 at 50F. Not a big difference.

You would experience major shifting problems before you would experience lubrication failure from being too thick.

As far as FM is concerned... A member sent me a document a while back showing what looked to be a paper on the new fluid from Honda. It showed the known issues of too much FM from a certain "Japanese ATF". How they thought the FM would soften shifts. How it did not have sufficient holding power, how it caused slippage and heat and how it ended up causing harder shifts and wear from the bumpshift. It basically shows the Honda has finally recognized their mistake and are pushing the new fluid.

You can help out with a bad base oil by changing very often but it does nothing for the FM problem. I'm getting close to 15,000 miles now and it shifts better than it did when new. This fluid really helps the 1-2 shift. Under low throttle like when barely touching the throttle in a parking lot, shifts are still laid back and soft but they firm up nicely when you're on the throttle.

I've used type F in the GN over the years to tune the shift quality. In that car, it made a huge difference due the ultra high line pressure and no DBW. There was a time illustrated in this thread when I believed the so called engineers and car manufacturers that said the type-F would tear up my clutches and even though my own data showed otherwise over 10 years, I believed them for a while even though they were dead wrong. Just keep in mind, everything you hear from Honda is to keep you buying their fluid. They said even DexIII would cause issues and should be only used in emergencies and drained out as soon as possible. They're completely full of it. All of the shuddering the non FM fluid has fixed should be proof.

I hate cars

Basically, shudder is the only issue and it's non existant on the TL. In fact, this fluid cures shudder in the TL.

If it were a Ford I would say hell no. Every other Ford I've driven has torque convertor clutch shudder under heavy throttle and type F makes it worse.

Even with a 3x3 you're going to have a fair amount of old FM fluid in there so it's not like you're going to have none.

AMUA6

iTrader: (7)

Regardless of the negative things, I am still very pleased with Redline. I now have noticed the shifts being a little more "hard" since my first 3 quarts have mixed in with the old, but not even close to what it was beforehand. I will be finishing the 2x3 Thursday night.

jhumbo

iTrader: (1)

What negative things?

Inaccurate

Fear.

Inaccurate

I really really regret not knowing about using Racing fluid 5 years ago when my car was new.

I have a lot of experience changing my ATF. I change my ATF every time I do an engine oil change. I have since my car had just several thousand miles on it. I have a lot of experience looking at that magnetic drain plug. I pay extremely close attention to stuff stuck on the plug every time I drain the ATF.

After seeing how clean, free of metal needles, free of grime and slime that the drain plug is after using RedLine Racing fluid......... I cringe in retrospect to all of the wear and tear that the trans experienced in the past prior to me switching to RedLine Racing ATF.

Regarding the "experimental stage". The corollary of this applies. One knows that their current ATF (Z1) is inferior because the drain plug shows the evidence with metal needles and black slime (worn away clutch material) on the drain plug. But the person continues to use it.

A sad analogy would be a terminally ill cancer patient. They are very much willing to try any experimental treatments. What do they have to lose? They have hope by trying the experimental treatment. To continue with the status que is sure death.

I hate cars

Very good explanations. I'm getting closer and closer to 100,000 miles and I started with a non approved Amsoil ATD (not the recommended ATF). Judging on shift feel which is only a guess, the ATD has less FM than the ATD. I originally did the ATF for a thousand miles and quickly went to the ATD to get the change I wanted.

I was told by people on bitog that I would surely have a transmission failure. That was at 20,000 miles. It has 97,000 miles now. My math was all messed up, I only have 5,000 miles on the non FM fluid but I have 77,000 using a fluid with much less FM than stock.

As you said, you can do nothing and suffer certain failure or you can take the chance which really isn't a chance at this point.

What I'm seeing is many people who don't take the chance and wait until it's shuddering to switch fluids. The wear has already occured but the non FM fluid extends the life somewhat. They're still on borrowed time. I would rather be proactive and nearly stop wear while the trans still has some life in it.

hleapha

I agree, I did my pressure sensors two days ago and a 3x3 with Redline Racing last night. I'll give a better review as time goes on, but I have 110k and my tranny was shuddering. I drained out that crap that was in there and the plug has loaded with slime and fine metal needles. I'd say about 1/8" worth.

All I'm concerned with is LESS WEAR. If you (Inaccurate) are getting a significant reduction in wear, then how can you really go wrong? Yes, this shifting is MUCH more precise. It's predictable and you can tell what your transmission is doing. I love this. Best yet, you can tell the clutches hook up when it throttles off during shift, its like a floating feeling. You feel the clutches connect and almost pull you forward with their momentum. Then you feel the trottle kick back in after a completed shift. This is a very welcomed change. But still very smooth, it's just a more mechanically sound feeling.

I'll do another drain and fill later and check my plug. I may give some reviews here soon as I get to actually drive the TL some more. Very happy so far!

Mjakaz09TL

iTrader: (7)

I really cannot decide between redline racing, lightweight or d4!! almost 65k miles and car shifting like absolute crap! shuddering all the time between shifts etc. Seems to of started happening within the last couple weeks and getting more noticeable. So going to do the 3 and 4 PS's and a 3x3... prob do one flush a week. Was also considering while at it to replace the atf filter.. any suggestions? Prob going to cost me at least what $200 bux give or take to do myself i assume?

hleapha

Originally Posted by hleapha
1 RD3-0304-12 Red Line Oil Racing ATF - Red Line Oil Racing ATF- Case of 12 Quarts = $101.00
Shipping Rate: $7.75
Subtotal: $108.75
----------------------

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/p...ansmission_Oil

^Thats the price and link for oil (best price anyone's found). I got all the parts for the pressure switches and filter at Delrays www.AcuraOEMparts.com

Here are the parts:

25450-RAY-003 ELEMENT (AT FILTER)
25803-RAY-000 SPRING, PASSAGE (ATF FILTER SPRING)
28600-RAY-003 SWITCH ASSY., AT OIL PRESSURE (PRESSURE SWITCH)
28610-RAY-003 SWITCH ASSY., AT OIL PRESSURE (PRESSURE SWITCH)
90471-PW7-A00 GASKET (10MM) X2 (2 CRUSH WASHER)
91301-RAY-004 O-RING (48.5X2.95) (ARAI) (RUBBER ORING FOR ATFILTER)
91302-RAY-003 FILTER, GASKET (RUBBER AT FILTER GASKET)
WASHER, DRAIN PLUG (12MM) X2 (2 CRUSHWASHERS)


TOTAL IS $99.XX

Delray lists pressure sensors and AT Filter for '04-'06. The site specifies the year and model next to those parts. I figured I'd respond here instead of the PM b/c it may be useful to others.

RECAP:
Those are all the parts I needed for Filter, 3x3 with Redline Racing (Type F), and 3rd and 4th pressure sensors for an '05 base, models other than '04-'06 base will vary.

AMUA6

iTrader: (7)

I skimmed through the fast few prior posts and seemed some one was being pessimistic toward Race ATF. My apologies.

Not sure how to answer this one lol

Turbocoop

iTrader: (3)

Wow, this is some of the best info Ive found on our trannys. You guys have done a ton of research so thanks for letting us get in on your findings.

I just bought a 05 5AT with 91K on it in August and on my first road trip the tranny overheated and started spewing out of the top air vent...anyways, I did the 3x3, changed the factory filter and replaced the 3rd and 4th pressure switches. I also installed an air/air transmission cooler to be safe. I was afraid I cooked the 5th gear clutch pack but it seems to be holding ok in 5th, and it drives pretty good around town at slow speeds. The fluid I used was some cheap ass Shell ATF fluid from NAPA, cause I didnt know if the tranny was done or not.

Do you guys think I should redo the 3x3 and use some Redline D4? I still havent went on a long trip at highway speeds to see if it overheats again...

I hate cars

You should do at least one drain and fill with the racing fluid. No need for the D4. I'll put money that the cheap Shell ATF has less FM and as good or better base oil as Z1 so no worries.

NetDiver

After reading some of the responses in this thread, it sounds like my car would be a good candidate for Racing ATF. I'm at 11k right now, and car still shifts great, but who knows how much wear is occurring daily. I did 1x3 at 9k, with Z1, but next change WILL be Redline. I just don't know if I have the balls to go straight to Racing ATF, or play it safe and go with D4.

I hate cars

Doing a single 1x3 with racing is still playing it very safe. It only gives you about 50% racing. That way, you can drive it around for a month or so and see how you like it. I know it's scary since it's the exact opposite of the OEM fluid but I promise you will never want to go back once you try it.

NetDiver

I think, that's the road I'll take. First 3 quarts of Racing ATF. Drive it around. Do the 2nd 3 quarts of Racing ATF. Drive it some more, and if everything feels right, 3rd 3 quarts of Racing ATF. If something doesn't feel right, I'll do the last 3 quarts with D4. Thanks for the advice.